Victorians! discussion

I loved the tea party at Mrs Jamieson's and found the description of how Carlo got the tea and cream while the human guests were served tea with milk wonderful. It could be argued that such events prove the inconsequential nature of the novel, and point out that the novel has no real core or depth of insight. I would question that. Alexander Pope's "Rape of the Lock" is a biting satire on the folly and the habits of the rich and entitled; in contrast, Cranford is a loving and caring look at a lifestyle and time that was fast fading from the world. The "trivial Things" that Pope turned his eye towards such as clothing, gatherings of people, social conversations and billet doux are all concerns found in Cranford, but in Gaskell' s novel they take on great importance to the residents of Cranford, and they are certainly not trivialized.

To what extent do you find Cranford to be a "light" novel?

Within the social structure of Cranford what particular nuances of social status did you find most interesting? Most irritating? Are there any conventions of social status in Cranford that you (or someone you know) still follow or maintain today?

Which characters are you finding most interesting? Most intriguing? Is there a character that you find annoying?

The episode with Signor Brunoni suggests that the residents of Cranford find the outside world both mysterious and fearful. Whether it be foreign names or the coming of trains the future is arriving in Cranford. What other outside influences have you found in Cranford so far in our reading?

We are halfway through the novel. How many stars would you award it to this point in time?

Tea is synonymous with Great Britain. I found the following book very informative and enjoyable. It traces the way tea plants first found their way from China to the tea leaves in the pots and cups of the British. For All the Tea in China: Espionage, Empire and the Secret Formula for the World's Favourite Drink

This is a fascinating book which chronicles, as the sub-title says, "How England Stole the World's Favourite Drink and Changed History."

I enjoyed reading it with my cuppa.

I enjoyed the opening question of Chapter 8: how to address Lady Glenmire. Up to now, we have only been treated to the social conventions within the Cranford society; the visiting hours, the length of visits, etc.

But here we see consciousness of and desire to adhere to wider social standards. It seems very important to these genteel but definitely middle class ladies to address the "gentry" in the correct manner. The desire to know almost made Mrs. Pole violate the visiting standards; she arrived at the earliest possible acceptable moment, not allowing for a polite delay to make sure the ladies were fully ready to receive her.

And, of course, after all that concern, the Cranford ladies are told that they are not good enough to call on a "noble sister-in-law."

And then how delightful that Mrs Jamieson, whose house "was not the gayest, liveliest house in the world," had to relent and invite the ladies in after all. And how additionally delightful that Lady Glemmire doesn't act noble at all, but likes to be treated just as one of the ladies.

I admit that I was pleased to see Mrs Jamieson brought down a peg, and was only sorry that the taking down didn't extend adequately to Mr Mulliner.

I also enjoyed the Lady Glenmire episodes... The "social standards" or manners proved in that case to only keep people at a distance, and draw firm lines between the different social classes that kept potential friends apart.

And speaking of social standards, one of the most touching aspects of this novel is how manners or politeness help the ladies to cope with their poverty... I can't bring up any specific incidents, but whenever there's something they can't afford, they'll say they don't really care for it, etc. They never directly bring up their hardships or their tight budgets.

They're all middle class brought down a notch, and they all know it, but they all help each other "keep up appearances" and finesse over harsh truths with little white lies... "I don't care for pudding," when there isn't any because money's tight, etc.

These manners they all try to keep up are relics of some older, more genteel world that they want to recapture and can't let go of... So maybe they don't have the money and the titles, but at least they can have their dignity and their Dr. Johnson.

Everyman and Dee

The social rules and conventions do come from, as Dee noted, a"more genteel world." While no world or even society is perfect, the inhabitants of Cranford attempt to be civil to one another. Together, the inhabitants form a "social insurance" in order to offer protection, safety and dignity towards one another.

While one should never read history forward, or equally as precarious, wish for another bygone era over our own, there are many days I wish the world of Cranford was present more often than it is.

There is no doubt that gentility when coupled with humility is a very attractive trait. Where humility is absent every attempt to conduct oneself with genteel manners is to no avail. Any attempt to disguise a proud spirit will, almost inevitably, fall flat.

Certainly I would take gentility over boorishness any day. Sadly, however, the class system is alive and well in England today, only serving to undermine and to patronise. Such behaviour can never be truly genteel. It is, to my mind, boorishness of the worst kind.

Peter wrote: "To what extent do you find Cranford to be a "light" novel?."

I think you mean light to be inconsequential? My thoughts are that it is written with a light touch, but the skill of Gaskell is that she can address real issues without making it feel obvious or forced (which if I remember correctly is in contrast to 'North and South' and 'Mary Barton; where the problems of industrial society are directly confronted).
I can't recall many novels that take as their main protagonists a community of older ladies? The narrator's anonymity puts the focus firmly on Miss Matty and co, and the concerns they have.
Even when written comically, such as the fear all the ladies have of male robbers, it draws attention to the fact that these 'amazons' are vulnerable. Other sections such as Miss Matty and the letters have a gentle tenderness, which displays the loneliness of ageing when you have no living relatives left without at any point overwriting it.

Peter wrote: "Within the social structure of Cranford what particular nuances of social status did you find most interesting? Most irritating? Are there any conventions of social status in Cranford that you (or someone you know) still follow or maintain today?.."

You ask so many interesting questions, Peter, I think I could write whole essays, but don't worry I'll try not to get carried away :)

Th conversation about how to address a 'Lady' made me think of the one time I met the Duchess of York when she visited a hospital and we were schooled on what we could and couldn't say. And in the Olympics when the Fiji team all knelt to receive medals from Princess Anne. I understand that 'A' list celebrities often have huge lists of demands and who is and isn't allowed to speak to them. So these levels of society may have mutated but are still alive and kicking.

I loved the nuanced way Gaskell explores them. The ladies are obviously in awe of a 'Lady' coming amongst them, until they are told they're not good enough to visit her, then they're scornful that her husband never sat in the House of Lords and refuse to look at her in church. There's a delightful section where Martha is allowed to look at the Lady, but is surprised her mistress isn't more interested in Mrs Smith in her wedding clothes.
When they finally do get to meet her, they are awkward and don't know what to talk about until they realise she's just the same as them, hungry and wanting more bread and butter.

I found this site:

https://gaskellblog.wordpress.com/201...

it has lots of little interesting bits on it, I was looking for what a calash was, and trying to get a good picture of the caps they keep talking about.

Clari wrote: "I found this site:

https://gaskellblog.wordpress.com/201...

it has lots of little interesting bits on it, I was looking for what a calash was, and trying to get a good pi..."

Clari

Thank you for this web site and your comments. Yes, perhaps the word "light" would have been better.

It's funny how our reading directs our thinking. I have just finished The Classic Slum: Salford Life in the First Quarter of the Century which is a first-hand historical look at the underclass of Edwardian England up to and immediately after WWI. While seemingly completely different in focus and subject, the author takes a look at how the underclass worked, lived, survived and created a world of social status that marked their success in life. It was fascinating and eye-opening. Reading it directed and focussed much of my thought and comments on our reading of Cranford.

Clari wrote: "I found this site:

https://gaskellblog.wordpress.com/201...

it has lots of little interesting bits on it, I was looking for what a calash was, and trying to get a good pi..."

Hello again, Clari

Thank you very much.

I have just finished taking a more detailed look at the link to the site you provided us. It is thorough, informative and well-organized and presented. I entered my e-mail address in order to get the updates.

I think anyone interested in Gaskell should take a look. It is certainly well worth the time to check it out.

Still catching up. Tea with the Lady and The Magic Show were both quite funny. I'm starting chapter 10 later today!

Renee wrote: "Still catching up. Tea with the Lady and The Magic Show were both quite funny. I'm starting chapter 10 later today!"

Yes. There is much in the novel to keep one's interest. I enjoyed reading your earlier comments on the narrator. I, too, experienced swings in my reaction to her. Beneath the surface there is much going on.

Gaskell does an interesting thing in her use of first person, I think. She shifts the narrator's age, here in one sentence.

“It was pleasant to suspect that a peeress could be poor, and partly reconciled us to the fact that her husband had never sat in the House of Lords; which, when we first heard of it, seemed a kind of swindling us out of our prospects on false pretences; a sort of “A Lord and No Lord” business."

The way I read this is...
"pleasant [to us] to suspect"...child identifying with ladies?
"a kind of swindling us out of our prospects"...mature seasoned woman laughing at her young impressionable self?

A time reference in chapter 8. Adelaide was queen 1830-1837.

“I should have liked something newer, I confess—something more like the turbans Miss Betty Barker tells me Queen Adelaide wears; but it is very pretty, my dear."