Jane Austen discussion

Hi all - I've already done two Jane Austen based mysteries. One is The Meryton Murders: A Mystery Set in the Town of Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice, the other is The Highbury Murders: A Mystery Set in the Village of Jane Austen's Emma. I'm now working on one based on Mansfield Park.

I want to introduce the older brother of the Honourable John Yates, but I am not certain of naming conventions. The older brother is the heir apparent to their father who is some sort of lord. Would the older brother also be a lord, a sort of courtesy title? Or would the older brother also be an Honourable? And of course the answer needs to apply ca. 1815.

In my previous novels, this sort of question never came up!

Thanks to anyone who can answer or who can steer me in a helpful direction.

See this online " Primer" that addresses titles of nobility:


http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/tit...

Hi...
see this link...I imagine that the precedence ranking is fairly standard as they did not start playing around with it until the late 19th and early 20th Centuries when women began to appear on the lists of aristocracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...

As for your specific question...the honorific title of the eldest son tends to be the next level down...so the eldest son of a Duke is styled a Marquess...the eldest son of a Marquess is an Earl...the eldest son of an Earl is a Viscount.

Everything I have seen tends to name the younger children as Lord and Lady. Many younger sons of the higher orders may also inherit a more minor title as dukes often collected titles. Likewise the monarch can name a younger child to a defunct title.

As for the forms of address...all children of aristocracy are referred to as "My Lord" or "My Lady" and are referred to as "Lord XXXX" and "Lady XXXX".

See my characters Lord Thomas Cecil and Lady Emily Cecil, both younger children of the Marquess of Salisbury in my novella "Of Fortune's Reversal."
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

see also https://reginajeffers.wordpress.com/2...

You will note that the appellation "The Rt. Honorable" is applied only in written correspondence (on the envelope) to a member of the aristocracy--and it varies with the level.

As a rule, (at least in modern practice), the appellation of "Honorable" tends to be used in forms of address when introducing high level appointed or elected officials (USA).

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rig... for Great Britain.

So, if your character John Yates is a Privy Councilor, "Honourable" is fine. Otherwise he should be "Lord John."

Maybe others will weigh in.

I think whether the older brother has a courtesy title depends on how high up in the nobility his father is. Maybe the heir to a barony or something might not have a title; at the other end of the spectrum, the sons of dukes do. Not sure about marquesses (marquises) or earls!

Right. Never have seen courtesy title for sons of barons. Baronets likewise. Seems to hold only for sons of Dukes, marquesses and earls.

And of course, baronets aren’t actually aristocrats; that (dubious) honor starts at the baron level—or it did in the Regency, at least. Nowadays, it seems every industrialist and banker in England is made a baron after they hit 50, and they are just life-peers, not the kind who can pass on the title to descendants.

And they only made Maggie Thatcher a baroness! And a life peer, at that!

Sir Walter Elliott is a baronet who is renting out his ancestral home, but what if he was so in debt that he had to sell it, or lost it? Would he still be a baronet, do you think? Is the title attached to a specific place? His heir said, "if baronetcies were saleable, anybody should have his for fifty pounds, arms and motto, name and livery included," and he intended to bring Kellynch hall "under the hammer." Does anyone know the rules?

He would still be a baronet. Baronetcies cannot be sold, and they lapse only if the male line dies out, including cadet branches of the family such as William Elliot’s.

Thanks very much Abigail. So no matter what his condition in life, he is still a baronet.

If I understand these things correctly, I don't think he can sell Kellynch. It's entailed. William Elliot would have to break the entail to sell the property since he seems to be the last male heir.