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The Building of Christendom (A History of Christendom, Vol. 2)
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The Building of Christendom > Chapter 13 and 14

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message 1: by Leslie (new) - added it

Leslie | 359 comments In light of the hectic holiday season, I am posting the titles for the remainder of the book in advance. I know some of us have struggled to stay caught up, or just couldn't and others are reading along on schedule. Rather than drag some down, I'll post the titles and you can share as able. I will add in my own two cents along the way. I do apologize as on my end, there was a death in the family, a new job in another state, then car problems that have been unending, then the car was hit in the driveway by the woman I've been staying with as she was looking at the Christmas lights on the house. Then, more call outs at work as more people experienced deaths in the family (at least 5 in our department recently!) so 12 hr days for me. :-( Normally, I don't really struggle to keep up in here. I sincerely apologize, but I also know that this group is very advanced and we all share wholeheartedly. The best thing about our gathering space is the diversity of backgrounds that are reflected in our shared reading experience. I will add in my thoughts along the way. I already know I need to re-read this and I know I will come back later in time even and add more, so if you do enjoy this book, please check back from time to time. :-)

Happy reading, Merry Christmas and keep the great comments coming!

Leslie


message 2: by Susan Margaret (last edited Dec 15, 2016 09:37PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Susan Margaret (susanmargaretg) | 538 comments The “Slide Toward Chaos” (chapter 13) is a good description of what was happening between the years of 814 and 867. The Treaty of Verdun divided Charlemagne’s kingdom into three parts and the Franco-Papal alliance was in danger. The Vikings began their terror and sacking of cities and the Muslims continued their raids. It was sad to read of the sacking of St. Peter’s in Rome and the theft of the altar stone and other items. Also during these years the feudal system began which posed a threat to Church allegiance.

There was a lot of violence described in this chapter. The exile and persecution of St. Ignatius of Constantinople was also a very sad story. The fact that people were able to persevere and keep their faith is remarkable.


Susan Margaret (susanmargaretg) | 538 comments Leslie wrote: "In light of the hectic holiday season, I am posting the titles for the remainder of the book in advance. I know some of us have struggled to stay caught up, or just couldn't and others are reading ..."

Leslie, my prayer for you is a peaceful 2017!


Galicius | 495 comments Chapter 13: “Slide Toward Chaos” (814-867)

Carroll tells us that it was the Frankish kings who started the practice of dividing their lands among surviving sons. This caught on in Europe and became a common practice. It led to the immediate collapse of Charlemagne’s concept of united Christendom.

Carroll also makes good points about feudalism that what led to it was the overall danger from predatory invaders, Vandals, Huns, Moslems, and more often between local nobles. Locals sought protection from a nearby duke but on the negative side this leg to “narrowing of horizons” such as, for example, distracting the Spanish from furthering the reconquest of Spain when opportunities arose. An example of the destructive nature of feudalism was the “Truce of God” proclaimed by Pope Benedict IX for limiting the fighting of the feudal nobles by agreement not to fight from sunset Wednesday to sunrise Monday. (p. 461)
(Feudalism survived in parts of Europe until the second half of the nineteenth century.)


message 5: by Galicius (last edited Dec 19, 2016 07:02AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Galicius | 495 comments Chapter 14: “Men of Christian Hope” (867-910)

I don’t remember any period of time from Carroll’s Volume I where four popes were murdered during the worst of times of Roman persecutions and they were in this late ninth century and early tenth century.

Alfred of England and Alfonso of the Asturias are the hope of Christianity on the outskirts of Europe proper.

Some horror stories in Rome such as “Synod of the Corpse” when the decayed body of Pope Formosos is judged by an unworthy Pope Sergius III are so bizarre that some of the other shadowy figures of the years 898 to 900 make this age truly dark.

Carroll does not explicitly say but it seems it was the monasteries starting with the reformed abbey of St. Benedict in Cluny that built Christendom more than Rome did during these times.


Susan Margaret (susanmargaretg) | 538 comments You are right Galicius things were very dark in this period of history. Life, the Church, and politics were looking very grim in the ninth century. Being a pope or a king was very risky business. You might not live long while in office.

While Alfred the Great of England and Alfonso III the Great of Spain are contending with the Vikings and the Moors, the Pope is also plagued by Vikings and Moors and plagued by conflict from many in the Byzantine Empire. I wonder if the problems between Rome and the Byzantines were due to distance from one another and/or a difference in their cultures? It seems that many had forgotten that the Pope had the Keys to the Kingdom and they refused to listen to him.

In the last few chapters Dr. Carroll speaks often of people having their eyes put out. I wonder what the reasoning was behind this? You would think they would want to kill their enemies to permanently rid themselves of them rather than just putting out their eyes, although some did die as a result of this cruel practice.

While reading our book, I often find myself looking online for maps of the areas that Dr Carroll talks about. I wish Dr. Carroll had included maps in each chapter.


Mike During the first fourteen chapters of Dr. Carroll’s book, we have encountered a great deal of murder and mayhem. We have read about the lust for power and the lengths to which some will go in order to achieve worldly power. We have also witnessed the power of the Lord’s words to Peter, addressing him as the rock upon which He shall build His church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Century after century we have witnessed this promise hold true and the Catholic church grow stronger despite repeated attempts to completely eliminate it. I find this very heartening. The word of the Lord and his Church continues to overrule the divisive words of men.

Another very encouraging thing to consider is the number of “Doctors of the Church” we have found emerging during the era covered in the first fourteen chapters in this second volume of Dr. Carroll’s history. While he does not separately identify them as Doctors of the Church; they are held in very high esteem by the Church. Today, after close to two thousand years, there are only thirty-six Doctors of the Church. These were champions of the Church, who wrote, defined and clarified some of the most sacred teachings of the Catholic Church. The first fourteen chapters cover 324 to 910; a time period in which we find seventeen of those thirty-six champions. Based upon our reading so far you should recognize many of these Saints and Doctors of the Church:

- St. Athanasius (Lived 296-373) / Promoted in 1568 by Pius V
- St. Ephraem the Syrian (Lived 306-373) / Promoted in 1920 by Benedict XV
- St. Hilary of Poitiers (Lived 315-367) / Promoted in 1851 by Pius IX
- St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Lived 315-386) / Promoted in 1882 by Leo XIII
- St. Gregory of Nazianzus (Lived 325-389) / Promoted in 1568 by Pius V
- St. Basil the Great (Lived 329-379) / Promoted in 1568 by Pius V
- St. Ambrose (Lived 339-397) / Promoted in 1295 by Boniface VIII
- St. John Chrysostom (Lived 347-407) / Promoted in 1568 by Pius V
- St. Jerome (Lived 347-419) / Promoted in 1295 by Boniface VIII
- St. Augustine (Lived 354-430) / Promoted in 1295 by Boniface VIII
- St. Cyril of Alexandria (Lived 376-444) / Promoted in 1882 by Leo XIII
- St. Peter Chrysologous (Lived 400-450) / Promoted in 1729 by Benedict XIII
- St. Leo the Great (Lived 400-461) / Promoted in 1754 by Benedict XIV
- St. Gregory the Great (Lived 540-604) / Promoted in 1295 by Boniface VIII
- St. Isidore of Seville (Lived 560-636) / Promoted in 1722 by Innocent XIII
- St. John of Damascus (Lived 645-729) / Promoted in 1890 by Leo XIII
- St. Bede the Venerable (Lived 672-735) / Promoted in 1899 by Leo XIII
The term “Doctor” was used to denote teacher.


message 8: by Galicius (last edited Dec 20, 2016 06:21AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Galicius | 495 comments Susan Margaret wrote: "... people having their eyes put out..."

Blinding is an ancient form of punishment (torture), common in the Middle Ages as we saw, and one that persists into the 21st Century as part of the Islamic sharia law. Recall that Oedipus blinded himself when he learned the truth that he fulfilled a prophecy.


Susan Margaret (susanmargaretg) | 538 comments Mike, thank you for the list of saints and fathers.
Galicius, I had forgotten about Oedipus.


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