Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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BIBLE WARNINGS - Does Anyone Take Them Seriously?
Robert - I don't have much commentary on this other than "Yes and Yes". Yes, most Christians take Biblical warnings seriously but, there are a lot of them so it's hard to be cognizant of everything at once; and, Yes, it is EXTREMELY dangerous to allow Satan and his minions into our midst.
I like to tell a fable I call the Four Baboons.Four hungry baboons walking along the river caught the scent of a delicious meal on the other side. As they charged down to the bank, a grizzled old ape stopped them.
"Do not try to cross the river here. It is full of crocodiles. They will eat you all before you reach the other side."
"But there is so much food on the other side," they argued in unison.
The ape replied, "If you walk three miles upriver, you will find a bridge. It is safe to cross there."
Of course, three miles is just too far for a hungry baboon to walk, so they began to argue with the ape.
"Who are you to tell us what to do?" asked the first baboon. "What qualifies you to give us advice?"
The ape stepped closer so that they could see his mangled leg and what was left of his right hand. One of his eyes was blind behind a deep gash in his face. "I tried to swim this river, and my own testimony qualifies my advice."
The second baboon stepped forward and said, "There are four of us, and only one of you. And besides, you're probably slower than us. Why shouldn't I trust my chances of out-swimming those crocodiles, or at least out-swimming one of my friends?"
The ape replied, "There were four of my kind, too, before we tried to cross the river. What makes you so sure that you are the fastest of all your friends?"
The third baboon stepped forward and accused the ape, "Why should we listen to you. Clearly you were dumb enough to get caught, but we are more clever than you."
The ape opened his mouth to counter this third refusal to listen, but the fourth baboon cut him off.
"If you say another word," the baboon warned, "I'll take your other eye out myself."
And with that, the ape left the baboons to try their own luck with the river.
Robert wrote: "The Bible is FILLED with WARNINGS from God to His people... yet so many "Christians" seem to IGNORE them.Is it WISE to AVOID Warnings from God to us?
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For example:
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
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In light of this passage alone... shouldn't believers be diligently WATCHFUL?
Robert:
Do you realize that, based upon the context of the above verses, part of that warning was against people who were teaching about "another Jesus"? That is, a Jesus other than the one described in Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Notice part of the context below where this is confirmed.
"For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough." (2 Corinthians 11:4 -- English Standard Version)
I point that out because millions of people who insist they are following scripture actually choose traditions of men (religious doctrines) that are not supported by scripture.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "Do you realize that, based upon the context of the above verses, part of that warning was against people who were teaching about "another Jesus"? ..."My response: why don't you tell us about your Jesus, with Scripture, so that we can compare YOUR doctrine with what the Bible actually says.
Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Do you realize that, based upon the context of the above verses, part of that warning was against people who were teaching about "another Jesus"? ..."My response: why don't you tell us about your Jesus, with Scripture, so that we can compare YOUR doctrine with what the Bible actually says."
Robert:
Considering that you are the one giving people warnings in your OP about what they should be looking for in scripture and what they should not ignore, I believe the ball is in your court as far as an explanation of who the Jesus of the Bible actually is. This is your thread after all. I would be the last person to jump the gun in somebody else's thread.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Do you realize that, based upon the context of the above verses, part of that warning was against people who were teaching about "another Jesus"? ..."My response:..."
Well said ...
Alter2Ego wrote: "Considering that you are the one giving people warnings in your OP about what they should be looking for in scripture and what they should not ignore, I believe the ball is in your court as far as an explanation of who the Jesus of the Bible actually is...."My response: I asked. Feel free not to answer. Your choice.
Alter2Ego - hospitals for the criminally insane are full of people ABSOUTELY CERTAIN they are the alternative Jesus. Robert rightfully quotes from Scripture recognizing Jesus of the Trinity as the true fully man/fully human divinity. He doesn't need to elaborate further. If you have evidence of some hidden Jesus, come forth with it or shut up!
Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego - hospitals for the criminally insane are full of people ABSOUTELY CERTAIN they are the alternative Jesus. Robert rightfully quotes from Scripture recognizing Jesus of the Trinity as the true fully man/fully human divinity. He doesn't need to elaborate further. If you have evidence of some hidden Jesus, come forth with it or shut up! "Robert (#2):
I suggest you go back and read everything posted by Robert (#1) in this thread, and you will see that he said absolutely nothing about Trinity.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Robert wrote: "He doesn't need to elaborate further. If you have evidence of some hidden Jesus, come forth with it or shut up! "Robert (#2):
I can see that Trinity is a touchy subject for you (and I suspect for quite a few people on this forum), based on the fact that you are now giving me the alternative to put up or "shut up!"
Is that how you normally behave towards those with differing viewpoints? Or did I catch you on a bad day? You really should act your age and control your behavior.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "I can see that Trinity is a touchy subject for you (and I suspect for quite a few people on this forum), based on the fact that you are now giving me the alternative to put up or "shut up!..."My response: The Trinity is the TRUTH according to the Bible.
Now tell us about your Christ. Is he a christ that that the TRUE Jesus of the Bible WARNED us about?
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets...
Alter2ego - you need to show your cards if you want to play on this board. This isn't some forum where you blame the other guy for HIS disillusion with your lack of facts.
Our guest kind of sounds like a J.W.. or possibly a liberal Muslim? Or a hippy tree hugging Eco-Jesus follower? Who knows.But the Bible is Clear: it's ALL about the real Jesus. The Father insists.
(And no, Michael the angel is not wearing a Jesus suit. That's DUMB)
Rod wrote: "Our guest kind of sounds like a J.W.. or possibly a liberal Muslim? Or a hippy tree hugging Eco-Jesus follower? Who knows..."I am going with the JW option, since he is too ashamed to tell us about his Jesus.
If they claim to be Christian but don't accept Jesus as God: then either J.W. or just really stupid. (Or Muslim -same thing)
Rod wrote: "If they claim to be Christian but don't accept Jesus as God: then either J.W. or just really stupid. (Or Muslim -same thing)"Agreed!
Rod, Robert - Agreed! Did all 3 of us agree on something? Stop the presses!
LOL!!!!I will agree with anyone, when they are in agreement with the Bible.
I will agree with the Bible - especially when every other theologian mocks me or simply doesn't understand. Last Man Standing.Although I'd rather not stand alone.
Rod wrote: "I will agree with the Bible - especially when every other theologian mocks me or simply doesn't understand. Last Man Standing.Although I'd rather not stand alone."
Me too. That is why I never stand on my opinions... but upon the quoted Word of God.
Well, I wouldn't go that far... we all make opinions based on our biases. Don't hold to them too tightly. Almost every prophet had bAd days.
Rod wrote: "Well, I wouldn't go that far... we all make opinions based on our biases. Don't hold to them too tightly. Almost every prophet had bAd days."When one QUOTES the Bible and adds NO commentary or private interpretations... that is NOT an OPINION... that is the Word of God!
What often happens is people don't like what God said... so they re-define it to suit them.
I always find it humorous when I quote the Bible and nothing else... then some Christian says..."God didn't mean that!"
My response to them is: "God meant exactly what He said... you understood it perfectly... and you don't like it!"
Rod wrote: "In what language? This isn't math."The original ones.
How do you know you have them perfectly understood?Best not to trust your King James English blindly.
But God's in charge. We get the point.
Fun question Robert:If you found out the God of the universe wasn't Omniscient to YOUR understanding- would you still worship Him?
Read an Arminian author who boasted: "if the Calvinist God is true - I'd rather go to hell." He just might do that.
Rod, Robert - I agree with the Bible in principle, but not always in fact. Being a scientist helps me discard the woefully inept attempts by Biblical authors to explain their physical surroundings. Sure the wall at Jericho was difficult to surmount and cost a lot of casualties, but walking around and blowing trumpets didn't help.
Crazy stories are fun! By that theory: what if that silly Jesus story isn't true either?
Rod wrote: "How do you know you have them perfectly understood?Best not to trust your King James English blindly.
But God's in charge. We get the point."
My response: God does, and He promised to protect them. Besides, like any other word, with a reliable dictionary... it is not difficult.
Rod wrote: "Fun question Robert:If you found out the God of the universe wasn't Omniscient to YOUR understanding- would you still worship Him?..."
My response: NOPE! I ONLY worship the TRUE God of the Bible Who says He knows EVERYTHING.
I would NEVER worship a FALSE god who is LIMITED.
Robert wrote: "Rod, Robert - I agree with the Bible in principle, but not always in fact. Being a scientist helps me discard the woefully inept attempts by Biblical authors to explain their physical surroundings...."If God is WRONG about anything... HE IS NOT GOD.
God says He PROTECTS His Word...
...God is RIGHT... humanistic science is WRONG!
So God knows all eternity? That's a heavy order - not sure the bible shows that. (Not convinced it even attempts to say it either.)
Rod wrote: "So God knows all eternity? That's a heavy order - not sure the bible shows that. (Not convinced it even attempts to say it either.)"What is really sorrowful is that you appear to believe in a much lesser god... a god who is limited and does not know what the true God of the Bible says He knows... EVERYTHING!!!!
1 John 3:20 - "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things ."
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
Define: All Things.Seems you are forcing it into your assumption zone. What is the context of All Things. Don't assume this is a blanket statement for all that will ever be. Please post scriptures to prove your point: very specific ones.
Rod wrote: "Define: All Things.Seems you are forcing it into your assumption zone. What is the context of All Things. Don't assume this is a blanket statement for all that will ever be. Please post scripture..."
ALL THINGS = Strong's G3956 - pas - "πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever. "
It is YOU who is FORCING YOUR OPINION of a weak, limited, and impotent god.
According to God - ALL THINGS = ALL THINGS
According to Rod - ALL THINGS = SOME THINGS
Rod wrote: "Please post scriptures to prove your point: very specific ones..."My response: Please READ my posts. You will see CLEAR Scriptures quoted. I would prefer not to have to repeat myself.
1 John 3:20 - "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things ."
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
There is ONLY ONE reason that you want to serve a LIMITED and NOT all powerful god... and that reason is...The TRUE and omniscient God of the Bible does NOT FIT into the authoritarian, dictatorial, unloving god of Rod.
Your two scripture examples were very limited and did not speak of eternal omniscience through time. Context context context.All things of the heart is not all things of time.
My God isn't limited: he's purposeful throughout scripture.
Rod wrote: "Your two scripture examples were very limited and did not speak of eternal omniscience through time. Context context context..."My response: YOUR god is very limited.
Rod wrote: "Your two scripture examples were very limited and did not speak of eternal omniscience through time. Context context context.All things of the heart is not all things of time..."
ALL THINGS... IS ALL THINGS!
Try reading the definition of the word GOD CHOSE. God's Word does NOT ALLOW for YOUR LIMITATIONS.
I am glad that I do NOT serve an IMPOTENT god who is NOT omniscient... and the sad thing is, you REJECT God... because Who He is REJECTS your favored, but false, doctrines.
Hey, I'm just trying to get my God clearly from the pages of scripture- not from opinion and unlimited fantasy.Show me the verses where He acts in limitless omniscience of time.
Rod wrote: "Hey, I'm just trying to get my God clearly from the pages of scripture- not from opinion and unlimited fantasy."My response: Apparently NOT! One cannot show you from the Scriptures... because you REJECT the Scriptures.
(Right from the pages of Scripture - below this line)
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1 John 3:20 - "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things ."
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
The only thing I question is your interpretation of scriptures. If God has a time machine then I'm okay with that. But don't create things to make a God in your image.
Show me the verses ---- or it's just opinion.
Rod wrote: "The only thing I question is your interpretation of scriptures..."My response: Below this line is MY interpretation...
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1 John 3:20 - "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things ."
John 16:30 - "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things , and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
So, do I believe...the Word of God (He KNOWS ALL THINGS)...
or
the word of Rod (Gode DOESN'T KNOWS ALL THINGS)...
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I know the answer I choose.
Romans 3:4 - "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar..."
So let me get this straight:You're using a 19th century H.G. Wells understanding of time travel to interpret a 1st century book?
How amusing.
Is it WISE to AVOID Warnings from God to us?
______________
For example:
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
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In light of this passage alone... shouldn't believers be diligently WATCHFUL?
Are we allowing SATAN and his FALSE ministers into our "fellowship" ?
Isn't this dangerous? DEADLY DANGEROUS?