King's Dark Tidings discussion

So here is a question I have regarding the pivotal scene where Rezkin learns Rule 1 and Rule 2 (Also, I "read" these books via audible, so spelling of the character names may be off)

(Stop if you haven’t read both books).




• It is presumed that Caydean (sp?) gave the order for the Masters to set up the scenario where Rezkin killed 14 of the 15 strikers.

• We know Caydean did order the 7 strikers to kill / capture Rezkin at the end of the tournament in book 2.
So here is my question, what was Caydean thinking in book 2? If 15 strikers failed, how in the world did he think 7 would succeed?
1. Caydean is either unaware that the original attack did not succeed – very unlikely if he gave the order.

2. Caydean is unaware that Dark Tidings is Rezkin – seems implausible, given the sheer dominance of Dark Tidings performances in the matches. Even if he didn’t know for certain, he must have at least suspected.

3. Caydean did not give the initial order – This seems to be the most plausible theory I have. It then begs the question who gave the order, which opens a world of intriguing possibilities. It also suggests that Caydean may be unaware of the existence of Rezkin – at least in the sense of his training and the authority bestowed on him by his father.

4. Caydean gave both orders, but expected / wanted the second to fail – seems a waste, but KK’s seems to be painting Caydean as a Nero type ruler, so not out of the realm of possibilities.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure of Caydean's involvement in Rez's training--or if he knew about it. I think it's possible he's behind some of the aspects. Maybe he and Bordran were playing a tricky game with each other--keeping things from each other, trying to influence things their own way as much as they could? It's really hard to say...

I do see that it would suit Caydean very well if he got control over a super assassin loyal to only him... so Rules 1 and 2, the ungarbled version, would certainly be his doing--if he was aware of Rez.

If Caydean did know and was responsible for the order to kill the strikers (that order might have originated from one of the Masters, and the Masters might have foreign interests pulling strings, though... or personal motivations), then, yes, it seems odd to send more strikers after Rez at the tournament.

However--it is possible that Caydean was unprepared for Rez being there. Caydean's main plan was to gather up nobles and foreigners. IF Caydean knew about Rez, he'd probably last heard of him disappearing from the fort and somehow going rogue since he didn't seek out his King, as per the Rules. He might have only heard of Rez at last moment and worked with the strikers he had at hand...

Or it's possible he might not have connected Rez and the mysterious tournament entrant... or not connected him soon enough to send enough people. Perhaps he didn't have more strikers in the area to send? Or perhaps he figures if the strikers fail, he can send more later, with better planning?

There could indeed be other things at play that we know nothing about. Like foreign powers/agents. Maybe Caydean is purely crazy and therefore not really making good decisions. Maybe he's got plans we don't know about.

I really don't think I have enough knowledge to even do some decent speculating. We haven't even met Caydean and really don't know anything about him aside from the fact that his policies seem to be upsetting the kingdom-- that he seems to be building up for war... but with whom? And why? Maybe there's a serious threat from abroad that no one knows about, but will reveal reason behind his seeming madness? Or maybe not...

Rumors have him being horrible and killing his father... but it's not proved. We know that some strikers are no longer loyal, but others still are...

I do rather think he's a bad-guy... but I don't know if he's insane or if there's some plan behind what he does...

While we haven't met Caydean, and as the book is predominantly from Rezkin's point of view, we haven't been given a very large world view. However, we do know some things that lend credence to the portrait of Caydean that has been painted:

1. The 2 strikers defecting at the tournament to Rez's side are confirmation of much of what Kai has said about Caydean.
2. The summation of events after they escape - institution of slavery, holding of hostages, forced conscription of male children, General Markum's defection who we have seen as an honorable man despite his feelings towards Rez - all confirm the evil tyrant image.


I still believe that even if he had only 7 strikers (which I am not sure is the case, since I think I recall Shezar saying more were on the way, but maybe he meant regular soldiers, I will have to read it again), Caydean could have augmented those strikers with regular soldiers. In fact that would have been a better use of his man power to save his cadre of elite soldiers, he only has 150 of them after all (well no more than 142 at the end of book 2). Anyway, the more I ponder it, the more likely it seems that Caydean did not give the first order. I don't believe he even knows of Rezkin's existence.

The only thing that gives me pause, is that Adona (sp?) made that comment of "long live the king, may he dwell forever in the darkness he has freed" or something along those lines as he dies, which suggests Caydean was responsible for the order. Also, when Rez confronts Farson, it is obvious Farson very much believes Caydean gave the order and holds him responsible for the death of his 14 brothers in arms. He also sees Rez as a mere puppet for Caydean so he knows that rules 1 and 2 were supposed to tie Rez to Caydean.

Knowing what we know, Bordran is the one responsible for setting up Rez's training (shaylin blades and Kai's testimony that Bordran was going to assign Kai on one of the missions where strikers "died' only to be "resurrected" in the training facility for Rez are confirmation of this). Furthermore, Kai does say that Caydean killed Bordran (although he didn't actually witness the event, so that is still only a possibility). Either way, the death was unexpected and it is likely Bordran never told Caydean of Rez and the training he was undergoing.

Which begs the question...who did give the order. Is it a character we already know (Thresson perhaps? Pretending to be weak, but all the while scheming behind the scenes?) or is it someone we have yet to learn about.

I admit to being intrigued by the possibility that there is some nefarious plot external to Ashai that is driving Caydean's buildup of the army and extreme isolationist policies. It would seem unusual though for Rez to not have some knowledge of this though given his resources (his thieves guilds, especially given his guidance in book 1 and his takeover of the assassin's guild would provide an excellent intelligence network), but it is not out of the realm of possibility.

Part of me is happy KK is taking his time to do the book justice, but an equally large part of me is unhappy at having to wait for the third installment.

Oh, those are great points!

Yes, it's true, that Kai and the other strikers who defected to Rez would have inside knowledge of Caydean and his machinations. And lets also say that having the nobles split, including Markham, could be politics, but also we know that some of the nobles are decent types and seem against Caydean... So yes, it all points to Caydean being a bad/mad dude and ruining the kingdom. As does Caydean's plans for slavery, etc., at the end of the tournament...

I'm not sure it would help if the soldiers were to aid the strikers in capturing or killing Rez, but sheer number could have done something. But they are less quick and easy to manage. There was pretty much an army sent after them...

I think whomever was one the spot making decisions either had instructions to make sure the army was also corralling the foreigners and nobles at the tournament for the whole slave, hostage, conscription thing... and also having to deal with Dark Tidings. And maybe no one had good intell on DT... might not know he was Rez. People might not be sure of Rez's capabilities, either... (It might not have been obvious that Rez had killed all the strikers at the fort. Or that info might not have been passed on to those calling the shots. And Caydean would need to have people on the ground doing some of that, since he's not there, even with decent communications.)

I'm not sure how much Caydean knows about Rez. That whole business is a big murky ball of mystery! But it does seem that Bordran had to know something about it because of the swords and striker Kai (I'm not sure... but I thought there was something about Kai's assignment... was it just chance that he couldn't do it, or did Bordran save Kai from doing it?)--but we don't know much more than that.

If Bordran had set up the whole training of Rez as a backup to help him or the kingdom and save it from Caydean, then all the secrecy was specifically to keep Caydean from knowing...
(if the Masters, or maybe just Pieder?, still gave him Rules 1 and 2, then they might have been subverted by Caydean or someone pro-Caydean, or maybe they were just following the old orders from Bordran, which he hadn't had time to change before he was killed--but that seems to be a horrible oversight if so--so it seems as if Caydean must have found out somehow...)

It's only the build up of the army and the rounding up of foreigners that makes me think there might be some outside threat... but it's possible the army was there to be used against renegade nobles and to seize greater power for Caydean domestically... But the foreign Assassins makes me think there's got to be something going on with other countries. Not sure what.

True, you'd think there would be rumors of any foreign threats that the Guilds might know. Rez wanted the Guilds to have a network of information, after all... But maybe they and Rez are just looking domestically for info? It's not as if the Guild is that good at gathering info yet. Rez had only just started to get them working at that, after all. And maybe there aren't any big hints of a threat. Maybe it's something all in Caydean's fevered imagination? Maybe it's just a well-kept secret that Caydean just suspects? Or maybe there is nothing to do with outside agents at all...

I'm pretty sure the wait for Book 3 won't be that much longer. It seemed that KK was close, but just knew it wasn't going to be done in 2016.

(And I have a lot of other books I need to catch up on-- so I have plenty to keep me busy. This discussion group helps pass the time well, too.)

Bordran changed his mind about Kai going on one of these "missions" since Kai was married with a child on the way (that is gonna be an interesting back story!)

Thanks, Rick! Yeah, that was interesting--that Bordran kept Kai from that mission (where he would disappear to the secret fort and never be heard from again!).

So... Bordran knew something about what went on at the fort. It's likely he approved of it, since he was still king and Caydean might have been intriguing, but he wouldn't have that kind of power. And... the strikers are all under the command of the king, right?

But we all suspected Bordran's involvement because of the swords... so not much revealed there.

So many interesting back stories, I agree. That makes this series very fun to think about...

What if the masters were loyal to Bordran, and after he died, did their best to hide Rezkin. If Caydean was coming close to finding Rezkin, they might have been worried that Caydean might order the strikers attack Rezkin. By giving him all his weapons and surprise, they maximized his chances to survive a battle with them (instead of them like ambushing him in his sleep). If they disagreed on the order being given, or maybe Peider liked Caydean more that Bordran, which explains him trying to give Rezkin the correct last rules and fighting Jaiardun. Peider may have seen it as a betrayal of the king.


ALL A THEORY

I do think that Peider, despite seeming to be the slightly less harsh of the two Masters during training, must have been at least enough in favor of Caydean to pass on the first 2 Rules... Or at least, he MEANT to do that. Maybe his subconscious tricked up his dying brain, though?

It also seems as if Caydean was kept in the dark... although he seems to have some idea given that at the end of book 2 there were strikers sent to try and deal with Rez... Although I'm not sure what they thought they could do. Capture him alive? Not likely. If they wanted him dead, though, you'd think they'd do it with more stealth... (to me, it seemed like they didn't really know who Rez was... )

The order to kill the strikers... Seemed more to me that someone didn't want word getting out... It could be pro-Caydean... so that Caydean has his dark assassin with no ties to anyone (like strikers who might have other ideas). Or it could be anti-Caydean... so that Caydean won't hear from any loyal strikers and Rez could more easily move against Caydean...

Something definitely got messed up either way with the two Masters killing each other and Peider messing up the Rules. --It still seems odd that the 2 rules were left until the end... I wonder who decided THAT was a good idea? I guess Bordran might have already worried he wouldn't survive Caydean, so he held off on that. (But who would have have Rez be loyal to? Maybe that was the problem.) (Oh, and there was that thing about Rez finishing his training earlier than expected--so that might have thrown off someone's plans...)

I think Caydean knows of Rez after he killed Bordran...at least a few years after. Otherwise I think Caydean orders Rez's death right after Bordran is killed. I think we can establish that Rez is around 16 when Bordran dies. Further however, why would an order be given to the strikers to kill Rez, when everyone knows they more than likely wouldn't be able to kill him. Would Bordran have told Peider/Jaiardun to have Rez kill the stirkers when his training was complete?...and the only reason I would assume that is to eliminate any knowledge of this facility to a 'new' king? I just can't see that Bordran would have strikers killed who helped train his 'son'...assuming Rez is Bordran's son of course.

The General kept alluding to someone whom he feared who he was going to try and contact.
I believe he may have been the person pulling the strings and maybe is the strikers 'speaker' as well?
This person could have been the person responsible for overseeing the training and was meant to be Rezkins original handler/master that Farson referred to.

When Caydean found out about him he ordered the speaker to have him killed. The speaker who was not present at the fortress may not have realized Rezkins true talent when he ordered the scenario concocted.

Oh-- and remember that Rez was ahead of schedule in his training by a few years, I think! So it could be that he wasn't expected to survive the strikers all trying to kill him.

Also--if Caydean gave the order--maybe he wasn't totally up on the project and just wanted to get rid of Rez. However... If the first Rules had been delivered to Rez correctly-- Rez would have gone to the King (Caydean) and served him! SO... maybe the order was given by someone trying to make sure Rez would NOT live and serve Caydean...!

I have been pretty vocal on the idea that Caydean did not give the order. He wouldn't use 15 strikers at the fort and only 7 at the tournament.

I don't think Caydean even knows of Rez's existence. If you recall the meeting between Rez and Farson near the end of book 2, Farson mentions Rez's "master". We have been led to believe that Rez was meant to serve Caydean (rule 1 as it was intended), but he never says Caydean is his master. Indeed during that conversation it becomes apparent that Farson is talking about 2 separate people...Caydean and Rez's master

Ooooh... I'm not sure I got that... Who do you think Rez's master is (or was meant to be)???

April, that is the great mystery...the greatest for me. I think some may find Rez's origins, or the secret of his powers as being a greater mystery, but for me it has always been who is pulling the strings.

I don't think we have met in the books who was intended to be Rez's masters. I think it was whoever gave the order. Caydean is the first that comes to mind, but I think we have put enough holes in that idea to cast some serious doubt that Caydean gave the kill order.

Some have suggested Thressin. He disappeared about the same time so that make some sense. By all accounts he is described as a good person, albeit a weak one. KK hasn't shown in his writings to be duplicitous, but if he wanted to dupe us, that would be the way. So Thressin being the master has some merit.

Personally though I think the Master's at the fort were part of some order / sect / group. And the leader of that group is the "master" Farson refers and is also the one that gave the order.

KK has mentioned there are many more books in store for us, and if that is to be the case, we have to get a deeper world and deeper intrigues and plots. And most importantly, Rez has to be challenged. Caydean won't pose too big an obstacle, so there must be a powerful force/enemy forthcoming.