Catholic Thought discussion

For the early birds.....please feel free to get the comments rolling. :-)

Chapter 15 “Iron Age” (910-962)

Carroll describes the “Iron Age” in Europe as a period when almost everywhere government authority was breaking down. The Church had an “unworthy Sergius III” as the head. Italy was on the verge of anarchy. (p. 402)

Another Pope John X is imprisoned and dies in unknown circumstances. He is succeeded by Leo VI “probably not a true Pope” and another Stephen VIII dies or was killed. These last two are “not even so much as shadows in history” (p. 406). No pope could be elected without the approval of a domineering ruler in Rome (p. 414). Pope John XII is “no more than eighteen years old—addicted to hunting, hawking, and gambling, and often involved immorally with women” (p. 416). Carroll writes that this period is “rightly regarded—as the lowest point in its 2000-year history” but that the Papacy was never totally stripped of honor and respect, despite losing for a time its political independence” (p. 416-7).

When Dr. Carroll talks about the battles taking place in Spain, he seems to be interchanging the terms Muslims and Moors. The Moors were a separate group of people from Africa and I would assume that not all Moors were Muslims? Were Alfonso III and his descendants fighting against two separate groups or just one group united under Islam?

Susan Margaret wrote: "When Dr. Carroll talks about the battles taking place in Spain, he seems to be interchanging the terms Muslims and Moors. The Moors were a separate group of people from Africa and I would assume th..."

Wikipedia has a neat description who the Moors were and one that I agree with. Gibbon describes the lightning speed that the Mohammedans expanded from Arabia throughout North Africa and in about forty years reached the Iberian Peninsula. They quickly mixed in with the Berber natives. I was not concerned about the ethnic makeup of the invaders into Spain. It was Islam that counted.

Just a thought.

As our reading has progressed through the centuries, we often have commented in prior sections about how brutal it was and how preoccupied with war our history has been. While I don’t want to defend the brutality, I want to remark that we are viewing history as if through a time-lapse camera; progressing generations in a few pages. Unfortunately, wars were the primary events being recorded; just as they are today.

However, I enjoy taking a moment and basking in the warmth of the accomplishments of churchmen such as Augustine, Ambrose, Anthony, Clement and on and on. Despite the turmoil and upset around them, they left us real wealth. The people living in their age recognized their brilliance and preserved their sermons and writings for us. These people were surrounded by evil but found the time to savor the beautiful and pass it on.

Mike wrote: "Just a thought.

As our reading has progressed through the centuries, we often have commented in prior sections about how brutal it was and how preoccupied with war our history has been. While I do..."

Your thought is to the point. It’s easy to overlook the accomplishments of the churchmen and women and saints. Influenced perhaps by the headlines in contemporary media and its headlines on the disasters and horrors we also see those in the histories, and do not the quiet accomplishments of the men of God. There are the “standard” historians, Gibbon for one, who had no use for Christian men of God, or the saints, considered the latter vulgarizations, and St. Augustine’s "learning . . . too often borrowed and . . . [his] arguments are too often his own."

Galicius wrote: "Mike wrote: "Just a thought.

As our reading has progressed through the centuries, we often have commented in prior sections about how brutal it was and how preoccupied with war our history has bee..."

Good observation regarding Gibbon.

Mike wrote: "Just a thought.

As our reading has progressed through the centuries, we often have commented in prior sections about how brutal it was and how preoccupied with war our history has been. While I do..."

Mike, thanks for shining a positive light on some of the things that took place in the history that we are reading. Sometimes the doom and gloom is overwhelming.

Galicius, thanks for pointing me to wikipedia regarding the Moors. The info helped.