Stoicism discussion

Use this forum to discuss Seneca's On the Shortness of Life.

This is wonderful, Massimo, thanks. I'm not sure how to proceed so I'll just say this: Chapter XIV, where he mentions the joys of reading so many different philosophers struck a cord with me. It displays a spirit we could use in politics today. Also, this short book shows how poetic Seneca is. I enjoyed it last night and will read it again soon.

Mike, glad you enjoy the new forum. The way to do it is precisely what you did: any time you have a comment on one on the books currently one the virtual shelf, just add it as a reply to the initial post. (I'm not positive whether users can open new threads within a forum, I'm new to the GR system.)

And yes, one of the things I appreciate about Seneca is that he is by far the most poetic of the three Great Roman Stoics. As I mentioned in this post on my blog: http://tinyurl.com/zh59vml, they have different personalities, each to be appreciated in its own ways.

Thanks for the link, Massimo. I enjoyed your essay. I think Seneca is my favorite of the big 3 because he seems less sure of himself. He seems to say "read all of the philosophers", then think for yourself. He trusts that we'll see the value of virtue. And see it better for thinking it through ourselves.

I've been rereading slowly. What a great book. I just went over chapter 10. He talks about examining our past. The past is a treasure available to study at any time. The past is fixed unlike the present and past are subject to fate and changeable. The busy person has no time to study her past and is ever caught up in the pleasures of the present. He also adds that those living life controlled by the passions are not to be criticized, but instructed.

Mike,

Yes, I like the idea of (gently) instructing people, rather than criticizing them. I try to make that my modus operandi, but sometimes I slip...

I actually prefer other Stoics because they are less poetic. LOL I was never into poetry. To each their own, in that case. To be fair, I think it's also important to remember that Seneca was the Stoic most intentionally writing for the public. I can be put off by Epictetus, but I try to keep in mind that he was instructing a bunch of young men (late teens, early 20s), spoke in hyperbole and I hope he had a sick sense of humor (rather than being as much of a jerk as he appeared to be in some instances). Marcus was, of course, supposedly writing only to himself and admonishing himself in his private journal. I know Seneca can seem more human in terms of the meaning of his writing (appreciate that too), but in terms of writing style, I actually consider Marcus and Epictetus more genuine. Again, I also have a bias against poetry LOL

David,

I actually tend to agree. I appreciate the three great Roman Stoics each for their own peculiarities, as I explain here: http://tinyurl.com/zh59vml

And yes, I think it's pretty clear that Epictetus wasn't a jerk, he just had a wicked sense of humor...

It just occurred to me that this essay is Seneca's elaboration on Plato's "the unexamined life is not worth living!" His terminology is a little confusing -- he is a Stoic after all. Busy does not mean that one is accomplishing things, only that one's life is not busy. Leisure doesn't mean sleeping or daydreaming all day. I think leisure to Seneca is reading and practicing philosophy. I suppose it takes true leisure to devote and have time for philosophy.

Mike Monje wrote: "It just occurred to me that this essay is Seneca's elaboration on Plato's "the unexamined life is not worth living!" His terminology is a little confusing -- he is a Stoic after all. Busy does not ..."

Mike, I agree. I think he is also commenting on what studying philosophy really means. Another thing I think he comments on is what time is worth. I find he emphasizes what time is worth in his writings more than in any other Stoic writings we have. I find it very helpful to view time as having a price and a value. The reason is that I waste a lot of time. LOL I think he partly points out that people think they are using their time well just by doing things rather than examining their lives and why they do what they do.

People assume that examining their lives would be a waste of time, when in reality it is crucial to do so if one doesn't want to waste time. Are we waiting for a "good" thing to happen? What are we assuming is good? Why aren't we noticing the good that is always available to us? If we could notice that, by studying philosophy, then wouldn't the time we spend be far more quality time? It reminds me of some Buddhist text I read a while ago where the Buddha said that one who spends a day being truly aware has lived more than one who spent a lifetime distracted (I'm not a Buddhist and I'm only remembering the gist of it.).

David, I guess we all waste a lot of time. I suspect it is part of being human. I wish I had read this when I was 27 instead of 67. Even though I'm sure Seneca would tell me that such thinking is a waste of time.
I loved the story about Turranius in the last chapter.

David, bringing up the Buddha story is a good point. Seneca's busy life and the distracted life the Buddha mentioned are similar if not the same, I suppose. Buddha's answer was the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold path; Seneca's philosophy. Both suggest that we find our own way, rather than a system. I'm thinking of the Buddhist tradition that Buddha isn't the moon, but a finger pointing at the moon.

Mike Monje wrote: "David, bringing up the Buddha story is a good point. Seneca's busy life and the distracted life the Buddha mentioned are similar if not the same, I suppose. Buddha's answer was the 4 Noble Truths a..."

I actually think the only similarity is that both the Buddha and Seneca considered you truly living if you consider why you do what you do and you live mindfully in awareness. The specifics of mindfulness, the path one should take, the way the mind works, the point of philosophy, the way the universe works, etc. etc. all differ. I do not see nearly as much similarity between Buddhism and Stoicism as many people seem to.

David, I also see similarities in the importance of living virtuously (Right Actions, Speech, and Livelihood) and the reliance on reason (Right View). The big difference (and the reason I'm not Buddhist either, is the Buddhist thought on enlightenment.

One thing that struck me about On the Shortness of Life was Seneca's emphasis on contemplating one's life over time. My impression before this essay was that Stoics would encourage people to stay present (as I thought Marcus did). Staying present still seems important to me as that is what helps you stay in the process of being virtuous and it seems crucial for Stoic mindfulness (proper use of impressions). Perhaps someone could help me with this? I guess Seneca didn't necessarily contradict this, because it just meant that it is good to use some time to reflect on where your life has gone, what you learned, what's going on right now and where your life is going? Otherwise, staying present would still be important and making sure you spend time wisely requires staying present and being aware of time as it passes?

Nevermind, I think I found my answer :-) http://misc-stoica.blogspot.com/2015/...

"There are two interesting texts where this idea is developed, one in Epictetus and one in Marcus Aurelius. The key term here is prosochê, which is usually translated as ‘attention’. Epictetus’s Discourses 4.12 is devoted to this notion. There Epictetus exhorts his readers to pay attention not to the present moment but rather to a number of fundamental principles, none of which will come as any great surprise to readers familiar with his work: i) no one can control another person’s faculty of choice (proairesis), ii) this is where all good and evil reside, and so consequently iii) each person has complete control over good and evil in their lives. What is striking is Epictetus’s insistence that one’s attention to these principles must be maintained at all times without exception and that if one falls into inattentiveness poor behaviour and distress will follow almost immediately. Epictetean mindfulness demands constant vigilance lest one lose sight of central Stoic ideas even for a moment."

John Sellars is quite helpful. I can't wait to read his work. I also plan on reading his blog more.