Catholic Thought discussion

Welcome back everyone! This may be a bit short, but only because I'm still reading! We've had a couple of deaths in our workplace's family tree and we are short staffed, etc.

Although these chapters can seem a bit daunting in keeping up with the various names, dates, councils, changes in leadership and adversaries, the story really has been quite exciting! I loved learning about the history of Paris, Gaul and King Clovis. I was largely unfamiliar with the history of the barbarians. I really only knew the name of Attila the Hun and nothing more, so for me, this was very educational. I found myself thinking I wish I could audit a class on the history of the Roman Empire. It's so hard to keep up with the division of the Kingdom, sometimes in half, sometimes in thirds. There's always bacskstabbing, dirty politics, family squabbles (what an understatement!). And, interestingly enough, it seems like the Roman Empire considered itself quite advanced, yet we find over and over the surrounding areas seem to often be more reasonable, despite a more rudimentary existence.

I love learning about the lives of the quiet ones who moved along the sidelines of history making enormous changes while chaos reigned around them - people such as Nino in Georgia, Frumentius in Ethiopia, St. Genevieve, St. Brigid (Mary of the Gael), etc.

I have a friend whose greyhound was named Remi, so we both smiled when we learned Remi was the Catholic bishop in Rheims who baptized King Clovis on Christmas Day. And, I especially loved the appearance of King Arthur!!! I never knew the badge he wore was that of the Blessed Mother! :-) Suddenly, I found myself wanting to re-read my high school book on him.

We see an early perpetual adoration, one of my favorite Catholic ways to pray, with the monks called Akoimetae, The Sleepless Ones, amid the backdrop of Theodoric's political manueverings.

I need to break off here because of a time limitation, but I will return soon!!! :-) Happy reading.

Chapter 6: “Justinian, Theodora and the Popes” (527-565)

If the description “Dark Ages” can still be applied to the former Western Roman empire during the centuries we are now reading about it applies well to this chapter with Clovis, Theodoric, and king Arthur dead. Carroll calls year 538 a “dark year”. This whole chapter is dark except for a bright story about Ireland in the end.

Emperor Justinian and his empress wife Theodora with general Belisarius come on the scene in Constantinople and attempt to conquer the West from the Ostrogoth rule.

Carroll deals gingerly with the messy period involving issues of papal succession. This is a dark period in Church history and if it wasn’t for the founder of the Church, Christ protecting it, who knows what would become of the Church.

Vigilius, an anti-pope who is responsible for the death of one or two of his predecessors becomes pope and is “converted”. He stands up to Justinian and becomes his prisoner for seven years. The issue of contention between the pope and the Eastern emperor becomes confusing. Nevertheless he is imprisoned again by Justinian and lives on bread and water for three more years. Carroll calls Vigilius “trimmer to the end” (p. 178). This refers to Dante’s “Inferno” where “trimmers” are those who for reasons of expediency will change their positions or modify their beliefs. They are in the vestibule of Dante’s hell along with angels who neither rebelled nor were faithful. (Dante recognizes another pope closer to his time in it.)

Galicius wrote: "Chapter 6: “Justinian, Theodora and the Popes” (527-565)

If the description “Dark Ages” can still be applied to the former Western Roman empire during the centuries we are now reading about it app..."

This is a very good post, your observation that the founding of the Church by Christ seems to be the only thing that spares the Church from a very uncertain future is spot on. Throughout Church history Jesus appears as the saving force. His presence take events from dark, damaging events to miraculous recoveries.

Emphasizing that Christ is the founder of the Catholic Church is one of the things which separate a history book written from a Catholic point of view and a history book written from a protestant point of view.

In Matthew 16:18-19, the Lord states “….You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. These words or similar will be found in every Bible but I have not found them once in a Protestant history of the church to describe the formation of the church. These words are used again and again in Catholic accounts of the history of the church.

So I use this as a barometer of what viewpoint I am about to engage. Go to the index and look up Peter, see the context in which he is discussed. That should fairly well indicate the viewpoint that is contained in the book. Check out Dr. Carroll’s description of the formation of Christendom in his first volume, you will see why he is considered a Catholic author.

Thank you both, as always, for your thought provoking posts. Yes, it was a very dark period indeed!

I need to back up just a bit and express my sadness at the story of St. Cloud! If ever there was someone to pray to when there's been a murder in the family, I think St. Cloud would be it!

These are such interesting times and, yes, extremely depressing. I have read and been told a gizillion times about the story of the anti-Pope and honestly I still don't clearly get it. I do GET that there was a serious enough concern about the ethics and power plays that someone felt justified to begin naming their own successor. But, it's hard to see the years after years after years of arguing about the nature of Jesus, the legitimacy of aspects of him, questions about limitations of God, etc.

Certainly, we are getting into the backbone of the European history that I think largely comes through in our own time on Earth. King Arthur, the Vandals, the Ostrogoths, etc. It's so odd to read of the history of Arabia and the way in which persecution of Christians was responded to. I can't help but feel so frustrated to read of these persecutiions throughout time and then feel like....if Arabia defended us then, what happened?

There was an interesting tie in from last year's reading with the Shroud of Turin appearing in the wall suddenly. I had forgotten that story until I read those paragraphs.

There is so much interesting history here. I know I will need to go back and re-read this with a google time line, etc.

In chapter six (page 171) it is mentioned that Pope Silverius died of starvation while in exile on the Island of Palmaria. Footnote number forty (page 186) states that he was the first pope in two thousand years who had committed suicide. I am a little confused, since suicide is a mortal sin, I would think that Pope Silverius would not be considered a Saint and a Martyr if he had actually committed suicide. Perhaps the suicide comment in the footnotes is a bit of an exaggeration?

Galicius, thank you for the info on the "Trimmers". One of these days I plan to read Dante's "Inferno". I read parts of the "Inferno" in high school, but do not remember much of it. I think Pope Francis had suggested that this book be read during the year of Mercy.

(I am a little behind on my reading and plan to catch up soon with the rest of you.)

I also enjoyed the Trimmers comment. No worries Susan Margaret. I'm a little behind as well. We've had forest fires all over my state and the adjoining states, smoke everywhere, then this week the woman I'm staying with hit my car trying to look at the Christmas lights on the house!

Leslie

Oh my gosh Leslie! You have had a very, very rough few months. Vehicles and mother nature has not been very kind to you lately. I am hoping and praying for better days ahead for you.

It is absolutely unbelievable what a difficult year this has been. The week before she hit my car, I had taken it in for an oil change, then on the drive home the pipe leading into the turbo fell off! All when I'm driving so far for work. It's been rough. Thank you for your prayers. I hope you guys won't give up on me as a future moderator! I'll get better I promise!