CanadianContent discussion

A place to discuss our chosen January group read.

Thanks to @MJ who volunteered to get the January suggestions ready for the poll. I thought everyone would be interested in the rationale she used and a bit more detail on the books:

Rationale:
>tried to make the choices reflective of "new beginnings, new resolutions etc. in general) rather than from an individual's resolution to reduce their TBR pile
>checked my library for availability - should be fairly reflective of most as live in a reasonably large but not huge city
>limited books to 1 recommendation per person and chose the one I thought best matched the first criteria
>tried to include those that got some favourable response from others in the thread
>tried to choose books that would fit another bingo square besides non-fiction
>tried to limit the choices - would have preferred 4 but came up with 5 - too many seems to dilute the voting - thinking is that if more choose the book (due to less choices) more will be participate in actual Monthly Group Discussion
>only selected Canadian books
>ignored all the lengthy books except the one that garnered a fair amount of discussion - have concerns about its length however given the reduced participation in the Big Book Challenge but thought members' input merited it being included.

Here's what she came up with:

This is Happy by Camilla Gibb - about a new baby and new beginning

Nocturne: On the Life and Death of My Brother by Helen Humphreys - about a new start after the loss of a very close brother

All Out: A Father and Son Confront the Hard Truths That Made Them Better Men by Kevin Newman - new beginnings - coming out, new more open and honest relationships

Up Ghost River: A Chief's Journey Through the Turbulent Waters of Native History by Edmund Metatawabin - new beginnings after healing from Residential School experience and new beginning for Canada after Truth and Reconciliation Report

The War That Ended Peace: The Road To 1914 by Margaret MacMillan - new beginnings - the first global war often called the War of Wars or The War.....do have concerns about the length and therefore participation but a number of members expressed interest.

one more day to vote!!!

Hi everyone - with 8 votes (of 23) we will be ringing in the new year by reading Up Ghost River: A Chief's Journey Through the Turbulent Waters of Native History.

Just wanted to mention how difficult it was to vote for one book for this monthly read - all of the suggestions were terrific and most are now on my possibility list.

For those considering or have decided to join the Canadian Content 2017 Bingo Up Ghost River: A Chief's Journey Through the Turbulent Waters of Native History will qualify for a number of Bingo Squares

B2 If you want to visit Ontario
B3 Canadian Memoir as Rainey mentioned in the Memoir Thread,
I2 Written by an Indigenous Author
N2 Non-Fiction as the January Monthly Read theme suggests
G5 If you live in Ontario, as the Book was Written in Ontario
O5 100 True Stories that make you Proud to be Canadian

It's not a Bingo Square this year but this book was short-listed for The Governor General's Non-Fiction Award in 2014 which speaks to the quality and importance of this book.

I don't think it's available in audio yet but who knows what's to come.

There are definitely a lot of 2017 Bingo Square choices for this book.....not to mention that it looks to be a good book (I think Louise used the term great.) Overall it sounds like this book should provide ample material for group discussion.

Hope as many members as possible (those who voted for any of the books in the poll and those didn't cast a vote) consider joining in our First Monthly Group Read and Discussion for 2017.

This looks like an absolutely fascinating read, and I wish I could join in. (FYI -- Book Outlet carries it for under $10).

I'm going to be completely consumed by the Canada Reads long and then short lists from now until March, so sadly, I won't be able to join in. If I already owned it, maybe I would have squeezed it in... :)

But I WILL be reading the thread and hope to get to it one day. I think it will be an important read for all Canadians (and anyone!). Great choice!

I really want to read this book, but I'm not sure if I'm going to get to it in January. I still haven't gotten to November's group read. Ack! haha...

It's a quick read but well worth it.

Sign me up!

I bought the book and will be chiming in.

I'm going to read it too -- I changed my mind. I'll have it on the go at the same time as Canada Reads books.

Am planning to join in the Monthly Group Discussion as well. Looking forward to it. My first one in this group.

❀ Susan - since I haven't joined in before and there may be other first joiners as well, would you mind posting something brief about any rules - even if they're loose or just clarify my question below.

I'm not sure but I sort of think I remember reading that until the 14th of the month - we are to use spoilers to hide info......or better yet don't write anything that would spoil the read for someone who hasn't finished the book yet. From the 15th of the month onward.....I "think" spoilers aren't necessary and anything goes.

Just want to make sure so no one's reading pleasure is spoiled.

Thanks again Susan for the organizing this Group Read and Challenge every month!!

Just received the e-book from the Library today. This is a subject I know next to nothing about so looking forward to it.

Thanks @MJ - yes, no spoilers until the 15th and then open discussion. :)

Thanks @ ❀ Susan. Looking forward to the read and discussion.

waiting for inter-library loan

I have a copy from the library and am looking forward to getting into it!

@ Magdelanye - hope your Inter Library Loan comes in in time for your to participate. Sometimes they're fast. Other times not so much. Fingers crossed.

@ Emmkay. I too just picked up my library copy although won't be getting to it immediately.

Hoping for a good read and discussion.

I picked my copy up an hour ago. But I also have a few days left on "The Best Kind of People" and "By Gaslight", so I'll be getting to those first.

I am about half way through, was able to get overdrive copy and am racing through it. Looking forward to the discussion later in the month.

@ Natasha - will be interested in reading what you think of The Best Kind of People. Picked it for an in-person book club. Hoping it will be an eye-opening read and brings up a lot of discussion points and group engagement.

@ Wanda and Natasha - looking forward to your participation.

I got a discount copy through bookoutlet.com but still need to get to their store to pick it up instead of paying shipping.

This was a quick read! I really enjoyed it. Anyone waiting on the Ontario Library Service Download Centre for the e-book - one down! :-)

Got my book today. Will start it this weekend.

got my notification today and will pick up tomorrow!

I recently finished Indian Horse. It pairs well with our monthly read. Also, I Am Not a Number author Jenny Kay Dupuis writes about her grandmother Irene's experiences for a school-age audience, and includes a discussion guide. I highly recommend both.

I had assumed this book wouldn't be available to me, but the New Orleans library system has 3 copies! I'm having one sent to my branch and then hopefully I can fit this in after I finish reading On the Farm.

@Susan, I haven't been able to bring myself to even look at this book on the pickton debacle, I knew too many of the women. the reviews seem to agree its very well done.

I'm sorry to hear that, Magdelanye.

@susan, had meant to add another sentence, but I guess I was feeling a bit shaky when I was writing, and the phone app is trigger happy. so now I'll ask, your opinion of the book. What has helped over the years is participating in the memorial march.
I have opened Danny Wolfe and cautiously begun. seem to remember that everyone loved this one.

It's very well done, Magdelanye. The missing women are discussed in detail and the anguish of their families is well communicated. There's more emphasis on the women than on Pickton, at least to the point in the book where I am. What I've found most shocking is how many people knew or suspected things about Pickton but either didn't report it or did report it and the police basically dismissed the information.

@Magdelanye - I am sorry to hear that you knew many of the women. I cannot imagine and am with you in not wanting to pick up this book.

I know no spoilers yet.... But my god, this book.... How could human beings do this to CHILDREN?? Or anyone?? And from those claiming to be religious??? Why does that make it feel even worse??

I knew it would be a hard book, Up Ghost River. Sickening. But it's hitting hard. I understand from reviews that it ends on a note of hope, but it's so hard getting through all of this first...

My husband said "why are you putting yourself through this?" And my immediate answer is that this needed to be written. It needs to be documented. And to give it the credence and respect that it deserves, it also needs to be read.

@ Allison - I hear you and empathize with how you're feeling while reading Up Ghost River. I think in your own words, in your last 2 sentences; you do an excellent job of summing up why you're continuing to read the book and why others should read it as well.

“Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.” James Baldwin

I read this quote recently in another book I was reading and think it is a good summary of Up Ghost River and why I think it is such a substantive and important book. It isn't the first book I have read on this topic but I think it is one of the best I've read to date on the subject of residential schools.

Metatawabin faced his own fears and shame (none of which were any of his fault - he was a child) and by facing them and then doing healing work (the native healing work so important to natives like himself who had spent time in residential schools and experienced white people try to annihilate this part of them), he changed and healed himself and was then able to go on to help others and become a strong advocate for change and native rights.

On another level, Metatawabin shared his experiences with a wide, mass audience. Putting his own story out there required making himself very vulnerable and demonstrated significant bravery. By sharing to a mass audience, Metatawabin gave us a gift. He is asking the "rest of the world", especially "the white world" to face what happened.....so that we can begin to reconcile and make positive changes.

I really hope many readers take advantage of what Metatawabin has written and the gift he has given us all. The book is easy to read, although not always comfortable. Unfortunately, avoiding books or facts, because they are difficult or deal with uncomfortable subject matter....means we are NOT facing facts, fears or what happened......therefore we CANNOT make changes and move forward. Retribution and healing cannot happen without first gaining the knowledge and then acknowledging what happened.

I posted this comment earlier today in the wrong thread. Oops.

I'm copying it here, where it should have been:

I finished this book last night.

It was a brave undertaking -- I can't imagine what it took Edmund Metatawabin to muster up what it took to chronicle it all.

And yet you know reading it that this book covers just the tip of the iceberg. Specifically, the long-term fall out of all the abuse at the hands of the government/religious leaders has just been skimmed over to give a taste. I appreciate why -- the book would be long and so dark, and maybe that's just not an effective way to get through to people. An author of a book like this can only dole out so much before the reader turns off, I think, or doesn't come at all. The book Night by Elie Wiesel comes to mind -- a teeny tiny book on an astronomical story of sadness.

Allison wrote: "I know no spoilers yet.... But my god, this book.... How could human beings do this to CHILDREN?? Or anyone?? And from those claiming to be religious??? Why does that make it feel even worse??

I ..."

OMG @Allison, I couldn't agree more! I have read a few books about the horrors of residential schools and have just put this book down for a little break until after dinner. I thought I knew how terrible these schools were but but had no idea that they used electric chairs and really can't fathom how any humans could treat children like that and how this can be part of Canadian history.

I recall being very angry when reading this book but there is light after all that darkness, not bright light, but some light.... Still, it is unfathomable that these events ever transpired and you have to ask yourself how people (people who claim to love god) could act so abominably towards children. Boggles the mind. I never placed the church in high regard before, but this really put it at an all time low for me. How murderers and abusers can hide behind the cloth like that is a tragedy. The church (and the government) need to be held accountable for their crimes yet they are not. Instead our prison system is filled with the victims of these crimes. Gah! I'm angry all over again.

First off, in case you don't appreciate my comments, I want to point out that I am as soft-hearted as anyone but what I liked about Up Ghost River was that the story of one school and one person's experience was told openly, sincerely and directly. Metatawabin faced the atrocities he had to endure, did his own personal healing using native traditions, found solutions and then started helping others and advocating on natives' behalf. His book ended by telling readers how to get involved to create solutions and reconciliation. It's his ending I think that is most important. He pointed out ways how "all Canadians" could get involved and help make things better.

I've read a number of books on the topic and agree the treatment at St. Anne's IRS is a public shame to all Canadians. However, I think that far more than the government and church are responsible and accountable, I think "all Canadians" need to take ownership of what happened. By saying the government and church are at fault - is like pointing fingers away and saying "not my fault" "I knew nothing" as if it all happened in a vacuum. That doesn't seem plausible.....and if we gave all our power away and didn't ask for any accountability....that's also our fault.

Think about the Nazis and their rounding up of Jews, non-whites, gays etc. and then starving, beating and killing all of them. It wasn't just Hitler, his army and some politicians at fault......there were many citizens and people who just stood by and let it happen, or had a concern and said nothing.

I don't see the Indian Residential School situation as much different, nor the 60's grabbing of native children from their parents and placing them with foster families - some good families but many who wanted additional hands for farming, housework or just extra income. People were aware. Canadians let it happen. If we didn't know because we gave away all our power and didn't ask for any accountability.....again that is our fault. We as Canadians are responsible for what happens or happened here in Canada.

Another caution and point to remember is that this book is about one school - the St. Anne's Residential School which was one of the worst in the country. Yes, there were other bad schools BUT THERE WERE ALSO residential schools where children were not treated badly but were clothed and fed well, given comfortable accommodations and personal attention and were given an education - also IRS's run by church people.

It's no different than child molestation - you don't tar every single coach, minister, priest, or child care worker as a molester because a minority % of these populations commits these crimes. Yes, these fields attract more people who are predisposed to wanting to be around children - but the greatest majority of people in these fields do not commit these crimes.

Getting the information and gaining knowledge is important for sure but finding people to blame isn't the issue. Facing the problem and then taking ownership and finding a solution is what it is about. I think that's what Metatawabin and others asking of all Canadians not just the government and the church.

Totally agree that the residential school impact has had a cause and effect on our prison populations. This book doesn't address it but the negative impact of residential schools lasts for mulitiple generations. If you can't love yourself, you can't love your partner or your kid, who in turn can't love themselves, their partner or their kid, and this continues on...unless they the cycle is broken. Compact the horrific residential school treatment with poverty, racism in Canada, both in people and in our institutions which are systemically racist. That is why there is an over-representation of both natives and POC in our jails and is another issue that needs to be addressed - which means funding and commitment and support from all Canadians to make it happen.

Done with my soapbox.....but it's really important to focus not on fault but on fixing as Metatawabin and the Truth and Reconciliation Report recommended!!!

Some thoughtful comments, there, @Louise and @MJ.

Personally, I feel so compelled to just DO SOMETHING, but although there are suggestions at the end of Up Ghost River: A Chief's Journey Through the Turbulent Waters of Native History, I never feel like anything is enough. I felt the same way at the end of Wab Kinew's book -- I'm sorry, so sorry, but what can I actually DO?

For instance, I cannot BELIEVE that many native reserves don't have clean drinking water. So recently I've said I just want to pay to have one put in somewhere. Just one well, completely financed by me. And my husband talked me out of it, saying the red tape, the logistics, blah blah blah... Not to mention our own personal costs of maintaining our lifestyle. We have kids who will need braces soon. So my question to my husband was "what's more important, a few kids with straight teeth, or communities drinking safe water?" And the conversation stunted. Of course we know the answer. But the easiest route is to just pay for our kids' teeth.

And THAT is where we are at fault, @MJ. In not taking action. My dad (who is an incredible and generous person) says that for charity to work, it needs to hurt. To fix the world, the rich (all of us) would have to give until our lifestyles change; we need to "change down" in order to have others "change up."

In other words, my kids would keep their crooked teeth so that our native population can drink their water. And none of us (?) are willing to make those lifestyle changes, in a wholesale way. So we don't change. And neither does the quality of water on reserves.

(More macro, we'd ask gov't to focus on native issues as a priority over national jobs, infrastructure, health-funding, daycare and other issues that keep our lifestyle where it is. This would cost us, but help Natives -- and my feeling is that nationally, we don't have that appetite, and any government would never be reelected with those priorities. Personally, I would support a Native-First agenda, considering the gap in lifestyle.)

However, @MJ, I don't think that it's true that generations have always known what was going on in their times -- us included. My mother wasn't Canadian in the 60s, but my father was, and I truly, honestly, don't think he was being made aware of residential schools. I certainly wasn't in the 80 and 90s. So I don't think that generation can be accused of inaction, as I don't think they really knew what was going on (as opposed to Nazi Germany, although sheesh, that's another ball of wax too). Who could have possibly guessed at the things Edmund Metatawabin laid out in his book? An electric chair for seven year olds?? It wouldn't cross my mind. Of course it wouldn't.

I had one native kid in my class growing up, Alex. He lived across the road from the school. All the kids liked him, and he was very much "in" the group of kids. A great athlete, a kind and funny person. Everyone liked him. But I can tell you this -- the teachers and principal were MUCH, MUCH harder on Alex than any other child. That's the truth. Even as children we recognized it. He got the strap, was set in the corner, was yelled at in a way that none of the rest of us were. I like to think that each generation gets better.... but then I'll probably end up paying for braces instead of a well, so is that really all that much better in the larger picture?

It was going to be pretty hard to keep discussion of this book from slipping into the political... :)

One more thought. @Louise expressed a disgust at the church and those who hide behind the cloth. I couldn't agree more. Anyone in a trust-position (fueled by faith/God!?) is even *worse,* in my view, for having committed these acts. Edmund Metatawabin's mother CHOSE to send her children to these people because she thought it would be better for them. She trusted these nuns and priests. They tricked her. Lied to her. That, to me, is worse than just being a "bad guy" who hurts people. These people took the extra step to convince others that they had the kids' best interests in mind. That is pure evil, in my opinion.

And note: the nuns and priests recognized their own bad behaviour. When the government representatives were on their way, the school was shined up, no one was beaten and food improved. They knew full well what they were doing, and hid it from everyone.

@ Allison - I hear you. I also feel pain and frustration and agree with almost everything you wrote.

I don't agree however that average Canadians are not responsible for what has happened and that it is all the fault of the church and government. We are collectively responsible. If we didn't know......then shame on us for not keeping our eyes and ears open and giving away our power without demanding accountability. Even the simple example of the kids in your school being aware of how hard the teachers were on your one native classmate. The kids knew. I'm guessing some or many parents heard about it. Am wondering what was done and if anyone approached the principal or school board as parents would do if a child bully was picking on another child. In this example there were clearly some racist teachers acting badly.....however not all teachers are like this. Richard Wagamese credits a white teacher in St. Catharines for giving him his first book to read that he'd ever seen featuring a successful leader who was not a white person.

That's also what I mean about the nuns, teachers, ministers, priests and child care workers. Some do bad things but many do not. In Auguste Merasty's memoir (who was a residential school survivor from St. Therese, Manitoba), he mentioned a few people who were abusive but was positive about some others. Same with Metatawabin - he named very few perpetrators as well. That doesn't let the others off the hook for doing nothing about it. And again there's no excuse for not knowing about it.

I think the same goes for all Canadians - even if it was our predecessors and they were unaware - we are all responsible. As a "so-called civilized" country of citizens, we're supposed to be protective of our most vulnerable and certainly all children, regardless of race, fit into this category.

I consider the who is responsible discussion (now that the Truth and Reconciliation Committee has completed its hearings and Report) to be a red herring and taking us away from the real point of why the hearings were held and from the discussion we need to be having going forward. What are Canadians collectively going to do to improve the situation as soon as possible?

I also want us to remember that not all church, government and Canadians have acted in an evil way. It was a minority. Nonetheless, 100% of all of us - church, government and ordinary Canadians are responsible and accountable for making things better. We're all in this together and we all need to be working together and committed to changing things for the better.

Mj wrote: "We're all in this together and we all need to be working together and committed to changing things for the better..."

Agreed. But how? The unanswerable question, when you grind it down.

The closest I can figure out is to take on a tangible project, not depending on a government or system mired in red tape to solve the problems. Not depend on the "we," because it's too unreliable. Take personal and direct action: DON'T give my white kids braces, but choose to spend the $ on as many safe drinking systems as that money could afford -- probably one on one reserve.

I wonder if Edmund Metatawabin would think that was a good use of my efforts. Maybe he would. Maybe I should ask him.

And then the truly bigger effort -- making the personal and family decision that my kids miss out on cosmetic advantage for the sake of a native community's health. Think I should do it? And who will join me?

It's a very large philosophical question, and a huge chasm from discussion to action.

There have been success stories of Syrian refugees that stem from private sponsorship. Groups of people working independently from government, people helping people. I'm going to a fundraiser at the end of the month to help sponsor another family in Kingston because of the successes made by to date with the refugees that have landed here.

This non-governmental model seems to work. @MJ, when you ask "what are we collectively going to do" I wonder if the answer isn't something along these lines: Just Do It. Don't wait for wider support. (Abandon braces for wells -- new slogan! :) )

I understand that I've brought up some uncomfortable questions here. Some unanswerable questions. I hope it won't dissuade people from engaging in the conversation -- and if it does, I apologize. This shouldn't be a conversation steered just by a small group of us.

@ Allison -

You have such a big and open heart! :-) I agree looking at the total picture can feel overwhelming and like a chasm.

However, I'm a big believer in baby steps. Doing little things do count and when enough people are on board - there is critical mass and the tide will turn.

I am constantly amazed by how many Canadians think that natives are getting a free ride and complain that natives get a free education, don't pay taxes, are free-loading drunks etc. etc. I think it's based on pure ignorance and our racist society. They don't seem to educate themselves, know about the constant flooding, the poverty, lack of housing and poor existing housing conditions on reserves, the many native women missing and unaccounted for and not being looked for, how we stole the natives' land and moved them in the first place without consulting them or considering their way of life and then reneged on treaties we signed etc.

I think a start is just talking to friends and neighbours about it....especially when you hear a negative comment. We can write letters to the editor, post on social media if you're into that, hold a get together with a meeting at your school or church to educate and have natives and non-natives mingle, write to natives, meet with them and get their ideas of what they want and think and introduce them to other friends and acquaintances of yours . Most communities have a native drop-in centre. It is perhaps a good place to start.

Also always be vigilant. Write to a paper or call in on a radio talk show and hold media accountable when they label or use negative stereotypes. The same hold true for hearing negative jokes or racist comments in conversations towards or about natives (and other POC).

I'm sure there are many people involved in Church who are horrified at what happened. Speaking with them about possibilities for group gatherings might be an idea. Similarly schools and educators can't be very proud of what happened and may be open to hosting events or making space available or have other ideas. Search out the web for existing groups or are active in asking for natives' rights and participate.

When more people "know" what's happening and have the opportunity to "meet and spend time" with native Canadians, I believe they will become more understanding and empathetic. I truly believe we are able and will make some headway and get more people on board and change things for the better.

“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
― Benjamin Franklin"

LOVE the quote!

Was chatting with my mom about this issue and the book (which I am not quite done). Our community had a residential school which was open until 1972 (hard to believe) and she didn't know anything about it (she would have been 20 in 1972).

It is now a cultural centre which is trying to be saved (has had some leaks) with a campaign called save the evidence. School kids get to have trips to see what was known as the "mush hole". My daughter had a tour of part of it (not allowed to go in the basement) in grade 6 but the residential part was just touched on and the kids did a craft and toured the museum also. This book as well as The Reason You Walk has opened up a lot of conversation at our house.

I have so many thoughts since reading the book, too many to share within the discussion. I also find that I am unable to articulate my true feelings as the emotions attached to my thoughts are not easily shared. The residential school that was outside of our community was open from 1895-1972 and demolished in 2000. We live near the site and I drive by it multiple times per day. There is not a day that goes by where I do not think about the school that stood there and the suffering that it represented, my eyes are drawn to the site and I vision it as it once was. I work in the mental health field and have counselled so many lives impacted by colonization for Indigenous Canadians. I learn with every contact made, walking alongside them on their healing path. I talk less and listen more. It is what I can do, what we all can do. Listen, learn, respect and advocate for change.

Thanks Wanda. Your sharing was beautiful. Your choice of words Listen, learn, respect and advocate for change. So succinct and so wise.