Catholic Thought discussion

Gang, I have to hit the road soon. Will post my comments tonight after I arrive. Hope you are enjoying the bpok. I finished reading everything yesterday, but tried to read the same history in another book, but it was too long elsewhere.

Greetings everyone! I'm home now!

Ok.....so this week our heretic journey culminated in some rather nasty backstabbing, absolutely brutal, public, violent death sentences, more political craziness, and a few more councils. I find this passage of time in our church history really depressing. People were so focused on putting some kind of mankind limitation on God and Christ in their zeal to perfectly capture the understanding of who and what Christ was that the beauty of the mystery of God's presence in our world became eclipsed. The need of mankind to control it's world - politically and through every other means, always has led to it's downfall. And, so we sit on the sidelines and watch the vast Roman Empire bring itself down in a crashing halt as everyone seems to completely lose sight of the real message.

It's easy to see in hindsight. In hindsight you can see the double sin of paying barbarians to fight your battles and murder for you, then watch the battle turn on you instead. In hindsight, the debates defining God can seem disrespectful and unnecessary. I think for me, I can see how everyone sort of noodles through their own understanding of God and Jesus, His coming, and how that happened. It doesn't feel wrong to me to contemplate was Christ a man or a God or a Son or a Creation, etc.? But, in the end, I think the bottom line is God is a mystery to our limited minds that we will never fully understand as long as we are living so far from a full state of grace. Mankind was banished from Eden after pursing knowledge that went beyond what God had provided. And, shortly thereafter came lies and murder and so much more.

I think if we take something away from the heretics, it's the need to listen with open hearts and minds to those around us. To let go of a need to limit our Creator with our feeble minds. To, instead, embrace the mystery of God. To remain thankful that God cared enough to send Christ. We already know the next time will not be ending well for us. It's a stern warning.

Jumping ahead, I had to smile as our Chapter 4 wrapped up with St. Patrick arriving on the scene. I've always loved St. Patrick and it was with a warm heart that I read of his faith and the conversion of Ireland. I found the account a little different from the typical textbook versions I've read, but I still enjoyed it.

I also appreciate the way Dr. Carroll has informed us of the calamity of the times, and yet, within each chapter we see God at work in our world. There is fighting and misbehaving all around, but on the fringes, God is coming through. People are hearing and converting. Their lives are changing. There is hope.

I don't want to go through every twist and turn of these councils, politicians, and such, but I found the accounts in another book I've read very good if you felt lost in the names, dates, and accounts. Try reading The First Thousand Years: A Global History of Christianity . The accounts of the same material there are more straightforward and easier to follow.

I do hate to watch the Roman Empire drop, but I did especially enjoy reading about the Pope's attempts to meet with the Huns. :-)

I hope you are enjoying your reading.

Leslie

Good point, Leslie, that men should leave the mystery of God to Him, and not try to penetrate it which is probably the main cause of the heresy conflicts, and of course goes back to the Garden of Eden. The violence that these conflicts over heresies bring about also seems to me strongly connected to individuals with big egos and political agendas than over ideas themselves.

Carroll takes an interesting point of view on the turbulent times of barbarous invasions, which after the Goths, and Vandals brought in the Huns and the Danube ceased to be any kind of a border protecting “civilized” Rome from the hordes. He sees St. Augustine’s “City of God” growing out of the “City of Man”. This is of course analogous to how historians see the barbarians over time integrating with the Roman “civilization”. We would be fortunate if that happens with the Moslem world moving into Christian world of Europe and North America these days but the two are quite different. We have a heresy that arose from Christianity, separate and militant, moving into the Christian world. Hillaire Belloc warns in “The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed” chapter of his “The Great Heresies” that there is nothing sure that Mohammedanism will not rise again and threaten Europe. He was writing in the mid 1930’s.

Chapter three highlights two important beliefs of the Catholic Faith. The first being that God’s grace is needed for salvation and the second that Mary is the Mother of God. Chapter four addresses the two natures of Christ, fully human and fully divine. There is a quote in chapter four where Dr. Carroll says, “Councils do not eliminate error; they define it, so that the faithful and obedient may know where the truth lies.” The Councils of Nicea (325 AD), Ephesus (431 AD), and Chalcedon (451 AD) are where the “Building of Christendom” takes place. We can see where the heresies of Arianism, Donatism, and those of the Monophysites created quarrels, debates, and even violence but in the end these heresies and “the gates of Hell did not prevail against the Church”.

Chapter 3 documents the typical intrigue and wars that took place at the end of the forth and beginning of the fifth century. The Huns, Vandals and Goths could each take a turn at overrunning the Roman Empire. Why did this become so easy?

This was an empire that had run for nine hundred years; three to four hundred years earlier Rome would have withstood an attack from any of these groups. In my opinion, Rome lost its moral discipline. They were not Christian but they had a code of honor. As life became softer, their values shifted to greed and lust: they paid the price. St. Jerome thought that perhaps it was the end of the world, others could not believe that Rome had been toppled. But they were taken down and evidently it wasn’t very difficult – they had lost their backbone. This is a lesson for every nation; and nation after nation have followed in the tracks of Rome.

There are several interesting lessons to be learned in this chapter. First, Chrysostom, as he leaves the monastery and assumes the duties of bishop of Constantinople he tells the people “do not give alms to any leader of the of the church who lives in plenty”.

While there may have been some clerics who welcomed this message I am sure there were many others who wanted John to shut-up. Constantinople was a wealthy city, an imperial city, most people of rank were doing very well. The new fellow, the new bishop was definitely not good for business. Dr. Carroll then points out that St. Chrysostom then went on to depose no less than six bishops for buying their office.

It is interesting to note that in his last years, while in exile, St. John Chrysostom wrote to the Pope in Rome asking for justice. Pope Innocent I responded with a letter to Theophilus stating that St. John’s deposition was null and void. The Pope sent three bishops to the east to arrange for a council to hear the matter of St. John’s deposition; according to Dr. Carroll all three were immediately jailed and one died from maltreatment. These observations made by Dr. Carroll will help to explain some of the feelings that lead to the splitting of east and west in another six hundred years.

We also see the introduction of some of the teachings of St. Augustine, according to Dr. Carroll, Augustine was to serve as Bishop of Hippo for thirty-four years, but his impacts on our religion would last into modern day. St. Augustine is appropriately noted for defending the Church against a number of heresies; Manicheanism, Donatism and Pelagianism. Augustine had to put forth lengthy defenses for divine and human nature of Christ as well as the need for grace when man exercises his free will. These were topics which had not been developed prior to Augustine’s time, at least not fully. Thanks to Dr. Carroll we have some back ground as to what was at stake in a theological sense, not merely that there were arguments.

Finally, I noticed that in 393 a synod of bishops in Africa had met and specified a complete list of the books of the Bible, pending the approval of Rome; such approval was granted in 405. This the first time I heard of this synod.

Susan Margaret wrote: "Chapter three highlights two important beliefs of the Catholic Faith. The first being that God’s grace is needed for salvation and the second that Mary is the Mother of God. Chapter four addresses ..."

Great observations. “Councils do not eliminate error; they define it, so that the faithful and obedient may know where the truth lies.” This is a short but great quote.

Also, “the gates of Hell did not prevail against the Church”. Every Catholic should find reassurance in this quote. No matter what was thrown at the Church, there were people who stepped forward to set things right.

Whenever I pickup a new history book looking for this statement regarding the Gates of Hell gives me an indication of how seriously to take the book.

Two important conversations in chapter 4 that don’t normally receive a great deal of attention; Pope St. Leo and his battle with the Monophysite believers. Also, St. Patrick and his return to Ireland.

The Monophysite controversy revolved around a group questioning if Jesus Christ possessed two natures; one human and one divine. Having two natures within one person was, as still is, a difficult concept to come to grips with. This was a concept still being debated in the fifth century after Christ. In reading this chapter it looked as if more time was spent in political maneuvering than in theological debate. In fact, with the involvement of emperors it is amazing that any theological progress was made. However, thanks to the brilliance and courage of Pope St. Leo a good deal of progress was made.

The approach of viewing Jesus as one person existing with two natures is something that has continued into modern day and we are all very blessed that it did last through the centuries. Think of the impact on salvation. The fact a divine person was willing to come into humanity and sacrifice Himself for our sake; what an impressive act of love He choose to demonstrate for us. St. Leo, and others fought and defended that concept for decades.

Having the Virgin Mary as a central character in the salvation of mankind, responsible for carrying His human body, protecting Him, raising Him and loving Him. This was not just a nice story or an intellectually challenging piece of doctrine; this was a pivotal part of our salvation history.

Finally, Dr. Carroll introduces St. Patrick, the evangelist that cemented Christianity into Ireland. He assisted an entire people develop into what used to be one of the strongest faith communities on earth. As a slave, he prayed every day while tending the sheep of his owners. When the opportunity presented itself he escaped to Scotland and then worked his way back home. Then we encounter the amazing part of his story; he went back! He came back to where he had been used as a slave in order to save the souls of those who had stolen him in his youth and worked him as a creature without any rights.

Our church has always been blessed with people who have gone wherever the Lord decided to send them.

Thank you for incisive commentaries all. This history is often challenging reading and a group interchange like this is not only helpful in getting to the core of what Carroll is saying but encourages to make a more diligent effort in dealing with the text.

I was paying attention closer to the growing split between Rome and Eastern Churches in Constantinople and Antioch.

Pope Felix III has much trouble on all frontiers, and in Rome. There is constant struggle in Constantinople with the ecclesiastics holding onto various shades of Monophysite, Nestorian, and Orthodox beliefs. The emperors are regularly intruding into religion, the patriarchs are increasingly under the control of the emperor, and the Roman popes are reminding them of their sphere of concern. Carroll writes that this will go on for five Centuries. I like the way Pope Felix III deals most directly with the emperor in Constantinople, as other popes already have done and future popes will do, and excommunicates the heretical hierarchy there.

As the Persian churches become Monophysite and Nestorian previous centuries’ Roman political dominance over their territories weighs in on these lands. The distaste for Rome goes back centuries at this point in history.

Power politics are at play between the eastern emperors, western men in power, and their attempts to control the Popes. There is also frequent class struggle between the wealthy minority and the poor populace.

Galicius wrote: "Good point, Leslie, that men should leave the mystery of God to Him, and not try to penetrate it which is probably the main cause of the heresy conflicts, and of course goes back to the Garden of E..."

I loved your comments Galicius. I find myself wanting to re-read Augustine's "City of God" now that we are reading this time line. It really is quite fitting. And, your heresy book has been on my list for awhile! :-) Thank you for your comments.

Galicius wrote: "Thank you for incisive commentaries all. This history is often challenging reading and a group interchange like this is not only helpful in getting to the core of what Carroll is saying but encoura..."

I agree. It is confusing keeping the various factions straight. I think while it is important to understand the motivations of each group, the bottom line is no one was really hearing Jesus and living the life Jesus encouraged. When I think of why the Roman Empire fell, it is for this reason. It is not that terribly different from the fates of Sodom, etc.