History in Vogue discussion

Discussion for series one of ITV - Masterpiece Victoria





But first, some lovely costume shots...

And a few more...






The Coronation Gown





The Wedding Dress

I am looking forward to watching this.

It looks fabulous! I can't wait. I'm home alone with a dog for company so I get to watch it with everyone else for a change. I'll make sure to point Dash out to Rupee but I think she'll be sound asleep by then.

So far, I prefer The Young Victoria. It doesn't have any cliched fictional plot lines. This one is well-acted, I loved Jenna Coleman in Death Comes to Pemberley, and the actors look like their real life counterparts. The costumes are pretty but it didn't hold my interest. It didn't hold Rupee's interest either. Not enough Dash and the real life dog barking next door isn't all that exciting either. She says "It's bedtime humans-let's go to sleep!" so I shall be back tomorrow probably after a rewatch.

I am SUPER excited about the return of Mercy Street. I read parts of Mary's diaries and it sounds like the show is pretty much almost 100% fictional but it's great.

Episode One


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I'm going to pop the recap photos for each in a spoiler tag, just because there's about 12-15 an episode. It's long...

I love the recap photos. I feel like this needs to be marketing to teens : "You think no one understands you? You think your parents are the enemy? Try being a teenage queen!" I almost finished watching the first half of the show again but of course my parents came home, the dog was barking and I couldn't hear anything so I shut it off. I

I didn't get home until late Sunday night, so I just watched this morning at 4:00. I like the show overall. I didn't like Poldark until about halfway through the first season, so I'm definitely willing to give it a few more episodes. At this point I do like The Young Victoria better, but I also like that this will be able to go into more detail than they could in two hours. I was surprised they included the scandal with Lady Flora, that's usually completely forgotten.

I do wonder how far they'll take the Victoria/Melbourne story. It's obvious in her writing she had a crush on him, I'm not certain how far his feelings went, so this whole "He was her first love, She was his last" might be a little much. There was apparently a larger than would be expected number of people who were shocked by her marriage to Albert and wanted a second version filmed where she and Melbourne ended up together. They're calling themselves Team Vicbourne. Okay...

It is a little teenage right now, but it's not wholly shocking considering her upbringing. I read an interview with Jenna Coleman where she said she hated how quickly they had to rush through things in the first season, they go all the way through her first child being born in eight episodes, but that's down to not knowing if they would be renewed. They've already picked up a second series and a Christmas episode next year.

I did like a lot of the costumes, more toward the second half, especially since mid nineteenth century isn't normally my thing. I really could do without the upstairs downstairs vibe, but with the hanging on popularity of Downton, and a growing number of people unwilling to watch anything solely featuring the upper class, I have a feeling that's what we're getting for quite sometime.

Marie wrote: "
I do wonder how far they'll take the Victoria/Melbourne story. It's obvious in her writing she had a crush on him, I'm not certain how far his feelings went, so this whole "He was her first love, She was his last" might be a little much. There was apparently a larger than would be expected number of people who were shocked by her marriage to Albert and wanted a second version filmed where she and Melbourne ended up together. They're calling themselves Team Vicbourne. Okay...

Whaaaattt??? Don't these people understand that you can't rewrite history? I was surprised Melbourne was considered so respectable to rise to be PM. The family frequently appear in Regency set novels. People seem to have short memories. They just gossiped about him being sued for crim con- a double standard since his wife threw herself at Lord Byron and wrote a scandalous roman a clef. I've read some of Victoria's diary entries too and she may have been infatuated with him but I never got the impression the feeling was mutual.

The 1820s and 1830s did not have the most appealing fashions. Those sleeves! Victoria's dresses are beautiful and quite restrained for the period. The sleeves will keep getting bigger. The crinoline style would suit me. I'm built like dowager Victoria. I like Jenna Coleman's look better than Emily Blunt. Emily Blunt is WAY too tall at 5'7". The costume designers had to size up all of Victoria's dresses for her. Jenna Coleman is so tiny.

Marie wrote: "I really could do without the upstairs downstairs vibe, but with the hanging on popularity of Downton, and a growing number of people unwilling to watch anything solely featuring the upper class, I have a feeling that's what we're getting for quite sometime. "

My feelings exactly. I enjoyed Downton and sometimes I like seeing the downstairs stuff but the scheming and undermining plot has been done one too many times, especially with Mercy Street coming back with pretty much the same sort of thing.

What about the Duke of Cumberland? He's portrayed as a baddie in fiction but I don't know if he was that way in real life. I don't get that vibe from the little I've read. Where are the rest of George III's living children? Princess Sophia should be there living in Victoria's household.

I read that the sweet little spaniel playing Dash is the same Dash that appeared in The Young Victoria. She's now getting on in years and deaf but responds to hand signals and is fully well aware of her own consequence as most small dogs are. They changed her name to Tori, much like Terry became Toto after the Wizard of Oz made her a star.

Another episode filled with fiction. UGH! From her journal, we know she was besotted with Albert when he arrived at court. Her diary entry reads like a giddy teenager in the throes of her first serious crush-just as she really was. Also, I read (albeit on Wikipedia) her cousin George was blind and not considered a suitable consort.

On the plus side-the Chartarist story was really interesting. Here in RI, we also had a Charter rebellion in the 1840s. It ended in failure but ended up ultimately changing things anyway.

Episode Three

I'm afraid I had to laugh when Victoria and Melbourne went riding together and she was wearing the same costume from Death Comes to Pemberley...





I know they have to reuse costumes, but they barely did anything to it, and it's quite out of date. Other than that, I am enjoying some of the more restrained costumes while they last. I'm built like Jenna, unfortunately the height too, but maybe a little thinner. I am glad they went with a shorter actress though, Emily Blunt never did look quite right. By the way, I saw the list of actresses put forward for the role... I'm glad the director refused anyone tall. Lily James with dark hair might not have been so bad, but Cara Delevigne and Chloe Grace Moretz... Really...

Yeah, I'm completely over the "downstairs" people. The lecher chef, and the betting crap. The only thing I'll maybe give them was the nephew in the uprising, but we don't need every move the staff makes. Thankfully I've seen tons of people calling for them to axe the staff part, so maybe less in series two?

They are leaving out a lot of people, and rushing through like Jenna Coleman stated, but apparently it was only meant to be a miniseries. It's had the highest ratings in Britain since Downton, so they're continuing it. It's not going to be the same without Melbourne...

I've got to say, I'm liking Lord Melbourne... History me is like NO! But after that rooks scene... I'm like companions are good! I'm not even sorry. Bad, bad Marie... Seriously it's Rufus Sewell, he owns every movie he's ever cast in, so he may not have been the best choice for the role. He was sexy as all get out when he was younger, he's a handsome older man, and he's a fabulous actor. I didn't feel this way about Paul Bettany... I'm not a fan of Tom Hughes (Albert) but I don't think he's going to be able to hold up next to RS. Seeing the end of this week, I'm a little split. Part of me wishes they had gone with David Oaks for Albert, but he looks so much like Ernest in the show.

I know Melbourne probably had no romantic feelings for Victoria. I think they're going on his words that it broke his heart when their friendship cooled after her marriage to Albert. I'm certainly not in favor of revisionist history, but it's not going to be easy watching Melbourne have to be at Victoria's wedding in this one. I'm gonna feel for him.

If I didn't know the history, and I was a lot younger, I would probably be a Vicbourne shipper but it's hard to watch. I am so over the devoted husband to crazy Caro storyline. HE wasn't such a lovely person either in real life and not a great husband. She was possibly mentally ill but her whole family was crazy. I don't see him as a husband for Victoria if they stick to facts but the fictional romance is kind of sweet. I just can't get into it knowing the real history.

Also her Uncle Cumberland went right to Hanover when Victoria became queen and she really never saw Conroy all that much.

I feel a bit sorry for her mother who was brought to England to basically be a brood mare to produce an heir to the throne, widowed and left friendless in a foreign land where she didn't speak the language. It was easy for Conroy to prey on her.

I feel like the Duchess always kind of gets a lot of flak in films about Victoria. I'm certainly not excusing many of her actions, but she was easily taken advantage. They're giving Conroy too much air time, and I hope we've seen the back of his character. I had to fight rolling my eyes when she was shocked he would dump her for a better title and money, especially with his little performance about her being treated better, but she was sincere in her feelings and in a position to be easily manipulated.

They are going too heavy with the noble, put upon but grieving husband. Sure it was a love match between him and Caroline, but their son's health had already put a huge dent in their marriage. I do think there was a huge double standard in the public treatment over their scandals, but his had the added problem of an aristocrat looking for money that kept it going. Either way they both had numerous affairs, but her death did upset him more than would've been expected. I think they're trying to put him in a reflective light, but they are romanticize it far too much. It is Daisy Goodwin's writing, so I'm not entirely surprised. I tried to read American Duchess and couldn't get past the sample chapters. Apparently her version of the rooks scene was far more physical, but the director was like no... and cut it out.

Still, if this was complete fiction, I'd be like Albert who???

Right it was fiction and Melbourne and Caro were not real people-Albert the stuffy bore would be so uninteresting. I read The American Heiress and it was OK but a little too Downton Abbey knock-off and not happy enough. I just read and The Fortune Hunter and it was better but not super great. A solid 3 stars from me.

Episode Four

Is it just me, or is the pacing horrible? Sooooo slow at times. Perhaps this is because I'm not overly impressed so far, but it does seem like it could use some better story editing to move the plot along.

My nickel's worth of dimes...

No, it's not just you, the pacing is a hot mess. They are slow to mind numbing when focusing on the "downstairs" people, but flying through the first few years of Victoria's reign. And the downstairs stories don't seem to match the same timeline as Victoria, etc.

I read that apparently it was supposed to be a miniseries on her first years as a young queen and marriage to Albert, but it's gotten the highest ratings of any network show in Britain, so they've renewed it for series two. Jenna Coleman even said she was sad that they had to rush through so many things, but the pace is supposed to allow for more historical storyline next season.

I would have liked more attention on her learning the ropes and handling of the political happenings that they've blown through (not just for more of Lord Melbourne...) instead of just the romantic angle. Yes, the Melbourne story is wrong, so wrong... But they've given us four episodes of her feelings for Lord Melbourne, then put her entire romance with Albert, from meeting to engagement in 45 minutes? It makes no sense. But, we also get cut episodes in the States. PBS shortens all of our series so they can put in sponsorships at the end, so I wonder how different the extra ten-ish minutes an episode would be.

Probably not enough to right the sinking ship, in my opinion.

It is better than watching reruns of "Two and a Half Men" though, or almost any network fare.

I came back to Victoria and approached it as a story about fictional characters loosely based on the life of Queen Victoria, which is probably how it's meant to be taken. I enjoyed this episode. I never thought I'd see a house of ill repute on PBS. I think Ernest had the right idea. Only ALBERT would take notes at a brothel LOL! He's reserved and a bit sober but I think they make a cute couple. Victoria can lighten him up and he can help her mature. Lord M can retire and the rest is the Victorian era.

Now we know "Miss Skerett's" secret. We can infer her friend was left high and dry by the baby daddy and has other means of income. Too bad that wasn't a cause our dear Victoria chose to realize and do something about.

The Queen's wedding set the fashion for white dresses, orange blossom wreaths and giant wedding cakes.
http://www.queenvictoria.victoriana.c...
Absurdly, her cake is still around almost 180 years later. Gross! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-...

I've never been all that interested in reading about the Victorian era so I've been able to enjoy watching this series so far.
If I did know more and I was able to notice all the historical inaccuracies I would probably be a little upset too. That sort of thing can drive a person crazy - so annoying.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I came back to Victoria and approached it as a story about fictional characters loosely based on the life of Queen Victoria, which is probably how it's meant to be taken. I enjoyed this episode. I ..."


Interesting to learn about the new fashion set by the Queen with her white wedding gown; I wonder what color they were before the change in fashion?

Laurie wrote: "Interesting to learn about the new fashion set by the Queen with her white wedding gown; I wonder what color they were before the change in fashion? "

Any color. Red was especially popular in the 18th century. Women wore their best dress and it was meant to be worn again. White not only symbolizes purity but also extreme wealth! It means you have enough money to not care if your dress is ruined or needs to be laundered. Someone else will wash it for you.
http://time.com/3698249/white-weddings/
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Queen Victoria would later set the fad for mauve, a brand new chemical dye color and then after her beloved Albert died, the fashion for wearing perpetual mourning. Mourning customs became much more strict than they ever had been.

I'll be glad when wearing black all the time goes out of fashion :D

Laurie wrote: "I'll be glad when wearing black all the time goes out of fashion :D"

Hey now, let's not get nasty. ;) Seriously my entire wardrobe is black, my closet is a like an infinite black hole punctuated by the occasional white dress shirt or grey sweater. :)

Yes, red was popular, purple as well but what they considered purple we think of more as a wine color. Blue was popular, partly because it represented purity at the time, partly because it was a slightly less expensive dye. Society brides would wear their wedding dress for the first party they hosted as a married woman, and possibly again but during the first year of marriage only. The further down the class ladder you went, the more it was worn, for some it became their new Sunday best. Of course poorer girls wore whatever they had that was best. White had been wildly popular among the aristocracy for its wealth status, but had started to fall out of favor with more chemical dye options becoming available, and social tastes shifting away from the Georgian country aesthetic. Victoria wanted a softer feel, as well as to appear a frugal queen (Albert's influence) by not paying for the silk to be dyed or expensive embellishments or brocades. She also wanted to show off the antique lace which had been a gift.

I'll get the recap pictures posted tomorrow, and I'll see if I can find a good picture of Victoria's actual dress. Right now I'm still mourning the loss of Lord Melbourne... ;)

Ms. M It gets slightly better once Albert enters the picture. Albert is a reserved, brooding, romantic Mama's boy who wins over the young queen in a completely ridiculous against type manner but it will appeal to the YA crowd. I HOPE it gets better from there.

Marie
I found a picture of Victoria's wedding dress but it didn't show. There are lots of images here: http://thedreamstress.com/2011/04/que...

QNPoohBear wrote: "Marie
I found a picture of Victoria's wedding dress but it didn't show. There are lots of images here: http://thedreamstress.com/2011/04/que..."

Thank you, QN, those are great! I'll post a couple here tomorrow or anyone can just follow the link if they like.

I saw someone talking the other day, she said she loves Albert but he reminds her of every emo guy she dated in high school.

YES! I thought Albert was very emo. Brooding one minute, romantic and passionate the next and a stuffy bore before and after all that. Who is he? We know Victoria adored him from her journal and apparently that visit to the house of ill repute, if it happened, was very educational. They had what 9 children?

Episode Five














Sigh...
You know it's not like I want Victoria with Lord Melbourne. I just want Lord Melbourne...

The Wedding Dress

I thought we might like to compare and contrast with Emily Blunt's dress from The Young Victoria.





And the real gown worn by Queen Victoria.



There are more pictures located here : http://thedreamstress.com/2011/04/que...

Thanks to QNPooh.

Albert has my vote. He got me when he set Dash's leg. He also helped out the little match girls and we all know that story doesn't end well, thank you Hans Christian Andersson. The Little Match Girl

That wedding dress is lovely. I like Emily Blunt's version. The new one is hard to see.

QNPoohBear wrote: "YES! I thought Albert was very emo. Brooding one minute, romantic and passionate the next and a stuffy bore before and after all that. Who is he? We know Victoria adored him from her journal and ap..."

I nearly died when she said it, because it's so hilariously true. He is very emo. I don't know if the brothel is true, but it's definitely something Ernest would have done. He took more after their father, and toured around European brothels with him as a young man. I think by now he was already suffering from a venereal disease, I know I remember reading something about Victoria's ladies saying he was not much to look at (because the illness had made him very thin and sallow) but he had nice dark eyes. Albert tried to warn him that he would never have children. He had three, but all illegitimate because he passed the disease to his wife and it's believed to have rendered her infertile.

I can't get behind Albert's character, or Tom Hughs, and I'm not interested in their children. Nine children in seventeen years... And when her doctor warned against being pregnant again she just says what, am I not supposed to have anymore fun??? I'll keep watching to see what they touch on historically, but I'm switching my fictional interest to the probably very fictional affair they have set up between Ernest and Harriet.

But that bridesmaids scene though... :D

QNPoohBear wrote: "Albert has my vote. He got me when he set Dash's leg. He also helped out the little match girls and we all know that story doesn't end well, thank you Hans Christian Andersson. [book:The Little Mat..."

I did appreciate him helping Dash. Poor baby. :/

I like Emily Blunt's dress best, it's beautiful. From what I can tell between the show and pictures, I think Jenna's is closer to the original, but The Young Victoria still wins my vote.

Did you watch Mercy Street this week? I just watched it this morning.

I would think that Albert's father or brother would have taken him to a house of ill repute LONG before his wedding day. It was the manly thing to do.

Ernest sure lived a long time for having such a disease. I always feel bad for the wives in those days, like Isabella Beeton, who ended up with their husband's nasty disease.

Flattering portrait of Ernest from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Er...

Rupert Friend was a better looking Albert though that moustache would be a relationship killer for me. He can keep the mutton chops if he MUST but the stache just has to go. It wasn't as prominent in real life from the portraits. He's passably good looking in a very Victorian way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert,...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pr...

QNPoohBear wrote: "I would think that Albert's father or brother would have taken him to a house of ill repute LONG before his wedding day. It was the manly thing to do.

Ernest sure lived a long time for having suc..."

Apparently Albert was having none of that, and in real life said even the mention of their behavior was reprehensible.

Oh, Rupert Friend wins hands down! In real life too. No mustache.

Rupert Friend made a very lovely Mr. Wickham in Lost in Austen too. He does period really well, apparently. Never thought I'd LIKE Mr. Wickham.

Marie wrote: "Laurie wrote: "I'll be glad when wearing black all the time goes out of fashion :D"

Hey now, let's not get nasty. ;) Seriously my entire wardrobe is black, my closet is a like an infinite black ho..."

Hello Marie and I'm sure you look very lovely in black :D

I suppose I meant that for a mature woman black is fine; it's just when the young'uns wear it all the time that I think it's sad.
Personally, I love bright, vibrant colors as they tend to life the spirit I've found.

The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "I thought the book was awful--too silly even for the pre-YA crowd, and rife with historical bloopers. Naturally, the worst offense was the alleged "romance/attraction/May-December" nonsense involvi..."

Since I'm not aware of all the historical bloopers going on in this series I've found it a clean, sweet and old fashioned romance; especially since there aren't too many of them around anymore.
I can completely understand why you found it revolting though :D

The miniseries of Ken Follett books were absolute torture to watch for me.

Laurie wrote: "Hello Marie and I'm sure you look very lovely in black :D..."

How mature?... :/ I'm kidding, I'm thirty so my young ones days are behind me.

The Ken Follett series were just bad. Rufus Sewell was in Pillars, so not a total loss... But World Without End was awful.

(cough) (wheeze) "I'm thirty so my young one days are behind me" ? (cough) WHAT?

Many folks are not even thinking of children till then... since it is nice to have some quality time together before kids, not to mention having a stable home/ job.

You make it sound like a trip for shopping burial plots should be scheduled for Pete's sake... at 30!!

-end curmudgeon rant-

Marie wrote: "Laurie wrote: "Hello Marie and I'm sure you look very lovely in black :D..."

How mature?... :/ I'm kidding, I'm thirty so my young ones days are behind me.

The Ken Follett series were just bad. ..."

I don't know why but ever since watching the atrocious "World Without End" miniseries I can not abide the actress Charlotte Riley.
Here lately it seems she's in way too many costume drama's shown on PBS too.

Marie wrote: "
How mature?... :/ I'm kidding, I'm thirty so my young ones days are behind me. ."

Not so. I'd like to be 30 again.

We're snowed in again so I don't know if I'll get to watch my shows tonight. My dad won't watch Mercy Street. He's squeamish, despite being a doctor. I'll give Victoria one more chance and see how it goes.

I'd go so far as to say the best years don't START till 30. Of course they end by about 40 or so, lol. : )

Erik wrote: "I'd go so far as to say the best years don't START till 30. Of course they end by about 40 or so, lol. : )"

That's not what I want to hear. My best years were 21-23 so far. Still waiting for the best years to come.

Hahaha! I've started looking for knitting needles, burial plot is on the agenda for next year. ;)

I've honestly always believed 20's were building years, and the best part of living was in your 30's. That's probably why I didn't panic at turning thirty.


I love cold, QN, but I don't envy you the weather you guys are having. If I watch the shows tonight, it won't be until midnight, probably tomorrow night.

Victoria wasn't bad. Albert is still brooding and the Queen gets some really bad advice on how to prevent children from coming. The history behind the episode was interesting and I wish they went into a little more detail.

I love love love the curtseying Dalmation!

Snow count so far: about 15 inches plus ice give or take. More on the way tomorrow.

I'll never say I wasn't having a good time and all when I was a college lad, but it was sure a lot nicer to be having the same fun or more so and actually not being broke! : )

Certainly the quality of my entertainment improved, not to mention finally having a clue on how I was going to proceed through life. Never underestimate the value of that.

Episode Six