SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

So what did everyone else think of this totally terrifying spider book?

Spiders! Spiders everywhere! I really liked this book, precisely because of the spiders. Otherwise it would have been a fairly boring arkship story.

That's a conundrum. I could have skipped the phobic freakout but had a boring story.

I liked it a lot. There were a handful of things I didn't like:

1. Avrana Kern at the beginning of the book is too ridiculous of a character to believe.

2. The virus is not even remotely plausible, at least from my layman's understanding of genetics.

3. The way that computer networks and computer viruses work in this book is ridiculous.

4. The discussion of the Prisoner's Dilemma at the end of the end of the book really annoyed me. The Prisoner's Dilemma really doesn't apply in this scenario. Cooperation is probably the "rational" choice.

Things I liked:

1. Spiders.

To me the most appealing feature is not even about them being spiders that makes it interesting. It's that we get to see the creation of a Civilization from scratch (and the devolution of another) that makes it compelling. If it had been an unknown alien species I think it might also have been effective but by using spiders we have a mental and visual hook to hang our conception of the protagonists on.

After all of the hype, I was somewhat disappointed and it ended up being a not quite 4 star read for me. I shared many of the concerns that David did.

The nanovirus concept, as the core of Kern’s uplift program (which reminded me of that old Star Trek movie with the Genesis Project planet where Spock is sent), was initially pretty cool. It quickly began to get farfetched and quite improbable as it created the genetic way to pass on knowledge, and ultimately as it became the facilitator of social harmony between the races (particularly nutty considering it was created by Kern, the I-hate-everyone scientist).

I may be the only one here, but I wasn’t very enamored with the whole spider uplift thing. Tchaikovsky’s world-building around the spiders and ants was indeed creative and compelling, but the social messages he built in (ants as slaves, males as sub-class citizens fighting for their rights, etc) seemed pretty heavy handed. The spider chapters also dragged at times, too much political hoo-hah and posturing.

Tchaikovsky included and blended a whole lot of old Sci-Fi concepts into this story. We have genetic uplift and planetary terraforming. We see the well-trodden exploration of the problems with uploading a human mind into a computer. We have an arkship holding a rag-tag group of the last human survivors searching for a new home. There is the old worn theme of post-apocalyptic loss of knowledge and technology that must get rediscovered. We have the effects of stasis capsules, aging and time with their Rumpelstiltskin effect. We have the old scenario of a technologically less advanced culture worshiping a more advanced one. The list goes on. It is almost like Tchaikovsky felt compelled to cram everything into this book.

Thoroughly enjoyed the book and loved the way the narrative flowed. The most intriguing and thought provoking thing for me was the subtle perspective on religion. That made me think a bit about the role of religion throughout the ages and into the future.....

I haven't finished, but I think it is really good so far.

I. Loved. It. Hugo winner for sure!

This was definitely one of the best books I have read in the past several years with the best parts being the spider uplift chapters. The basis of a religion based on a signal from the sky reminded me of Dragon's Egg which is still a favorite from way back. I was also intrigued by the hints he left for writing more in this universe which I hope he does (comments on twitter hold out hope for this).

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I. Loved. It. Hugo winner for sure!"

Alas, it was published in 2015, so it already missed its chance for a Hugo nomination.

Some time ago, when I was fulfiling a goal I set for myself to undertake continuing education studies at least once a year (only free stuff, preferably from my couch and my local library), I started watching The Western Tradition series on PBS TV. It is apparently now available online.

http://www.openculture.com/2007/12/th...

The reason I am inserting it here is 'Children of Time' instantly reminded me of it (as opposed to that niggling memory on the tip on one's tongue). The civilization uplift of the spiders tracks the outline of the history of Western Civilization perfectly, per the above series.

Another personally strange coincidence for me, is in watching this PBS series, I finally put away any doubts about atheism. As I took other classes, such as Comparative Religions, I had already become an agnostic, but after seeing 'The Western Tradition', I began courses about the history of religions. But it was seeing the video progression of Western Civilization, which, as I said, mirrors to a degree, taking into account spider specific cultural differences, the progression of history which caused me to become an atheist.

I had a fun little frisson at the coincidences.

: )

Unbenownst to me until now, I think I completely plagerized Edwin's take on the book. Very creative and enjoyable but I would have liked to see spider society have a few different types of struggles while it evolved.

One thing I truly enjoyed was that when the perspective changed from human to arachnid, I was instantly sunk into and invested in that society. My allegience switched frequently although at the end I was happy the spiders got to call the shots.

Just finished this, after near-constant reading and staying up way too late every night. What a compelling tale. I really enjoyed this perspective on human nature.

For the author to create a race of sentient spiders was a majestic feat of imagination. To imagine what their technology might look like, what their intelligence might look like, was stunning. Much more interesting and relatable than I would have expected.

Overall a bleak look at human nature. Destructive to the point of utter self-destruction. Unable to find a peaceful resolution with another sentient race without being crushed and dominated first.

A near perfect ending to this story. The only way the humans were going to find a way to exist on that planet in symbiosis with an established ecosystem was by being shown how, by being given a place. The only place they would have made for themselves would have caused rampant destruction and chaos and harm to that world. They would have made the world burn, just to get off the ship.

The spiders were better at living up to the philosophies we humans gave them the ability to discover as we also discovered.

Just saw this on twitter. Looking forward to the sequel...

Adrian Tchaikovsky
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@aptshadow
7h7 hours ago
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Now75% into Children of Time sequel having gone back last night to add an extra section in. On track to finish 1st draft by end Feb I think.

Loved this book.
Spider astronauts!
And I’m always a sucker for a good ark-ship-traversing-the-lonely-depths-of-space story.
Also a strange but oddly touching love story.
Did I mention the spider astronauts?

Ruth wrote: "Loved this book.
Spider astronauts!
And I’m always a sucker for a good ark-ship-traversing-the-lonely-depths-of-space story.
Also a strange but oddly touching love story.
Did I mention the spider a..."

My favorite thing EVER - spider astronauts....

Yay!!! Very psyched to hear about the Children of Time sequeI!!

Reopening this thread! What did you think?

Loved it. Like following a BBC Natural History documentary. The author's expertise and interest in both Zoology and Psychology shows well, all throughout the story.

The explorations of the societal norms of each faction and the re-examination of them by the characters themselves was fascinating.

(I forget why I have highlighted the line "balls to your cultural specificity!" Probably just for the laughs - the chemistry and the banter between the characters got quite amusing as well).

Would be curious to see how well a reader would pick up on most of the characters being spiders/ants, if mentions of things such as legs, laying eggs or web spinning were concealed.

At times, half expected the grand 'space venture' to turn out taking place in a terrarium or such somewhere, Lt. Holsten's hand suddenly appearing from the skies above or some such. As it is, the ending (too) was wholly pleasing. And quite open for sequels, should the author ever feel like it. Though this alone stands proud.

This was definitely for me! I loved spiders ever since a was a small kid. So no wonder, that I adored the book and could not name another SF-novel I loved as much as this one.

How Tchaikovsky took on the social and physiological aspects of nowaday spiders and evolved them felt absolutely believable. Of course they would develop into a male-suppressing society, of course they would develop a form of communication that involves pedipalps and threads, of course they would enslave insects. This was so fascinating and so satisfactory to read, I loved every minute of the spider chapters.

Not to mention, that so far I read way too few SF stories, that weren't human-centered. I want my horizon broadened and my imagination kicked in the head - both wonderfully delivered with this book.

My only "complaint" would be the epilogue, which felt unnecessary to me. But that's my pet peeve with many books: I just love abrupt endings.

I was completely enthralled from the get go in the evolution of the spiders. It's the most realistic depiction of how a society of a species suddenly made intelligent would evolve, from infrastructure to religion was so completely believable for this exact species of animal. It didn't feel like they evolved like humans but followed a worldview that made sense to a spider. I was fascinated by how they stored and passed on knowledge alone. And even more so, where the humans flounder and blunder around like idiots, the spiders came through as truly evolved and truly better than us. It's nothing but genius.

Gabi wrote: "Not to mention, that so far I read way too few SF stories, that weren't human-centered. I want my horizon broadened and my imagination kicked in the head - both wonderfully delivered with this book."

100% and that's the kind of SF I adore, too (now go read Up the Walls of the World!).

Gabi wrote: "My only "complaint" would be the epilogue, which felt unnecessary to me. But that's my pet peeve with many books: I just love abrupt endings."

Again, agree. In fact I don't really remember the epilogue, until it was mentioned! But having read two of Tchaikovsky's other SF works I recognize that he has a somewhat sentimental style. Perhaps it's his worldview that shines through, perhaps he's full of kittens and rainbows on the inside. And to be honest, with the amount of depressing, pessimistic futures we're presented with in SF I find myself appreciating his focus on the uplifting endings.

Dawn wrote: "And even more so, where the humans flounder and blunder around like idiots, the spiders came through as truly evolved and truly better than us. It's nothing but genius."

Yes, Yes, and … YES!

Dawn wrote: "100% and that's the kind of SF I adore, too (now go read Up the Walls of the World!).
"

:) I already bought the book!

Read it a while back and it’s a 5 star read for me. I actually teared up due to a spiders heroism. Enough said.

I loved it. I purposefully didn't read too much about this book before I read it, to avoid spoilers, so I didn't know about the spiders. Luckily, I like spiders, so it didn't freak me out. Instead I was happily surprised by the fascinating world and culture created by Tchaikovsky. I also like far-future SF, and I liked how he had developed the human characters as they cycled through stasis/awake over vast stretches of time. As soon as I finished this book, I put it back on my mental TBR, because I know I want to read it again!

@Rachel Me too, I was deeply moved.

Did someone mention a sequel???

I just finished this, and it was so lovely! I kept wanting a buddy read thread so I could chat about my thoughts as I went.

Boy, does it get grim in Part 5. I was almost afraid to finish because I had so little idea where the story was going and was worried it would end on a "profound but depressing" note. I'm sure plenty of folks saw the resolution at the end coming, but I certainly didn't so it was such a pleasant surprise to wrap up such a fun book.

Yes it’s a 5-star read for me as well. The sequel, CHILDREN OF RUIN, is out in February 2019!

Ariana wrote: "I just finished this, and it was so lovely! I kept wanting a buddy read thread so I could chat about my thoughts as I went.

Boy, does it get grim in Part 5. I was almost afraid to finish because ..."

Oh, couldn't this re-read have been used as a BR? I would have loved to talk about it, since it was one of the best books I have ever read.

Yes, You're describing my feeling for the end. I felt that each ending could have been possible. The way the plot was built up to that point, everything in the range of outcomes was equally believable. That was genius of Tchaikovsky and made me excited till the end.

MadProfessah wrote: "Yes it’s a 5-star read for me as well. The sequel, CHILDREN OF RUIN, is out in February 2019!"

It says May on amazon (I pre-ordered it)

Just finished. It was always fascinating in its ideas. I just wanted to be swept up more emotionally at times. And having two human beings turn into raging egomaniacs with god complexes felt a bit repetitive to me.

I was very happy that the spiders wound up evolving past us lowly humans in so many ways, and that they found a way past mutually assured destruction.

I’m definitely glad I read it, all in all.

Also just finished. I found the chapters that detailed the planetary Spider evolution to drag, but things really picked up in the final 20% once they entered space to confront Kern directly. Fabian's sacrifice was the emotional turning point.

The humans were not very likable, but they did hold my interest.

Did anyone root for the ants??

@MadProfessah, Nope :)

During the build-up to the conflict between the humans and the spiders, the poignant self-sacrifice by the spider personality known as Fabian brought the spiders into my sympathy. My identification with the spiders grew as they defended their home world against genocide by the human invaders. At the same time, the humans are faced with the reality that this world is the last chance for the survival of humanity. My sympathy for the humans was reduced by the imperious and violent characters, leaving me on the knife-edge of who to root for. Well done.

That’s exactly it - he did such a great job ‘humanizing’ lol both sides, so unusual to find that

I enjoyed this book and especially the intertextuality (those chapter titles!) and the way it contrasted to very different, but in many respects also very similar species. The parallels and differences were fun to trace.

At the same time, the parallels were one of my biggest quibbles. I found following the development of the spider society fascinating but

1) he could have tightened that up a bit. Things started to drag a little in the second half of the book.

2) some parallels felt a little too neat. A few times he seems to have gone 'Oh, so this is what happened at this stage in human society, so I'll need an equivalent in the spider society.' (The plague is one example.) And that just felt too obviously constructed for me.

Parts of the book were deliciously unsettling - for example thinking about the unthinkable expanse of time that passes between Holsten's time awake. But at the same time, I didn't quite connect emotionally with the human characters.

Still thinking about the ending. I liked this bit: "Life is not perfect, individuals will always be flawed, but empathy - the sheer inability to see those around them as anything other than people too - conquers all, in the end."
There's an interesting circularity to humanity being altered by their own invention, but it's also....slightly creepy?

And who knows what'll happen with that new mission.
Oooh and: what about that civilization in the ocean?? I kinda do want to know more about that.

@MadProfessah: I did feel conflicted about the ants and was wondering if there'd be an uprising at some point...

I loved this book! One of my favorite reads this year! 🕷

I finished it today, and that was certainly an interesting book. In honesty, I didn't see the ending with the spiders spreading the nanovirus to the humans coming at all - but boy am I glad that it happened, because

Anthony wrote: "I was very happy that the spiders wound up evolving past us lowly humans in so many ways, and that they found a way past mutually assured destruction."

of exactly this.

I do wish we'd been given a bit more of a look into what this spider/human society would be like. It'd be so fascinating, I think. How do they integrate? Is the virus effective with all of the humans on the ship, or are there some that are resistant? What about in the spider society, are there spiders that reject the integration of the people - these people that knocked their Messenger from the sky and killed many of their kind? I have so many questions.

Did anyone have a favourite spider chapter? Or a human chapter? I especially enjoyed the points where the spider chapters expanded from just Portia's POV to both Bianca's and Fabian's.

@Rose: my fav was the "God has apologized" chapter. This tore me apart.

@Gabi Same!! ;______;

Gabi wrote: "@Rose: my fav was the "God has apologized" chapter. This tore me apart."

Oh yes!! That chapter was so good - the way it was described how Kern had overwritten those original human memories to make way for new data was kinda heartbreaking.

"All she has is a patchwork of conjecture, and memories of times when she once remembered the things she can no longer recall first-hand."

Those spider chapters were honestly kinda dispassionate overall, probably to help convey the alien nature of their way of thinking, but this chapter just stood out so much

Gabi wrote: "@Rose: my fav was the "God has apologized" chapter. This tore me apart."

That chapter was brilliant!
But also creepy. The first time you realize that "Kern" is actually the AI and no longer the human gave me goosebumps.

I also liked the chapters on the grey planet when Holsten reckons with the past and human nature. And I wish the emotional implications between him and Lain had been explored more.
(I also would have loved a chapter or two from Lain's perspective.)

@Rose: I think he's writing a sequel so some of your questions (which I share) may be answered.

I loved a chapter before "God Has Apologized": "Epiphany," the one where Avrana Kern comes to accept the spiders as her children. I thought that was some brilliant writing because Kern was unsympathetic from the start. For her to make this momentous change redeems her character. She still had her old flaws, so it's good that the spiders didn't take most of her advice on how to confront the humans.

MadProfessah, I did like fact that the ants became important parts of spider civilization. The sexism theme for the spiders could have been complemented with a slavery theme for their relationship with the ants. I was surprised that Tchaikovsky didn't go there. Maybe in the sequel. If I had written this story, I might have used ants or bees as the sentient land species because those are much more social than spiders. Ants in the real world are pretty amazing in what they do: division of labor, architecture, gardens, war, slavery, living bridges and rafts, etc.

Chris wrote: "I loved a chapter before "God Has Apologized": "Epiphany," the one where Avrana Kern comes to accept the spiders as her children. I thought that was some brilliant writing because Kern was unsympat..."

But is that really Kern? My understanding is that it's the AI ("Eliza") who thinks of herself as Kern, but isn't the "real" Kern. Though I guess just leads us to about a thousand other questions.... Somehow, the Kern/Eliza hybrid is almost the most interesting character in this book. And the most unsettling.

As far as I remember, Kern and Eliza are in constant inner struggle for dominance, aren't they? I can't remember who "wins" by the end, or if they finally merge...

It's Kern. At some point after her epiphany, the spiders reach the satellite and relocate her. After the Gilgamesh destroys the satellite, Kern says that they destroyed whatever was left of Eliza.

Chris wrote: "It's Kern. At some point after her epiphany, the spiders reach the satellite and relocate her. After the Gilgamesh destroys the satellite, Kern says that they destroyed whatever was left of Eliza."

Is it?
I'd read this part as indicating that the AI had started to think of itself as "Kern", while the "real" Kern was still left in suspension:

"She presses further, seeking that other large focus of calculation she shares this pod with. They are legion, in there, but there are two poles to the Brin 2's sentry Pod, and she reaches for the other carefully.
Eliza, I need your assistance. Eliza, this is Avrana.
She touches the stream of that other mind, and is momentarily immersed in the tumbling river of thought constantly flowing there: my monkey where are my monkey cannot help me now I'm cold so cold and Eliza never comes to see I can't see can't feel can't act I want to die I want to die I want to die ... The thoughts flowing, helpless and unconstrained, out of that broken mind as though it is trying to pour itself empty, and yet there is always more. Avrana recoils and, for a terrible, frozen moment knows that if what she has touched is an organic mind, then I must be ... but she has, after all, an almost infinite capacity to overlook, and that moment of self-reflection is gone, and along with it any threat of revelation."

And when the Gilgamesh first encounters the pod and they move from talking to Eliza to Kern, there's also this kind of stream-of-consciousness speech going on. So I really think the two of them "switched" places. Or rather, the AI continued to evolve until it thought of itself as Kern, which is kind of foreshadowed in the very beginning.
And the spiders wouldn't necessarily know the difference, right? Whatever they've relocated seems to be the computer core of the satellite, and not whatever would have been left of the human Kern.

EDIT: Also, working "they are legion" in there is just plain brilliant, if you ask me. Especially in this passage.