Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

Yes. Reading and writing.

Sometimes, depends on how it is handled. The early Casca The Eternal Mercenary books by Barry Sadler were fun. I think the 5th one published was Panzer Soldier & my favorite. I believe they went downhill quickly from there, although there were a couple of bright spots. The series was interesting as it followed him through various wars.

The Bolo series started by Keith Laumer & contributed to by others is a neat take on soldiering by machines.

Jerry Pournelle wrote some good war/soldier books.

The Dorsai! books by Gordon R. Dickson are great.

Abe wrote: "Are there any military science fiction fans?"

There's a sizable topic on Military Science Fiction recommendations here.

If you like Starship Troopers, you should follow it with The Forever War, Armor, & Old Man's War. There's a decade or two between each one & shows different take on the infantry man of the future. A lot of similarities in the basics, but completely different takes. Interesting.

Good recommendations.

I would note Jack Campbell's "Lost Fleet" series.

For fun, Mary Gentle's "Grunts"

Forsaken Skies by D. Nolan Clark is my latest favorite.

Besides his Lost Fleet books, John G. Hemry also did the Paul Sinclair series: A Just Determination, Burden of Proof, Rule of Evidence. (Campbell being a pen name.)

And I also recommend Terry Pratchett's Only You Can Save Mankind despite its being definitely borderline about being in the genre.

I'm a big fan of military science fiction that follows coming of age in the military, although some of my favorites also start in mid-career, like Elizabeth Moon's novel Hunting Party.

I usually don't find time to post here, but I'm cruising through Ninth City Burning, a recent novel by J. Patrick Black, which is more creative story-telling pure enjoyment than anything I've read in military science fiction in years.

So I wanted to share. :)

Jim wrote: "If you like Starship Troopers, you should follow it with The Forever War, Armor, & Old Man's War. There's a decade or two between each one & sho..."

I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however, what did you think of the Seafort Saga series, starting with Midshipman's Hope? I read them all and loved the first several.

Claudia wrote: "I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however, what did you think of the Seafort Saga series, starting with Midshipman's Hope?.."

I thought Old Man's War was the first published & in its series. No?

I haven't tried any in the Seafort Saga yet. If my library gets it in audio, I'll give it a try, although I've read the Horatio Hornblower series as well as most of Weber's Honor Harrington series. The latter is also a homage to Hornblower & set in space. Weber has written some very good military SF, although he does like his info dumps. She's his best character, though.

Jim wrote: "Claudia wrote: "I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however, what did you think of the ..."

Yes, I don't know the name of the Old Man's War series, just read that first one when it came out.

I've also read and enjoyed the non-sci-fi Horatio Hornblower series and most of the Honor Harrington series. I never thought of those two as related despite the intials of the protagonists. I did always recognize the Seafort Saga as almost dead on to Horatio.

Seafort is also more accessibly written than Honor, and with less cardboard characters than Honor. I've never understood why I like Honor, unless it is my inner reactionary engaging with Weber's. :)

Jim wrote: "Claudia wrote: "I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however, what did you think of the ..."

Yes, I don't know the name of the Old Man's War series, just read that first one when it came out.

I've also read and enjoyed the non-sci-fi Horatio Hornblower series and most of the Honor Harrington series. I never thought of those two as related despite the intials of the protagonists. I did always recognize the Seafort Saga as almost dead on to Horatio.

Seafort is also more accessibly written than Honor, and with less cardboard characters than Honor. I've never understood why I like Honor, unless it is my inner reactionary engaging with Weber's. :)

Weber actually said Honor Harrington was his homage to Horatio Hornblower, which is how I know that. There are similarities, but I don't know that I would have picked it up on my own. From the reviews I read, Seafort is much closer. Actually, one of my friends dinged it for being too close.

I don't know why I like the Honor Harrington series so much either. You're right that the characters are pretty 2 dimensional & his info dumps are awful. The first time through one is rough, but running into the same one in several books should have sent me screaming, especially in audio format, the media I used on a reread of most of them. The overriding story & her character carries the book, though.

Claudia wrote: "Jim wrote: "Claudia wrote: "I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however, what did you t..."

In the non-SF arena, I highly recommend Patrick O'Brien's Master & Commanders series. There is NO captain better than Capt. Jack Aubrey!

Kivrin wrote: "Claudia wrote: "Jim wrote: "Claudia wrote: "I can't agree more about Starship Troopers and Armor. (I never got into Old Man's War, dropping out after the first in the series). Of that type, however..."

Always did mean to read that series, thanks for reminding me of it.

But if we're talking about "real" Napoleonic war series, it's only fair we look at the other end of the literary spectrum as well: pure fantasy Napoleonic War series. Yes, I mean dragons: Naomi Novik's Temeraire Series.

It has been my observation that there's a lot more military SF than military fantasy. Perhaps the authors think it might be a bit hard to make the rules clear enough to keep the strategy and tactics working.

Mary wrote: "It has been my observation that there's a lot more military SF than military fantasy. Perhaps the authors think it might be a bit hard to make the rules clear enough to keep the strategy and tactic..."

I think you're right when it comes to advanced military tech/magic. A new novel that I think does a good job blending the two is Ninth City Burning.

Also, would you consider the Dan Abnett Inquisitor series military? Certainly it is the Church Militant. That "nonet" also blurs magic and tech.

On the other hand, when it comes to old military tech and magic, I think most military series are fantasy. The only hard ancient tech spec fic novels I've seen are by K.J. Parker. Both her "Fencer Trilogy" and "Engineer Trilogy" were as ancient-tech long-winded rigorous as any Honor Harrington novel (though K.J. Parker is much more psychologically complex than Weber).

Joe Abercrombie's even more ancient-world military sagas are also closer to tech than magic.

Just noticed: all those ancient-world military sagas are written by Brits.


On the other hand, when it come to North American writers, I've seen many more ancient-military magical series, like the Raymond Feist Riftwar books and Elizabeth Moon Paksennarion series. A few even get the equestrian details right.

I have never heard of this Seafort Saga. Never read Hornblower either but I rather enjoy Aubrey-Maturin series....

All the good ones are mentioned already from Heinlein to Scalzi. Haldeman's Forever War is okay but still worth to read since it is a classic. I'll just add Terms of Enlistment which I really enjoyed and All You Need Is Kill is pretty awesome too.

Speaking of Elizabeth Moon, is her Vatta series any good? It's in my to read list. Just need more boost to get it to my top list.

I am also on the fence about Lost Fleet.

Silvana wrote: "Speaking of Elizabeth Moon, is her Vatta series any good? .."

I liked them. Solid entertainment.

Claudia wrote: "...like the Raymond Feist Riftwar books and Elizabeth Moon Paksennarion series. A few even get the equestrian details right. "

The Empire series in Feist's Riftwar certainly has horses done well, since his coauthor Janny Wurts is a dedicated horse woman. She's always fussing with a couple in real life. Her fantasy book To Ride Hell’s Chasm stars horses & uses them to great advantage in describing the world.

I haven't read anything by Judith Tarr, but she's another horsewoman who writes fantasy. She's also written Writing Horses: The Fine Art of Getting It Right. She used to be into endurance riding, I think.

Silvana wrote: "Speaking of Elizabeth Moon, is her Vatta series any good?..."

Very good. Five book series, story complete. You could read the first and possibly even the second book and wonder why it's listed among military sci-fi, because Moon takes her time getting the conflict started. (The first book might remind you more of Lowell's Quarter Share, since it's exhaustively about interplanetary trading, currency conversions and profit margins.) Along with the growing conflict, Moon introduces a new, disruptive technology to spacefaring, requiring a dramatic shift in fleet tactics. Good, solid storytelling with some interesting characters.


Silvana wrote: "I am also on the fence about Lost Fleet...."

Interesting series for fleet combat, at least through the first five books (which really concludes the "lost fleet" part of the story.) Book six is part denouement & part cleanup of loose ends. The two continuation series (Beyond the Frontier & Lost Stars) are just milking the franchise, IMO.

Jim wrote: "I haven't read anything by Judith Tarr, but she's another horsewoman who writes fantasy. She's also written Writing Horses: The Fine Art of Getting It Right."

First line in the summary of that book - "How far can a horse travel in a day? "

That's my pet peeve when people don't get it right. No, you cannot cross an entire continent at a gallop. Horses need to eat, drink, rest, and do all the things that people do. And for those who think that riding horses is something a person can do for extended periods of time without getting tired either, clearly never rode a horse.

That was one thing the Eragon series got wrong (replace horse with dragon). In the first book it takes them days/weeks of effort to cross the land. By the last book he's zooming back and forth multiple times and still has the strength for the final battle.

It was one thing that the Thomas Covenant series got right. There was this chapter long scene where all the exhausted characters were just sitting by a stream resting for a few days even while the end of the world was nearly upon them.

But to be fair, it is boring to read about all the rest breaks during a particularly intense moment. Just as almost no one ever takes bathroom breaks while on a quest.

And horses never throw their shoes. This is because if it happens while nothing significant depends on speed, it's nothing but a random episode, and while something does, it's obviously the writer throwing in a monkey wrench.

Considering all the lameness problems we've had lately, I'd take a thrown shoe. Most fantasy books could do with a healthy dose of reality in their horses. A recent one had a horse getting a stone bruise & recovering in an afternoon. Jordan had an archer stash his bow stave under a girth. They treat horses as if they were cars.

I just remembered I also have Linda Nagata's The Red: First Light on my shelf. Anyone read her work before?

G33z3r wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Speaking of Elizabeth Moon, is her Vatta series any good?..."

Very good. Five book series, story complete. You could read the first and possibly even the second book and wonder why..."

thanks for the info. Hmm finance stuff is not really my thing, but I read the sample of the first book and quite liked it. I'll give it a try.

Silvana wrote: "I just remembered I also have Linda Nagata's The Red: First Light on my shelf. Anyone read her work before?..."

If you're looking for a list of military SF, you might try this topic: Favorite Military Science Fiction novels.

I've read Nagata's The Red trilogy, and it's a decent read. It's entirely earthbound (plus one quick orbital mission in, I think, book 2), in a future with combat powersuit exoskeletons & augmented reality brain implants of various styles, plus drones, of course.

There's also a short story that was in one of our group anthology discussions, Codename: Delphi, which was written between books 1 & 2 but takes place before the trilogy. "Delphi" is a secondary character in the main The Red trilogy. (That entire anthology, War Stories from the Future, is available free on-line from the publisher if you want to try the short story as a sample of Nagata's work.)

I haven't started the series yet but I've heard Nicholas Sansburry smith, The extinction cycle is good.

Marc wrote: "I haven't started the series yet but I've heard Nicholas Sansburry smith, The extinction cycle is good."

I just finished book one Extinction Horizon and really enjoyed it. I like his take on the apocalypse and look forward to continuing the series. It's not a deep read but it's a fun ride. I envision The Rock as the lead running through a summer action flick.

Mary wrote: "Forsaken Skies by D. Nolan Clark is my latest favorite."

And now he's come out with Forgotten Worlds

One I really like that's military Sci-fi but not is Weber's Safehold series. Honestly can't wait for more to happen in that universe. Also always liked Warhammer 40k for mindless violence. Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts are excellent.

Reading and writing it whenever I get the chance!
My all-time favorite remains the Area 51 series by Robert Doherty/Bob Mayer. He did a masterful job tying alternative historical events to an ongoing alien civil war. I've also had a good time going through Robert Buettner's Orphanage series.