Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
The Cafe - Open Discussion
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Resurrected Jesus walking into the temple
If I use some theatrical makeup to simulate pierced hands and feet, will I be saluted as the Son of God?
It depends on the audience because a Kingdom person will understand that it's a simulation and would begin to worship God,but other audiences would probably worship you in awe of what you've done.
Barton wrote: "Why is God the architect of the delicate balance between belief and unbelief...rather than an all-out demonstration that would remove doubt? ..."My response: Jesus Himself said that if one were raised from the dead... they would not believe...
Luke 16:31 - "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead ."
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The Words of Jesus to Thomas also come to mind...
John 20:29-30
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed .
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
I agree with the references. In short, Faith is always required.
Robert wrote: "Robert - very apt references!"Thanks Robert.
But the question is: "Why" is the delicate balance of belief and unbelief so important and so precisely maintained by God through centuries of the opportunity for the pendulum to move one way or the other?
Is there a commendable character element to giving God the benefit of the doubt...as Robert correctly noted in the exchange between Jesus and Thomas...that has caused God to reject the obvious demonstration...writing across the sky that Jesus is God and to worship Him...that would then be like 2 +2 = 4 or the existence of the noonday sun.
There is something fundamentally important about faith...I think we sometimes miss the obvious...that God could have elected for Jesus to walk down main street and into the temple on Tuesday after His resurrection...which would have changed faith to fact...like Thomas reaching in to feel the recent wounds on Jesus' resurrected new body.
What is it about faith and belief that is so important?
A good question for Christians to ponder.
Is there a commendable character element to giving God the benefit of the doubt...as Robert correctly noted in the exchange between Jesus and Thomas...that has caused God to reject the obvious demonstration...writing across the sky that Jesus is God and to worship Him...that would then be like 2 +2 = 4 or the existence of the noonday sun.
There is something fundamentally important about faith...I think we sometimes miss the obvious...that God could have elected for Jesus to walk down main street and into the temple on Tuesday after His resurrection...which would have changed faith to fact...like Thomas reaching in to feel the recent wounds on Jesus' resurrected new body.
What is it about faith and belief that is so important?
A good question for Christians to ponder.
Barton - we ALL (Christians) give God the benefit of the doubt because His existence cannot be proven. That, of course is precisely the way He wants it. I suppose some are presented with overwhelming miracles they cannot deny, but most of us arrive at Faith through trial and error. Everyday life provides the trials and our inability to address them in a manner acceptable to God illustrates the error. Then we convert and, though the trials continue, our response through prayer and Faith becomes more (marginally) Jesus-like. Instead of the death spiral we were in, we then enter an upward belief spiral. The way of the dedicated unbeliever is different. He learns to enjoy his dysfunction and quasi-evil deeds and regards them as adventure. As the culture presents more means to pursue Satanic pleasure, your delicate balance, Barton, may tilt precipitously toward the nonbelief swing of the pendulum.
Romans 1:19-2019 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them .
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead ; so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE:
Barton,I would say that Jesus did not walk into the temple to prove his resurrection because he was establishing the Church, not validating the need for the temple. Jesus’ resurrection was proven to the disciples, who then wrote about it as codified in the Bible. God’s redemptive program was not to go through the Jews anymore since they rejected him. The Church would do what the Jewish nation refused to do; that is become a light unto the Gentiles (Isaiah 49:6). Hence, it would begin through the disciples, not the Pharisees or other Jewish sects. Christ appeared to the disciples to validate to them that he did what he said he would do. Because he did, the Church became established and grew by leaps and bounds to this day.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but I don't know that I would say there is a delicate balance between belief and unbelief. Belief is an affirmative act. Either you believe or you don't. If you say you're not sure, that is unbelief. We have to accept that God requires us to take an affirmative position if we are to fellowship with Him. For example, in Revelation 3:14-16, God admonishes the church of Laodicea for being lukewarm. So, the principle is clear; He requires a position.
While God rewards those who believe in Him, He also reaches out to all those who do not believe for the purpose of restoring fellowship with Him through His Son, Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:6 says it succinctly... without faith, it is impossible to please God. This is a fundamental fact. Using human wisdom, why would God reward those who do not believe in Him?
Apart from the Bible, the existence of God is evidenced by His creation (as mentioned in Romans 1 by Robert). But we know that many reject this premise. Even so, God does not have to prove Himself to man again and again and again, although He has done so again and again and again as recorded in the Bible. He’s done His part. To those who believe and accept the Word as preached from the Bible, faith is a gifted (Ephesians 2:8) to affirm and strengthen our walk.
I hope this makes some sense.
God Bless.
Wonderful comments and points of view.
After thinking about them, I guess I will attempt to answer my own question.
When we exercise faith in someone else...a wife or husband, child, subordinate at work...and this brings out the best in them...inspires them to rise to the occasion...this is a commendable character trait that belongs at the top of the natural moral law (that C.S. Lewis wrote about).
So in setting up faith-journeys as part of our relationship with God as we take up our cross to follow Jesus (wherever that leads in our individual lives and callings) God is allowing us to exercise commendable faith in Him...which cannot actualize if our faith is placed in ourselves alone.
Is this a plausible reason why God has kept faith (in balance with the freedom to push Him away) in action all of these long centuries (from Genesis on until today)?
To Robert C---yes, I am afraid that is where we are heading.
To Robert D---I appreciate your scholarly research in finding on-point scriptures.
To Tyrone---excellent points well-spoken.
After thinking about them, I guess I will attempt to answer my own question.
When we exercise faith in someone else...a wife or husband, child, subordinate at work...and this brings out the best in them...inspires them to rise to the occasion...this is a commendable character trait that belongs at the top of the natural moral law (that C.S. Lewis wrote about).
So in setting up faith-journeys as part of our relationship with God as we take up our cross to follow Jesus (wherever that leads in our individual lives and callings) God is allowing us to exercise commendable faith in Him...which cannot actualize if our faith is placed in ourselves alone.
Is this a plausible reason why God has kept faith (in balance with the freedom to push Him away) in action all of these long centuries (from Genesis on until today)?
To Robert C---yes, I am afraid that is where we are heading.
To Robert D---I appreciate your scholarly research in finding on-point scriptures.
To Tyrone---excellent points well-spoken.
Good discussion so far...maybe reaching the end of this thread...but one huge theological question remains for me in this delicate balance concept...which I would greatly appreciate your insights:
Acts 10:40-43..."Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins."
Question: What is it...fundamentally...about unbelief that disqualifies a person from salvation and eternal life?
Thanks, Bart
Acts 10:40-43..."Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive remission of sins."
Question: What is it...fundamentally...about unbelief that disqualifies a person from salvation and eternal life?
Thanks, Bart
Barton wrote: "Question: What is it...fundamentally...about unbelief that disqualifies a person from salvation and eternal life?..."My response: Unbelief is a rejection of Jesus Christ as the only Way of salvation.
I'm not trying to be funny here, but why would someone seek salvation and eternal life from someone they don't believe in?
Tyrone - ask the Muslims; who needs to believe in anything when you have 77 virgins waiting for you?
Robert - don't need to. They will be sorely disappointed when they stand before the Lord. People can believe what they want for whatever reason. Biblically speaking, belief in the Lord God of the Bible is necessary for salvation and eternal life in Him.
I would like you all to dig a little deeper...of course the definition Robert D. gives is scripture and therefore perfect...this is the theological group...what is it about unbelief...as apposed to some other criteria...that determines salvation.
This goes back to the purposeful setting up by God Himself of the balance between exercising faith from free-will and at the same time being free to choose unbelief...in other words God not making it an obvious fact like the noonday sun...or writing across the sky for everyone to see: "Jesus is Lord...worship Him."
I see this delicate balance as a spiritual engineering feat requiring immense skill...like the fine-tuning of the constants in the universe like the force of gravity or the cosmological constant. It does not seem that easy to get the balance just right when it comes to belief and unbelief.
Multitudes upon multitudes will stand before God at the judgment day and be condemned because they did not believe in Jesus as their Savior...like the serpent lifted up in the Exodus wilderness.
So what is so special about this thing called faith...belief?
I understand the concept and am living it. I think it would be helpful if we could take the essence of belief...faith...a little deeper.
Thanks...appreciate your insights.
This goes back to the purposeful setting up by God Himself of the balance between exercising faith from free-will and at the same time being free to choose unbelief...in other words God not making it an obvious fact like the noonday sun...or writing across the sky for everyone to see: "Jesus is Lord...worship Him."
I see this delicate balance as a spiritual engineering feat requiring immense skill...like the fine-tuning of the constants in the universe like the force of gravity or the cosmological constant. It does not seem that easy to get the balance just right when it comes to belief and unbelief.
Multitudes upon multitudes will stand before God at the judgment day and be condemned because they did not believe in Jesus as their Savior...like the serpent lifted up in the Exodus wilderness.
So what is so special about this thing called faith...belief?
I understand the concept and am living it. I think it would be helpful if we could take the essence of belief...faith...a little deeper.
Thanks...appreciate your insights.
Barton - yet, liberal Christian churches give their membership hope they can sneak in the side door to salvation strictly through compassion and loving one another. Unbelievers think they can achieve some commendable afterlife through environmental activism (hugging trees, saving whales, rescuing pets, etc.). I believe God in his foresight knew man would dance around obedience to his dictates and submission to his son in any conceivable manner so he set the criteria for salvation precisely as stated in the Bible to thwart any and all of these end runs.
In participating in these threads I can see how important and difficult it is to be clear in my wording...something for me to continue to work on.
In my post above I am not questioning the value of faith...I am asking for help to break it down. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum from liberal Christianity. Salvation comes through the cross and the shed blood of Christ.
So I will start off with my opinion...maybe faith cannot be broken down more than this:
When God sets up a relationship with us where we exercise faith in Him...because He is perfect and has the best intentions for us...this allows us to put into life-practice a very commendable character trait in a Person who is a sure thing...that cannot disappoint or fail...because He is God.
We try to do this in our relationships with other people...wives, husbands, children, family, and friends. When we can exercise faith in other people that inspires them to rise to the occasion...that brings the best out in them...this is a very commendable character trait.
We cannot inspire God to bring out His best...He is already perfect. But exercising faith in God allows us to put into practice this commendable trait. Maybe this is a key part of loving God and our neighbor as ourselves...the faith relationship with God spills over into exercising commendable faith in other people that brings out their best.
In Gen. 3:4-5...Satan is basically saying that Adam and Eve cannot trust the word of God...that God has hidden, selfish, ulterior motives for the commandment not to eat the forbidden fruit. God was slandered and mischaracterized in the most damaging and deceptive way.
A faith relationship through Christ for Christians allows God to prove through life experiences (a faith journey) that He is trustworthy, capable, and has our best interests at heart as King and Ruler of the realm.
Think about the many times in the Bible God withholds something from someone for some period of time...just so God can set up the circumstances whereby He can create a context for people to exercise faith...Abraham waiting for Isaac...Hannah childless...the blind man in John 9:3 comes to mind...incomprehensible according to worldly conventional normalcy, aspirations, and thinking.
God takes great liberties with the life-plan of Joseph...giving him a heads-up with the two early dreams but channeling events to get Joseph to the point of being prepared to be governor of Egypt.
David has a 13-year period of life-and-death faith trials to become properly prepared to be king and to write his psalms.
So it would seem that faith trumps worldly conventional normalcy...that if we are willing to go along with His higher ways...we might have to forego worldly conventional plans to a greater or lesser extent if we want to get the most out of our faith journey and discover God's ways more fully.
God goes to great lengths to establish the context for faith to be experienced.
Isn't this what lifelong foreign missionaries experience?
I would say that the life of Paul as described in Acts is very far removed from the conventional normalcy he would have enjoyed in Jerusalem as a highly educated Pharisee...if Jesus did not intervene in his life starting at Damascus.
So I am not questioning the value of faith...in the delicate balance between belief and unbelief...I am trying to break faith down to see what is its basic commendable feature.
I think that is as far as I can take it at this point.
I think this is extremely important. This is part of the sharp edge of the sword of truth that will cut through the bondage of unbelief of unsaved people listening to the gospel message being preached from the pulpit or in our testimony witness to people.
So what intrinsically is commendable about belief and damnable about unbelief?
In my post above I am not questioning the value of faith...I am asking for help to break it down. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum from liberal Christianity. Salvation comes through the cross and the shed blood of Christ.
So I will start off with my opinion...maybe faith cannot be broken down more than this:
When God sets up a relationship with us where we exercise faith in Him...because He is perfect and has the best intentions for us...this allows us to put into life-practice a very commendable character trait in a Person who is a sure thing...that cannot disappoint or fail...because He is God.
We try to do this in our relationships with other people...wives, husbands, children, family, and friends. When we can exercise faith in other people that inspires them to rise to the occasion...that brings the best out in them...this is a very commendable character trait.
We cannot inspire God to bring out His best...He is already perfect. But exercising faith in God allows us to put into practice this commendable trait. Maybe this is a key part of loving God and our neighbor as ourselves...the faith relationship with God spills over into exercising commendable faith in other people that brings out their best.
In Gen. 3:4-5...Satan is basically saying that Adam and Eve cannot trust the word of God...that God has hidden, selfish, ulterior motives for the commandment not to eat the forbidden fruit. God was slandered and mischaracterized in the most damaging and deceptive way.
A faith relationship through Christ for Christians allows God to prove through life experiences (a faith journey) that He is trustworthy, capable, and has our best interests at heart as King and Ruler of the realm.
Think about the many times in the Bible God withholds something from someone for some period of time...just so God can set up the circumstances whereby He can create a context for people to exercise faith...Abraham waiting for Isaac...Hannah childless...the blind man in John 9:3 comes to mind...incomprehensible according to worldly conventional normalcy, aspirations, and thinking.
God takes great liberties with the life-plan of Joseph...giving him a heads-up with the two early dreams but channeling events to get Joseph to the point of being prepared to be governor of Egypt.
David has a 13-year period of life-and-death faith trials to become properly prepared to be king and to write his psalms.
So it would seem that faith trumps worldly conventional normalcy...that if we are willing to go along with His higher ways...we might have to forego worldly conventional plans to a greater or lesser extent if we want to get the most out of our faith journey and discover God's ways more fully.
God goes to great lengths to establish the context for faith to be experienced.
Isn't this what lifelong foreign missionaries experience?
I would say that the life of Paul as described in Acts is very far removed from the conventional normalcy he would have enjoyed in Jerusalem as a highly educated Pharisee...if Jesus did not intervene in his life starting at Damascus.
So I am not questioning the value of faith...in the delicate balance between belief and unbelief...I am trying to break faith down to see what is its basic commendable feature.
I think that is as far as I can take it at this point.
I think this is extremely important. This is part of the sharp edge of the sword of truth that will cut through the bondage of unbelief of unsaved people listening to the gospel message being preached from the pulpit or in our testimony witness to people.
So what intrinsically is commendable about belief and damnable about unbelief?
FAITH* Is given by God to all people...
Romans 12:3 - "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith ."
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* Is the required response to the Gospel...
Hebrews 4:2 - "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it ."
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* Is the tangible reality and proof...
Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
To Robert D...I think in Rom. 12:3 Paul is speaking "to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly..." and not to mankind in general or to our universal capacity to exercise faith in God.
2 Thes. 3:2..."for all men have not faith." again I do not think this refers to the innate capacity for faith...but whether or not it is being exercised toward God.
Heb. 4:2 might be seen as a confirmation of the delicate balance of belief and unbelief in operation..."not being mixed with faith" meaning they had the free option to choose unbelief.
Heb 11:1...Jesus not showing Himself openly to all the world by walking into the temple after His resurrection I think establishes the reality of this verse..."Now faith is..."
Faith is not acknowledging the existence of the noonday sun.
Thanks Robert...you have clarified some things for me.
But I think we can go deeper.
What is the fundamental feature of faith in God that makes it eternally commendable at the peak of the natural moral law that governs all right behavior?
2 Thes. 3:2..."for all men have not faith." again I do not think this refers to the innate capacity for faith...but whether or not it is being exercised toward God.
Heb. 4:2 might be seen as a confirmation of the delicate balance of belief and unbelief in operation..."not being mixed with faith" meaning they had the free option to choose unbelief.
Heb 11:1...Jesus not showing Himself openly to all the world by walking into the temple after His resurrection I think establishes the reality of this verse..."Now faith is..."
Faith is not acknowledging the existence of the noonday sun.
Thanks Robert...you have clarified some things for me.
But I think we can go deeper.
What is the fundamental feature of faith in God that makes it eternally commendable at the peak of the natural moral law that governs all right behavior?
Barton wrote: "To Robert D...I think in Rom. 12:3 Paul is speaking "to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly..." and not to mankind in general or to our universal capacity to exercise f..."My response: So, you think it is OK for them to think more highly of those that God has NOT given faith to?
Thanks to Robert D, Robert C, and Tyrone for commenting in this thread. The interaction is a huge help to me...the back and forth fine-tunes my thinking...hope it is of value to you.
I think I have reached near bottom in breaking down the value of faith, and this leads to an interesting conclusion that should come as no surprise...we cannot go deeper than biblical scripture.
Gen. 3:4-5 violates a fundamental reality of the natural moral law coming from both sides. First, God is slandered and mischaracterized by Satan in the most subtly deceptive way...through the character assassination of unsupported, untrue innuendo. Second, Adam and Eve violated the natural moral law by not exercising commendably patient faith, confidence, and reliance upon God and the truthfulness of His word...in essence questioning God's character and moral integrity.
Paul writes in Phil. 3:10 "That I may KNOW HIM, and the power of his resurrection..."
Salvation through Christ, and a subsequent Holy Spirit led faith journey through life...solves our half of the Gen. 3:4-5 problem for all eternity...because it places our faith, confidence, and reliance in a person...God...who merits and can sustain the quality of this trust relationship for all eternity.
This helps explain for me Jn. 8:36 "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
A faith journey that establishes a relationship with God protects us from the temptation of autonomous rebellion in the eternal kingdom of God (Isa. 53:6)...possessing for ever after the free-will capacity and seasoned good judgment to follow the leadership of God rather than going our own way.
Absolute knowledge produced by Jesus walking into the temple after His resurrection...for example...does not support a faith journey...because we could then still remain in self-sovereignty.
I knew parts of this before...but it is starting to come together for me.
Thanks again. Bart
I think I have reached near bottom in breaking down the value of faith, and this leads to an interesting conclusion that should come as no surprise...we cannot go deeper than biblical scripture.
Gen. 3:4-5 violates a fundamental reality of the natural moral law coming from both sides. First, God is slandered and mischaracterized by Satan in the most subtly deceptive way...through the character assassination of unsupported, untrue innuendo. Second, Adam and Eve violated the natural moral law by not exercising commendably patient faith, confidence, and reliance upon God and the truthfulness of His word...in essence questioning God's character and moral integrity.
Paul writes in Phil. 3:10 "That I may KNOW HIM, and the power of his resurrection..."
Salvation through Christ, and a subsequent Holy Spirit led faith journey through life...solves our half of the Gen. 3:4-5 problem for all eternity...because it places our faith, confidence, and reliance in a person...God...who merits and can sustain the quality of this trust relationship for all eternity.
This helps explain for me Jn. 8:36 "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
A faith journey that establishes a relationship with God protects us from the temptation of autonomous rebellion in the eternal kingdom of God (Isa. 53:6)...possessing for ever after the free-will capacity and seasoned good judgment to follow the leadership of God rather than going our own way.
Absolute knowledge produced by Jesus walking into the temple after His resurrection...for example...does not support a faith journey...because we could then still remain in self-sovereignty.
I knew parts of this before...but it is starting to come together for me.
Thanks again. Bart
Great question - i approached this myself from more of a street angle: is God doing absolutely everything He can to save people? The answer ----- NO! Related: does God then Love Everyone? Or does He push many away?
Rod wrote: "Related: does God then Love Everyone? Or does He push many away?"John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
Hebrews 11:1 adds some new light to what I wrote above: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
There is a gap...a space...a vertical displacement on the graph-line continuum of goodness and light...between where we are when we start out as Christians on our adventure of faith...to where we need to get to...to fulfill our God-intended destiny.
This is a gap in time...or a gap between a promise of God and its fulfillment...or a gap in our character growth from where we are to where God will take us...that divinely creates the environment for real, biblically defined faith to operate.
For example...Abraham waits for the birth of Isaac the son of promise...totally and completely outside of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking...and totally within the realm of the elevated ways and thinking of God (Isa. 55:8-9)...to craft a "father of faith."
God writing across the sky in flaming letters for all to see...to worship Jesus and Him alone...or Jesus walking into the temple in Jerusalem the Monday morning after His resurrection...places the recognition of Jesus as Savior into the region of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking...along with all other things factually known such as who won the Super Bowl last year.
But having a gap...a space...where belief and unbelief can both proceed forward during the "new covenant" period (Jer. 13:31-34) is ingenious beyond all measure and far outside of humanistic invention or contrivance.
We walk by faith...not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7) is what enables John 16:13, John 8:36, John 11:25, and John 14:6 to actualize as genuine experience in our lives.
There is a gap...a space...a vertical displacement on the graph-line continuum of goodness and light...between where we are when we start out as Christians on our adventure of faith...to where we need to get to...to fulfill our God-intended destiny.
This is a gap in time...or a gap between a promise of God and its fulfillment...or a gap in our character growth from where we are to where God will take us...that divinely creates the environment for real, biblically defined faith to operate.
For example...Abraham waits for the birth of Isaac the son of promise...totally and completely outside of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking...and totally within the realm of the elevated ways and thinking of God (Isa. 55:8-9)...to craft a "father of faith."
God writing across the sky in flaming letters for all to see...to worship Jesus and Him alone...or Jesus walking into the temple in Jerusalem the Monday morning after His resurrection...places the recognition of Jesus as Savior into the region of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking...along with all other things factually known such as who won the Super Bowl last year.
But having a gap...a space...where belief and unbelief can both proceed forward during the "new covenant" period (Jer. 13:31-34) is ingenious beyond all measure and far outside of humanistic invention or contrivance.
We walk by faith...not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7) is what enables John 16:13, John 8:36, John 11:25, and John 14:6 to actualize as genuine experience in our lives.
Barton - as you have pointed out, we are primarily preaching to the choir here and discussing matters only those who have walked in Faith for awhile should address. Because new converts arrive in some form of acute distress, their first concern is the relief of anguish. This is assured to some extent, but not necessarily in the time frame nor precise manner desired. Regardless, their battle is already won, as Belief ensures eternal life, the hallmark of Christianity. Eventually all see life as a never-ending struggle no matter which parapet we occupy. I am old now and yearn for a resolution to the same old, tired mortal egomania - I hope heaven is a complete departure of all things terrestrial and wish that those I reacquaint with there, though loved, have thoroughly jettisoned their human wiles!
Yes, God loves everybody, but not to the same degree. You should use a little common sense here. Those people who worship and serve the Lord regularly; He loves more. That's only natural. The same applies to yourself. Do you love your husband the same as you love your enemies ? Of course not; why is God different; everything here is a reflection of His energy.
I'm not convinced God loves the children of Satan. The Cains and Jezebel of the world... or The many people God easily erased in the New and Old Testament.
Rod wrote: "I'm not convinced God loves the children of Satan. The Cains and Jezebel of the world... or The many people God easily erased in the New and Old Testament."John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance ."
God's Holiness is NOT trumped by His love... nor is His love trumped by His Holiness.
Rod wrote: "I'm not convinced God loves the children of Satan. The Cains and Jezebel of the world... or The many people God easily erased in the New and Old Testament."As one who has felt very "unloved" at times in my life, I would like to say that God sometimes doesn't show love.
Then again, I've tried to help drug addicts and prostitutes without much success because I couldn't just bonk them over the head and take away all their free will. They wanted me to "love" them, but if they don't change the negative behavior, inevitably the cops are going to show up. Then, is it that "God doesn't love them" or is it that "God has no other choice"?
When I go through those seasons where I don't feel loved, and where I ask "what did I do?", it does help to hope that maybe God does still love me, but this is just one of those dark valleys God wants me to walk through in order to get to the sunlit ridge on the other side.
And then, sometimes, I just want to shake my fist at that jerk and say, as it was so aptly said in that old song, "You don't send me flowers anymore." :)
Suppose Jesus had walked into the temple after his resurrection. Would people really have believed? I'm sure many would have said, "Oh, it's just some guy who looks like Jesus claiming that he came back from the dead." And I'm sure others would reply, "No, that's not Jesus. Jesus was taller than that."Like, every now and then an atheist will say something like, "If there really is a God, why doesn't he strike me with lightning right now for my blasphemy." (Madelyn Murray O'Hare said that, but I'm not sure if she was the first.) Suppose that at just that moment, a bolt of lightning tore through the roof and struck the atheist down. Do you suppose that all the atheists in the world would then say, "Zounds, we were wrong, there really is a God!" No way. They would laugh at the bizarre coincidence that this man was struck by lightning just as he said that. They'd quickly be denying that it ever happened and say it was all just a story that Christians made up. Even if there was a video of it posted on You-Tube, atheists would present "proof" that the video was faked.
Here's a real example. Jesus said that even if someone came back from the dead, people still would not believe. Well, today there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people by now, who have had "near death experiences". They say that they have come back from the dead. Has this ended atheism? No. People say that they are just making these stories up, that they are hallucinations, etc. I'm a Christian and I'm not quite sure what to make of such stories.
Very often, people believe what they want to believe, regardless of the evidence. God has given overwhelming evidence of his existence. Christians (and other theists) have written many books recounting all the evidence, from the argument from first cause to fulfilled prophecy to etc etc. People who don't want to believe still reject it.
28 February 2017 / 2 Adar 5777Hello,
I would like to share a passage of the Holy Scriptures that I hope you all will prayerfully ponder. It is an intriguing, but somewhat mysterious definition of the "faith" that God requires of those who believe in Him and His dear Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ecclesiastes 3:14 "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before Him.
Ecclesiastes 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."
Another relevant passage to consider from the end of that same book:
Ecclesiastes 12:9 "And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
Ecclesiastes 12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one Shepherd.
Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
May God truly be with you all in your study of His holy word!
With the love of Christ,
C.
Some verses about faith:Acts 1:3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
John 20:30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Exodus 14:31 Thus Israel saw the great work which the Lord had done in Egypt; so the people feared the Lord, and believed the Lord and His servant Moses.
Matthew 16:8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up?
If you didn't catch the common theme to the above verses, it's this: God asks people to have faith based on the evidence, the proof. He doesn't ask people to exercise blind faith. If you're going to believe without evidence, why believe the Bible? Why not the Quran, or the Communist Manifesto, or the blog posts of some random guy on the Internet? I believe the Bible because of many streams of evidence that all uphold it.
To C. Read and Mark Johansen...excellent scriptures and good comments.
I started this thread a little over 4 months ago with the aim to see if others people's comments would spark for me a better and deeper grasp of what faith is.
The back and forth was and is very good...and kept this question fresh in my mind.
About a month ago I had an "epiphany" reading Hebrews when I got to Hebrews 11:1..."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I once had this verse memorized...and it was even on a plaque mounted on the wall of my apartment...yet in hindsight I did not really understand it.
This biblical definition of faith describes a gap...things hoped for...things not seen.
If we apply this to Abraham waiting for Isaac, Joseph being prepared to become governor, Moses during the gap between the burning bush and the close of the exodus, David going through what he needed to experience to become king, Peter and his difficulties in being crafted to become the leader of the church in Jerusalem, and Paul's extremely unconventional route to becoming the great missionary evangelist...this gap in time or promise or process now hits me squarely in the face.
I can now see this is every biblical character of faith...Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Esther, Ruth, Hannah...and on and on.
There is even a gap in the life-script God wrote for Himself through Jesus the Son of God...as expressed in Luke 12:50 and then famously in Luke 23:34 from the cross.
So what is the point? These gaps are God created...God composed...to create the context for faith to actualize and to produce a personal relationship of trust.
This will not be found anywhere else in all of human experience...not books, movies, theater plays, philosophies, or other religions. Because these God-composed life-scripts that produce gaps contain the cross of Christ (Lk. 22:42) in God displacing our way with His higher ways...these gaps and the cross...validate the divine origin of the Bible in a wonderful and compelling way.
So I agree with Mark that God gives tangible proofs, but that He also sets up adventures of faith having this Hebrews 11:1 gap...that is way above and outside of the humdrum of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking.
I think this concept has huge implications. If God creates gaps wherein faith can operate from point A to point B...what then does this say about a pretrib rapture for example...which basically contains zero time duration during the actual event?
Will the Christian church likewise have a point A to point B gap of experience during some or most of the tribulation prior to the rapture...with a God-composed context for faith to actualize universally for every Christian on the planet?
Something to consider.
Welcome your thoughts...if you would...read message 29 above...has a few more points.
I started this thread a little over 4 months ago with the aim to see if others people's comments would spark for me a better and deeper grasp of what faith is.
The back and forth was and is very good...and kept this question fresh in my mind.
About a month ago I had an "epiphany" reading Hebrews when I got to Hebrews 11:1..."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I once had this verse memorized...and it was even on a plaque mounted on the wall of my apartment...yet in hindsight I did not really understand it.
This biblical definition of faith describes a gap...things hoped for...things not seen.
If we apply this to Abraham waiting for Isaac, Joseph being prepared to become governor, Moses during the gap between the burning bush and the close of the exodus, David going through what he needed to experience to become king, Peter and his difficulties in being crafted to become the leader of the church in Jerusalem, and Paul's extremely unconventional route to becoming the great missionary evangelist...this gap in time or promise or process now hits me squarely in the face.
I can now see this is every biblical character of faith...Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Esther, Ruth, Hannah...and on and on.
There is even a gap in the life-script God wrote for Himself through Jesus the Son of God...as expressed in Luke 12:50 and then famously in Luke 23:34 from the cross.
So what is the point? These gaps are God created...God composed...to create the context for faith to actualize and to produce a personal relationship of trust.
This will not be found anywhere else in all of human experience...not books, movies, theater plays, philosophies, or other religions. Because these God-composed life-scripts that produce gaps contain the cross of Christ (Lk. 22:42) in God displacing our way with His higher ways...these gaps and the cross...validate the divine origin of the Bible in a wonderful and compelling way.
So I agree with Mark that God gives tangible proofs, but that He also sets up adventures of faith having this Hebrews 11:1 gap...that is way above and outside of the humdrum of worldly conventional normalcy and thinking.
I think this concept has huge implications. If God creates gaps wherein faith can operate from point A to point B...what then does this say about a pretrib rapture for example...which basically contains zero time duration during the actual event?
Will the Christian church likewise have a point A to point B gap of experience during some or most of the tribulation prior to the rapture...with a God-composed context for faith to actualize universally for every Christian on the planet?
Something to consider.
Welcome your thoughts...if you would...read message 29 above...has a few more points.
Message 27 above by Rod raises a very good, related question...is God trying hard enough...which would make another excellent thread for discussion.
I think this goes back to the question of the reality of the delicate balance of belief and unbelief...why it exists, how it exists, how it continues, what is it's purpose...to why Jesus did not walk back into the temple the day after His resurrection.
As a person walking into a house church at 18 years old...completely and totally worldly...having no prior knowledge about Christianity...having zero friends or friend's parents who went to church...I painfully know about walking into a family that was hostile to my conversion to Christianity and the huge transformation that took place in my life...and the difficulty of coming up against stubborn and entrenched unbelief.
Yet over a 46-year period of being a Christian...dozens of family members...brothers, sister, nephews and nieces, and long-time friends have come to know Jesus as their Savior...including both my father and mother (divorced when I was 8) before they passed away...all within their appointed times.
Is God doing enough?
Again...welcome your thoughts. Barton
I think this goes back to the question of the reality of the delicate balance of belief and unbelief...why it exists, how it exists, how it continues, what is it's purpose...to why Jesus did not walk back into the temple the day after His resurrection.
As a person walking into a house church at 18 years old...completely and totally worldly...having no prior knowledge about Christianity...having zero friends or friend's parents who went to church...I painfully know about walking into a family that was hostile to my conversion to Christianity and the huge transformation that took place in my life...and the difficulty of coming up against stubborn and entrenched unbelief.
Yet over a 46-year period of being a Christian...dozens of family members...brothers, sister, nephews and nieces, and long-time friends have come to know Jesus as their Savior...including both my father and mother (divorced when I was 8) before they passed away...all within their appointed times.
Is God doing enough?
Again...welcome your thoughts. Barton
Barton wrote: "Is God doing enough?..."My response: God GAVE us His Son, Jesus!
God GAVE us the Holy Spirit!
God GAVE us His Holy Word, the Bible!
God GAVE us everything that pertains to life and godliness!
2 Peter 1:3 - "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
Perhaps a better question might be...
"Are we DOING ENOUGH ?
I agree, I think we focus too much on God and we stop handling our portion of the word load. Walking with Jesus isn't all his doing it's split into him releasing and you working what he releases. Thank you Robert you said it well.
Izaiah wrote: "I agree, I think we focus too much on God and we stop handling our portion of the word load. Walking with Jesus isn't all his doing it's split into him releasing and you working what he releases. T..."Thanks for the encouragement Izaiah. Some will disagree with you and say that Jesus does it all (and there is truth in that); however, there is a lot of DYING TO SELF needed that makes room for Jesus to work in and through us.
That is very true, and I agree,however, people like that misunderstand the power he gave us to accomplish in ourselves. That's why Paul said 'I can do all things through Christ. ' We love the 'in Christ 'part but often times we forget the "I"in that phrase.
2 Peter 1:5 - "And beside this, giving all DILIGENCE, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;"2 Peter 1:10 - "Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY seek him ."
Izaiah wrote: "Well said"It is ALL about Jesus... He gives it to us... He does it through us... but if we are NOT diligent... nothing happens.
I have heard it said...
Without God... we CAN'T
...Without us... He WON'T!
God never forces us to do anything!
That's something the body of Christ misses.
To Izaiah and Robert D...what are you thoughts on message 38?
Does Hebrews 11:1 identify a gap that helps us to understand faith in an adventure of faith patterned after examples we see in the Bible in the lives of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Ruth, Hannah, Esther, Jeremiah, Daniel...Peter, Paul...and many more...including Jesus...the gap...space...interval of time and effort between Luke 12:50 and Luke 23:34?
Does Hebrews 11:1 identify a gap that helps us to understand faith in an adventure of faith patterned after examples we see in the Bible in the lives of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Ruth, Hannah, Esther, Jeremiah, Daniel...Peter, Paul...and many more...including Jesus...the gap...space...interval of time and effort between Luke 12:50 and Luke 23:34?
Barton wrote: "To Izaiah and Robert D...what are you thoughts on message 38? Does Hebrews 11:1 identify a gap that helps us to understand faith in an adventure of faith patterned after examples we see in the Bi..."
Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
I am not sure that this verse identifies a gap (unless I mis-understand you). If I have the "substance" and the "evidence"... I am not sure I am seeing this as a "gap".
Faith is very real.
Rather than focus on the "hoped for" and "not seen"... I think the focus is on the "substance" and "evidence".
The unseen hope is a reality... but faith is an even greater and more powerful reality.
Good points Robert. This is a very important verse, as it is one of the biblical definitions of faith.
I think like most of the verses in the Bible...there are multiple truths revealed.
The "part" of this Heb. 11:1 verse that hit me between the eyes is its correspondence to the gap in "process" of Abraham waiting for the promise of Isaac to actualize...and within this dynamic a relationship with God is formed and strengthened.
The same can be seen in the lives of Joseph, Moses, David, and throughout every narrative story of faith in the Bible.
The fact that this "gap" is the result of a God-composed life-script way above human imagination or contrivance...should tell us something extremely important...one being that "biblical faith" is divinely created, crafted, and channeled within the context of the life-script God composes.
To my mind this is a huge apologetic reality that confirms along with many other proofs that the Bible has a divine origin above any humanistic explanation or causation.
So to address your accurate comment...the faith is real and tangible in this verse...the gap is the space within the process from point A to what is not yet...seen and hoped for...at point B.
I think like most of the verses in the Bible...there are multiple truths revealed.
The "part" of this Heb. 11:1 verse that hit me between the eyes is its correspondence to the gap in "process" of Abraham waiting for the promise of Isaac to actualize...and within this dynamic a relationship with God is formed and strengthened.
The same can be seen in the lives of Joseph, Moses, David, and throughout every narrative story of faith in the Bible.
The fact that this "gap" is the result of a God-composed life-script way above human imagination or contrivance...should tell us something extremely important...one being that "biblical faith" is divinely created, crafted, and channeled within the context of the life-script God composes.
To my mind this is a huge apologetic reality that confirms along with many other proofs that the Bible has a divine origin above any humanistic explanation or causation.
So to address your accurate comment...the faith is real and tangible in this verse...the gap is the space within the process from point A to what is not yet...seen and hoped for...at point B.
This would have proved beyond doubt that Jesus was indeed the Son of God.
Why is God the architect of the delicate balance between belief and unbelief...rather than an all-out demonstration that would remove doubt?