Science Fiction Aficionados discussion

I watched the first episode, and I agree - it looks intriguing.

I agree, it looks intriguing.

I watched the pre-Mars, Mars 101 and Mars 202 episodes from On-Demand yesterday and today.

The background music sucks, but I do like the shows format.

I haven't been watching. But that's because I don't trust NGC since they treat Bill O'Reilly's books as histories.

Oh, it is a mix of reality and fiction, but that does not mean it's not entertaining.

However, I imagine for many people that can be discerning, if one is looking for factual events.

In my unprofessional opinion, with our current technology, all the money in the world cannot get us to Mars and back. If it takes a three stage rocket to get out of earths orbit, it will probably take a three stage rocket to get off Mars. There will need a breakthrough in technology first for a round trip to Mars.

Like the tv show, Mars is a one way trip.

Also, if I remember, those Bio Dome experiments several years ago where a groups of people tried to survive in a confined area were all failures.

I have an interesting old book written during the Great Depression, Five Acres and Independence. This old book is a bit outdated, but the main concept is there. In order to survive independently, one needs a lot of space per individual to live an independent life.

If one wants to survive on a Mars, one is going to need some very very large domes.

We could probably do it. I just don't see us doing it in the political climate we have now.

Have you ever read Man Plus? I found that a very creepy way to get to Mars.

I have "not", read Man Plus. Another book to be placed on my TBR list.

We think differently, I do not believe politics has anything to do with going to Mars. The technology is just not there yet. I believe money is better spent on research to find new technologies that may get us there and back. I am not sure about those one way trips is a good idea.

Mickey wrote: " I am not sure about those one way trips is a good idea. "

Said the crew of the Santa Maria.

Laz wrote: "Mickey wrote: " I am not sure about those one way trips is a good idea. "

Said the crew of the Santa Maria."

Oh, I truly believe that Christopher Columbus's crew had hopes of returning home. Those on Mars will have no hope in returning home using current technology.

Just started episode two and ordered the latest Elon Musk bio. But you guys are right, nothing is going to get done under the fat thumb of Trump. We'll be lucky we still have breathable air...

Episode 3 is now on.

Lena wrote: "Just started episode two and ordered the latest Elon Musk bio. But you guys are right, nothing is going to get done under the fat thumb of Trump. We'll be lucky we still have breathable air..."

We have the technology, and commercial ventures can go forward. I like the idea of continuing to put new money into the advancement of the technologies. I (kinda) think differently about the present status quo...we can do it right now, today. I...kinda know a guy...at SpaceX. What question should I ask him on behalf of the group about this? The one I had been thinking of goes something like, "Is everyone there nervous that ambitions for Mars will be adversely affected by...[x]?" How fun.

If I could ask a question I would inquire if they would begin the centuries long task of terraforming while building domes etc. Do we adapt to accept Mars like some science outpost in Antarctica or are we actively looking to build a new home?

Lena wrote: "If I could ask a question I would inquire if they would begin the centuries long task terraforming while building domes etc. Do we adapt to accept Mars like some science outpost in Antarctica or ar..."

I will boldly close my eyes and fire this one off to him today :-) I've started a separate questionsforChrislist.txt for this so I can copy/paste any info I might get.

Very cool LN.

Mickey wrote: ".... If it takes a three stage rocket to get out of earths orbit, it will probably take a three stage rocket to get off Mars..."

Escape velocity (km/s):
Mars: 5.03
Earth: 11.19

So the escape velocity of Mars is only 45% that of Earth....so you'd only need a 1.35 stage rocket, not a 3 stage!
[3 * 0.45 = 1.35]

Some mission proposals call for making fuel in situ to reduce the need to bring a hundred tons of fuel along. But if you had the time and money you could always shuttle fuel or complete solid fuel boosters to Mars after the fact.

I don't look for this to happen anytime soon, but the actual tech is not beyond current development.

As for biodomes ... well how many experiments have been done? Seems to me there's been way too few actual trials of this kind of tech. Biodome 2 was classified as a failure ultimately but they still learned an awful lot by trying it.

The last SpaceX rocket using a stage of a rocket that could land on its tail was a big achievement. To get to Mars and back will require a single stage rocket. Still the technology does not exist yet to get to mars and back. Or some new tech like the Jupiter 2 from "lost in space" :)

As for terraforming Mars, I am not sure that is possible either since Mars has a very week magnetic field. Therefore any atmosphere will leak out into space. The core of Mars is solid, I think not sure.

A quote from someone else: "The worst piece of real estate on Earth is worth more than the best piece of real estate on Mars".

However, I am more in favor of a permanent base on the Moon than Mars. This may help in the incremental development that will get us to Mars. The technology does exist for a Moon base.

Still this all reminds me of this science fiction book:
The Space Merchants

If I am not mistaken and I am often wrong, the reason the BioDomes failed, is that there were too many plants and too many people for a small area. This left an imbalance of CO2 and Oxygen for plants and humans to do well. Separate Domes for human and plant habitation (greenhouses) might work better.

However, in my "unprofessional" opinion, the same thing here on earth is also an imbalance in numbers between plants and humans that is also unsustainable.

Sara wrote: "It would be a good idea to have a sort of "rest stop" between earth and Mars or perhaps earth and the outer planets."

I like this concept, but the orbital dynamics get tricky, as some of these way-stations would be on the other side of the sun. Getting them all to align in a useful configuration would be very difficult.

Mickey wrote: "If I am not mistaken and I am often wrong, the reason the BioDomes failed, is that there were too many plants and too many people for a small area. This left an imbalance of CO2 and Oxygen for plan..."

It was actually found that the imbalance between CO2 and O2 in Bioshpere 2 was caused by the reaction of CO2 with the concrete used for the floor. The reaction caused the accretion of calcium carbonate, a solid, so both CO2 and O2 were being sequestered in the floor.

So the failure would actually not have happened if the biodome had been in a space station or anywhere where concrete was not used!

There was a short-lived second mission which was supposed to have run for 10 months but it was pretty much scuttled by bad management, bureaucratic squabbles, and by some rather bizarre behavior by some of the first mission's crew (read Wikipedia on it). And ultimately, the company that owned/ran it dissolved, ending the project.

There have been other closed eco-system research facilities, as you'd expect, because any seriously long term extraterrestrial habitat is going to have to need this tech. Space stations, moon bases, Mars, wherever ... it's not practical to keep shipping food, water, and atmosphere to other places.

Watched episode three last night. The fire was scary but I was more afraid of what was going to happen when a half dozen type A personalities were stuffed in a shoe box. You can't tell me that's not going to go Lord of the Flies or worse - Pandorum. Shiver. CO2 O2 gravity water fuel weather - bitch please - WE the weak link.

Lena wrote: "Watched episode three last night. The fire was scary but I was more afraid of what was going to happen when a half dozen type A personalities were stuffed in a shoe box. You can't tell me that's no..."

Scary? About a fictional story?
Hmmm...
But then again, when I was much younger, I laughed through out the movie "Exorcist" as being absolutely ridiculous. But then again, I was drunk during the movie.

I read that on wiki also, most humorous.

I think the problem is that scientists tends to be anti authoritative. So a military command structure on a Mars base or in a Biosphere with a bunch of scientists would be counter intuitive. Perhaps some military types would need to go along in order to keep egos in check.

As one who leans towards science, I am also a little bit on the anarchist side :)

Mickey I've been in a fire, I promise it's scary. Terrifying when you think of not being able to escape by simply going outside.

Lena wrote: "Mickey I've been in a fire, I promise it's scary. Terrifying when you think of not being able to escape by simply going outside."

So I see, said the blind man.
I guess I am lucky in which I have never been in a situation that I could not walk away from.

Sara wrote: "Its human behavior that is going to cause the most problems."

My favorite book on human behavior and personality typing and personality conflicts:
Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence

I am a Messed up: ENTJ :)

Sara wrote: "Micah wrote: "Mickey wrote: "If I am not mistaken and I am often wrong, the reason the BioDomes failed, is that there were too many plants and too many people for a small area. This left an imbalan..."

In my recollection the original Bio Dome was more of a publicity stunt than science. The planning of food, water atmosphere was almost done for photographic reasons. In any case, mold was a serious problem and excessive CO2 another serious one. The crew were pampered B-list socialites looking for a thrill. None could take the personal discipline such a stint requires. They fought among themselves, stole food, etc., etc.

Sara wrote: " Its human behavior that is going to cause the most problems..."

Well...that's true of everything we do, innit? ];>

I've thought a lot about these tightly closed environments. Be they remote bases on planetary bodies or generation ships or even space stations out of easy reach of rescue and resupply missions, it's most likely that the social order needed to maintain them in working order for a long period of time is going to have to be very authoritarian.

When the ecosystem is really small and everything MUST be kept tightly controlled and balanced...when there's absolutely no room for error, you're really kind of forced into needing an almost oppressively ordered society. Illnesses are a huge threat. Population control would be paramount. One person going rogue, flying off the deep end, or not following strict procedure is likely to jeopardize the lives of everyone.

How could you not end up with an authoritarian system under those conditions? [Be that civilian or military.]

Not saying I like that, but I think it would be inevitable. (Unless you could do something equally distasteful like genetically engineer the crew to be docile followers who instinctively do everything by the book without any ego or personal conflicts. OR ... very small crews of, say, family size supplemented by highly sophisticated robotics.)

Micah wrote: "Sara wrote: " Its human behavior that is going to cause the most problems..."

Well...that's true of everything we do, innit? ];>

I've thought a lot about these tightly closed environments. Be the..."

And living on Mars is not going to be the idyllic scenario so often pictured (and dreamt of). First-off, they will be very little ambling around. walking staff in hand, exploring the hills and valleys of Mars. Without a Van Allen belt, cosmic radiation is too strong and you would die in a few months.

Between the radiation, cold, and lesser gravity I don't think you could safely be pregnant there.

Really looking forward to tomorrow's episode, the last one ended too soon! Has anyone read Stranger in Strange land? What was the hypothesis there about achieving full term pregnancy on Mars?

I "think" the theory is: they are living in an underground cavern where there is frozen water. Living underground blocks ultraviolet radiation, water can provide air, drinking and water for crops.

However some caves in the world are naturally radioactive, but not all. I assume Mars might be the same.

Thanks Mickey. I think Sara is right that sterilization for the men (because a hysterectomy would be too harsh on a woman) is something to be taken seriously. Babies happen. Pills, restrictions, etc...

Sara wrote: "I wonder if they would sterilize the astronauts before their trip? I mean Mars has no magnetosphere which would lead me to believe that radiation would be an issue as well as limited resources. I w..."

You are absolutely right! Because there is no van Allen belt to block cosmic radiation (as we have on Earth) anyone clambering around on the surface of Mars will quickly acrete lethal doses of radiation.

Mickey wrote: "I "think" the theory is: they are living in an underground cavern where there is frozen water. Living underground blocks ultraviolet radiation, water can provide air, drinking and water for crops. ..."

If you want to live underground, it would be much easier to do so here on Earth.

Tom wrote: "If you want to live underground, it would be much easier to do so here on Earth."

Everything is "easier" on Earth.

The earth still has a molten core and beneath earth's surface is a bit active. Mars I "think" has a solid core and maybe less active underground.

Still, I see the show as more fiction than reality. In four years those living on Mars has a lot of building materials. I doubt 3-D printers they brought along is going to make all of those building materials from Mars regolith. To send large amounts of building material from earth to Mars will need allot of really big heavy lift rockets that are super expensive.

But we can still dream. I am looking forward to the new "Expanse" shows on SYFY channel in next two months.

Thank you Sara, I didn't realize the story was that odd. In terms of "grok" I recently read about a fish that's adapted to pollution,
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cnbc.c...
So maybe it's not beyond us after a few generations but that would imply living and probably gestating in some radiation. The Expanse novels I've read made a big deal about the Belters gestating on Ganymede for the gravity. Mars has better gravity.
https://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/we...

Transformed the Earth? Why there is talk about genetically engineering humans for adaptation to Mars environment.

What will humans look like in 100 years?
https://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriqu...

I do disagree with the TED talk. I think it is unethical to experiment on humans. How many people will have to suffer before they get it right. To create people for different environments in which they will suffer for others to have a better life. I have my doubts.

Sara wrote: "Mickey wrote: "Tom wrote: "If you want to live underground, it would be much easier to do so here on Earth."

Everything is "easier" on Earth.

The earth still has a molten core and beneath earth'..."

Aah, "terraforming," the other wet dream of Mars aficionados. The idea that by importing trillions of tons of water ice from asteroids, by darkening portions of the surface of Mars, by growing crops in domes to produce oxygen, eventually we could get a livable atmosphere and temperature on the Martian equator. Unfortunately, without a magnetic field, surface dwellers would still be under deadly cosmic ray radiation, and the weak gravity probably can't hold an atmosphere. The most optimistic prediction I've hear is 10,000 years to get the job done.. (Sorry.)

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a new home. Just a worse (livability) Antarctica science station.

With global warming on its way on Earth or Mars inhospitable environment, either way we will be living underground or in domes.

True Mickey.

But, a wonderful fantasy to dream about, as long as you don't actually have to go.

Now should we render the Earth entirely uninhabitable, then MAYBE living underground on Mars is one way to save the human race from extinction. But absent that, it is not a life anyone should volunteer for