Catholic Thought discussion

Finally I found my book! I had been reading to catch up and tend to sleep with 4-5 pillows on the bed. I couldn't find this thing ANYWHERE and we've been decorating for Christmas so I worried it was out with the trash or recycling. Anyway, today I found it between some pillows.

Okay, so back to our story.

For me, Chapter 9 was very difficult. I am so tired of hearing (reading) people argue about the nature of Christ! Their bad behavior knows no bounds and we are rollling into the 700's and STILL fighting about this stuff!!!!

I don't have the heart to recap these ridiculous political and religious manueverings, but I will say I did enjoy learning the background behind Shi'ites and Sunnis on page 250. At first I was thinking it would make more sense to follow the grandson of Muhammad, but then I thought of the generations of rulers of the Roman Empire simply their because of DNA and how worthless that was. As Christians we have tended to put a lot of emphasis on heritage as well (Christ honored as descending from David's line and vice versa). Once again there is this fork in the road. Is it hypocritical to think one way for your preferred religion and not do the same for the other religion? Probably so. But, then you wonder (or maybe it's just me wondering)....who would I have followed. And, of course, they fight amongst themselves as badly as any Christian.

I think I'm still not clear on St. Isidore of Seville and now I can't find the passages to even comment on what I was thinking about.

Did anyone else read of the invention of liquid fire pouring from the battleships of the Christians to melt the naval ships of the Muslims with a sinking feeling? It's so hard to read of the violence of that time and not think of the violence in our world today.

It was interesting that Spain remained largely in-house rather than sending out missionaries in the world as neighboring nations did. It's so interesting to read the history of these nations. I think Dr. Carroll is doing a terrific job of explaining the Muslim background.

Leslie wrote: "Finally I found my book! I had been reading to catch up and tend to sleep with 4-5 pillows on the bed. I couldn't find this thing ANYWHERE and we've been decorating for Christmas so I worried it wa..."

The invention of “liquid fire” or “Greek fire” by the Byzantines is rather well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire. They will invent another weapon, which will prove to be their downfall on account of a traitor who will sell it to the Moslems. But that will probably be covered in Volume III (if we ever get to it).

Chapter 9 “Not My Will, But Thine Be Done”: The Monothelite Crisis (642-683)

Moslems are attacking Christians in force and Christians are arguing over whether Christ had one will or three, human and divine. This became more important than Muslim threat or division between Rome and Constantinople churches. Monothelitism that was offered by the East, Carroll writes, “was really a kind of political compromise masquerading as theology” (p. 242). This argument takes on the worst turn when Pope Martin is abducted, imprisoned, falsely tried, exiled to Crimea where he dies.

The Moslems have their first civil war in 656-661 and their center is no longer Medina or Mecca but Damascus. Nevertheless they attack Constantinople in force and are repulsed only by the invention of “liquid fire”—naphtha and perhaps primitive gunpowder. When the Damascus caliph dies another civil struggle breaks out which forms the beginning of the Shiite and Sunni split when Mohammed’s grandson is killed.

Ecumenical council of Constantinople of 680-681 brought agreement between the East and West churches, except with the Antioch church, which remained Monophysite despite the arguments presented at the council to which all the other delegates agreed on.

This council also anathematized--formerly excommunicated--and expelled from the Church Honorius, formerly Pope of Rome over the heresy first proposed probably by Sergius, Patriarch of Constantinople. This is a significant event because it’s the only example of a Pope condemned for heresy by an authoritative body. The Pope of the time was not present at the council and died before the news reached him. The new Pope St. Leo II explained the council’s reasons in several letters but did not explicitly condemn Pope Honorius.

Carroll gives us short updates on Merovignian Franks and Spanish Visigoths. There are saints in the land of the Franks and much barbarian savagery otherwise. Spain has very few saints and much persecution and infighting. Then the Moslems overrun most of Spain starting in 685.

In this chapter Dr. Carroll offers a brief and clear statement of Monothelitism; the belief that Christ had only a divine will, not a human will. Carroll also points to the difficulty this would cause for the efficacy of the redemption of mankind, a theological observation which few historians would recognize. Carroll also observes that Monothelitism could not stand close theological examination. Most of it’s followers were not really religious leaders; they were, in my opinion, primarily political hacks.

It seems that after Constantine established Constantinople as the eastern kingdom; that attracted a number of political players who were intent upon driving a wedge between east and west. The number of heresies in the east had less to do with theology than attempting to gain position and power.

There is an interesting note on page 244 about having two Popes in the year 654/655. After Pope Martin had been gone more than a year the clergy of Rome assumed he was dead and elected Eugenius I as Pope. When Martin became aware of a new pope; he acknowledged him and wished him well, which was taken as his resignation. Given the years of torture he had been subjected to by the “bishop” of Constantinople I would imagine that Pope Martin desired only peace and quiet.

We also see the Muslim conquest continue. There is a quote dated 681 on page 250;

“Allahu akbar! If my course were not stopped by the sea, I would still ride on to the unknown kingdoms of the west, preaching the unity of God, and putting to the sword the rebellious nations who worship any other god but him.”

With this volume being published in 1987, Dr. Carroll could not have envisioned how vividly these words would impact modern readers.

Chapter 10 “The Climactic Arab Assault” (683-733)

As the Moslems fought among each other and moved into Egypt, and into all of North Africa, and soon enough into Spain, Irish and English missionaries made inroads into pagan mainland of Europe—Germany and Netherlands—and gained converts to the Faith.

Constantinople though barely able to defend itself against the Moslems, thanks mostly to a weapon by Callinicus the inventor, had assassinations, overthrown monarchs, renewed schism, while the militant Moslems were stronger than ever.
There was trouble in the Gibraltar with a traitor to Christianity named Count Julian who sold the Straits of Gibraltar to the Moslems and converted to the heresy. The Visigoth kingdom with king Roderick was conquered quickly all the way to the capital of Toledo in 711.

It is interesting how the Moslems treated their own heroes. As soon as the Damascus Caliph dies his successor immediately brutalizes and kills the military victors who led the Spanish conquest, and even assassinated the one left in charge of the conquered Spain while he was in prayer in a mosque. They were no better than the Romans were especially during the third and fourth centuries when the Praetorian Guard assassinated about a dozen emperors. The jealous Damascus caliph Sulaiman also disposed of his commander on the Eastern front. The Moslems made inroads into India and even sent an embassy to the Chinese emperor. They went farther than Alexander of Macedonia.

Carroll tells us the story of heroic Pelayo, the last holdout against the Moors whose brave stand against them eventually led to the long history of Spain’s reconquest. Equally heroic and more significant is the Franks’ last stand against the Moors under Charles Martel in the battle of Tours in 732.

The Byzantine Emperor Leo III started the iconoclastic movement after the 726 earthquake. It brought minimal presence of images, absence of freestanding statues in Orthodox Christian churches that remains to this day except only for the famed icons. Did Emperor Leo III have also in mind the rejections of previous Greek pagan statues, which implied veneration of the image itself, and not what it represented? The controversy and lack of agreement between the Popes of Rome and Emperor Leo III is major contributing event in the break of the Greek Orthodox Church but we have seen it coming for more than a century already with the monophysite and monothelite crises.

Thank you both for your recaps. I don't have the energy to recap those chapters in that way, but I do appreciate your thoughts. I need to take notes as I read, because I've been trying to do this at odd times of day and tend to forget what I wanted to share with you guys by the time I post.

I'm going to go ahead and get the next two up now. I know we are little behind. The holidays are rough. When I was mapping it out I thought about adding in a catch up week or two. It's a long book during a busy time of year, but we are halfway through and LEARNING!

For the Muslim saga is getting really depressing. So much violence. It is interesting to read of the background. I do have some personal experience with this and knew this somewhat coming into the book, but I find myself learning interesting tidbits still.

Mike wrote: "We also see the Muslim conquest continue. There is a quote dated 681 on page 250;

“Allahu akbar! If my course were not stopped by the sea, I would still ride on to the unknown kingdoms of the west, preaching the unity of God, and putting to the sword the rebellious nations who worship any other god but him.”

With this volume being published in 1987, Dr. Carroll could not have envisioned how vividly these words would impact modern readers. "

Mike, the quote you reference made by Ubqa son of Nafi in Africa also caught my attention. In sharp contrast to Ubqa's quote, on the top of page 251, Pope Agatho states:

"...acceptance of the true faith must be a free, voluntary act, never to be sought by violence and terrorism, which are utterly alien to the methods of Christ."

Such a huge difference between the methods of spreading Islam and those of Christianity.

I just finished reading chapter ten. All I can say is thank God for France's victory at the Battle of Tours! I had not realized how important that Battle was.

Leslie, I agree, we are learning! Dr. Carroll's books are very interesting.

I loved reading about the Battle of Tours. I have prayed for years for Martin and Tours on his calendar days and never really understood why! LOL. The best part of this faith is I will spend my entire life coming to understand it more deeply. There are so many moments of gratitude. I feel like that about the big people....like Constantine and Moses, but also so many saints. As I mentioned earlier, St. Cloud stood out for me.