SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

We didn't have a thread for discussing the book after we're done. There won't be prior comments but this thread will work from here on.

Have fun!

I may be in the minority here but this won't be the first Discworld novel I'd recommend to people.

It's not the one I recommend. Not so much for quality as because it's not a typical Discworld book. People who want to give the series a chance will get a better view from a later book.

Yes. And the ending actually upsets me since it was a cliffhanger. And the next book is not better as well. Indeed the series got better along the way and I started my Discworld journey from another later arc. But I know many enjoyed this alot too.

Silvana wrote: "I may be in the minority here but this won't be the first Discworld novel I'd recommend to people."

i am so glad some one else wasn't enthralled with this book. I found that the 2nd and 3rd book slipped into my skim to see if anything better happens category.

obviously we all like different things but discworld lovers seem to be very enthusiastic

Kateb wrote: "Silvana wrote: "I may be in the minority here but this won't be the first Discworld novel I'd recommend to people."

i am so glad some one else wasn't enthralled with this book. I found that the 2n..."

But not because of The Colour of Magic. At least, that's pretty rare.

I do think that TCOM is a good book, but it's nothing like the later Discworld books. It's both shallower and in a way more challenging (because to enjoy it fully you need to like its very specific sense of humour and you need to be able to understand its references, both to literature generally and to fantasy fiction prior to 1983 in particular). His later books become more accessible, and also much richer and more rewarding.

This is not Pratchett's finest work. It is rough compared to some of his later writing. But it is still unique and sets a standard for satirical fantasy, which might as well be a genre invented by him.

I do think the luggage and twoflower as well as the intro of Unseen U quite fun. I think it went just so so for me when they met the Conan dude.

I agree with most here, it is not his (Mr Pratchett's) finest work, He was just beginning to hone his art at this point but it is still funny in places and many of the characters envisioned here will have their day in the sun in later novels.
Cohen (the barbarian, and the octogenarian barbarian horde) will reach fruition in another later novel (one of the cleverest in my opinion) where led by a maths teacher ( the pupils in 4C were harder to control than any mongol, vandal or hun horde) the barbarian horde (all eight of them) conquer China.

I think I am just not a Pratchett guy. This was the first I had read and it was entertaining but not so much that I wanted to continue. The book club added Mort so I read that and also mildly entertaining but not so enough to not skip reading Guards! Guards!

Hank wrote: "I think I am just not a Pratchett guy. This was the first I had read and it was entertaining but not so much that I wanted to continue. The book club added Mort so I read that and also mildly enter..."

My general advice for anyone who is about to give up on Pratchett would be to read Small Gods.

Although it's widely considered his masterpiece, I don't actually think it's his best, although it's certainly up there. However, if you don't find anything to like in Small Gods, Pratchett probably isn't for you.

It's a much better shibboleth than something like Mort, which is much lighter and shallower, not to mention just nowhere near as well written.

Lol- @Wastrel "Shibboleth"? I know what it means but only one in a thousand will. I liked small gods, but for me it did not set the heather alight. Good Omens with Neil Gaiman worked for me. Mort I enjoyed but for me it is the sheer mass of the entertainment and joy that makes Pratchett. You may sometimes just be amused, at others laughing out loud, at others sniggering from the corner of your mouth. Another time, another book, rolling on the ground with tears streaming from your eyes. But to me that was not what made him so good. I loved the fact that he was clever and funny but there have been many writers cleverer, others funnier. The everyday wisdom between the wit and witticism's, the almost literary slapstic. A dickens for the modern age methinks me lurd.

Raymond wrote: "Lol- @Wastrel "Shibboleth"? I know what it means but only one in a thousand will. "

Google to the rescue! I will consider myself part of the outgroup with this particular Shibboleth but with some insight and appreciation for the ingroup.

@Hank, The only reason (despite being a phenomenal reader, mainly due to insomnia) that I know what it involves is due to an episode of "The West Wing" otherwise I would have remained blissfully unaware of that biblical fact. I am certainly not claiming omniscience here.

Never read Small Gods but it is in my TBR. So far the best DW book I read was Night Watch.

I'm always torn between the Watch books and anything involving Granny Weatherwax as my favourites.

Raymond wrote: "Lol- @Wastrel "Shibboleth"? I know what it means but only one in a thousand will."

Isn't it one of the monsters created by the Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos?

Leonie wrote: "I'm always torn between the Watch books and anything involving Granny Weatherwax as my favourites."

The Witches are my favorite, but Death and the Watch are close seconds - though I think Mort might be one of my least favorite Death books.

I feel like Wyrd Sisters is where the series really starts gelling into itself, if that makes any sense.

I am VERY partial to Night Watch. It is the book that is most like literature: theme heavy and descriptive.

Also, I totally got shibboleth and applaud good use of vocabulary. This is why I check GoodReads daily and Twitter only on weekends. *This is also the part where a mod jumps in and scolds us for being wickedly off task.

I didn't love The Colour of Magic, in fact it took me about three attempts to finish the book!

I'm the sort of person that cannot read these things in the wrong order, so I'm glad I got through it. I can appreciate the story now I'm further into the series, if not the exact way it was written because it does give you a lot of information to set the Discworld up later on.

If one thing frustrates me about the series so far, it's the constant re-referencing of certain facts, such as the nature of the Discworld and how sunlight reacts to the magical field. Once you've read that several times it gets old. Good for people who want to pick any book up as a one off, but not so much for me.

there's always the trade-off between cluing in the new readers and forcing the old ones through stuff they knew already. . . I think such passages are among the dullest in fiction.

Rebecca wrote: "I'm the sort of person that cannot read these things in the wrong order, so I'm glad I got through it."

I started with The Color of Magic for similar reasons; I enjoy starting from the beginning. I can understand how the books would be easy enough to follow out of order, but there’s still a steady progression as an author invents a world. In the case of Discworld, there are in-jokes that aren’t funny if one reads the books out of order, and characters that one might not appreciate as much if they don’t know the background from when they were first introduced.

I also noticed the same thing about the repetition of the world-building facts. I did think that started to fade after the first several books. I’m about half way through the series now and there’s still some of it, but it doesn’t seem nearly as bad to me.

Of the ones I’ve read so far, I think Wyrd Sisters is my favorite. I’ve enjoyed most of the Witches books. I wasn’t crazy for Guards! Guards!, but I’ve enjoyed several of the other City Watch books quite a bit. I’m still iffy on Death, but Hogfather was cute. Rincewind is a fun character, and I enjoy his books for the humor, but they tend to be the least plot-driven of them all.

I’ve said this elsewhere, so apologies to people who have already read it, but Discworld is a bit of an oddity for my reading list. I’m not usually crazy for the silly, satirical, wink-at-the-reader type of humor in my books. I like humor, but I want it to feel like a more natural part of the story. I don’t think these books will ever be counted among my very favorites, but I do enjoy them and they work especially well for me as palate cleansers between more serious books. They also work really well for me as travel books. I don’t mind reading them in a noisy airport, for example, because I never feel like they require any concentration to keep track of the plot. If I get distracted every 2 minutes, it’s no big deal. I also never get so absorbed by them that I’m tempted to sit in the hotel and read when I have other things to do.

colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Leonie wrote: "I'm always torn between the Watch books and anything involving Granny Weatherwax as my favourites."

The Witches are my favorite, but Death and the Watch are close seconds - though I..."

I remember reading Witches Abroad for the first time, and nearly crying with laughter as I read about Nanny Ogg dancing. Still makes me laugh.

@Ryan, You know "Shibboleth" could easily have been Cthulhu or one of Lovecraft's many monsters. The name does sound intimidating, many Hebrew words do, to those not accustomed to them (including most of the angelic names). But then I thought about it and it is nothing to do with Hebrew words, rather it is just to do with old words. The "Scot's" Highland cow will be familiar to most. A hairy but cuddly looking beast despite the large horns. Then think of it's earlier name, The "Auroch" which makes it sound almost demonic.
I ran through many original words and modern adaptions in my thought process and realised that it is neither form or word that makes the difference but the cadence of the language. English has become more subtle with soft vowels and input from many other tones/languages (particularly French and Italian) has moderated it and so when you hear original language it is jarring and so (in a way) otherworldly.

Hank wrote: "I think I am just not a Pratchett guy. This was the first I had read and it was entertaining but not so much that I wanted to continue. The book club added Mort so I read that and also mildly enter..."

fully agree, I have even skipped to later books in the series and just cant get excited enough to read it

I'm a little late to the party, but I just finished it. I pretty much agree with what's been said.

It's sort of telling that the only thing anybody has to say about the book is that it's not the best Discworld book.

I've read none of the books needed to get the references. Well, I read a single Pern novel once, but it was so long ago that I didn't make the connection until it was pointed out to me.

I think maybe this just isn't a great book for somebody who isn't familiar with the material it's satirizing.

I read and loved all of the Witches books and this was my first foray into the Discworld outside of those ones. I liked The Color of Magic, but I agree that it felt very much like Pratchett is working up to something. I enjoyed Rincewind and Twoflower but they didn't seem to have as much liveliness as characters like Granny, Magrat, and Nanny (although it'd be hard to match Nanny's liveliness haha).

Does anyone have any suggestions for Discworld books for someone who loved the Witches books?

Kristin wrote: "I read and loved all of the Witches books and this was my first foray into the Discworld outside of those ones. I liked The Color of Magic, but I agree that it felt very much like Pratchett is ..." I love all the witches books Esme and nanny are among my favorite characters in a pantheon of those liked. My most loved books of Terry's were (excluding the Witches books), "Interesting Times", "Small Gods" and "Soul Music".
They are worth a try.

Mary wrote: "It's not the one I recommend. Not so much for quality as because it's not a typical Discworld book. People who want to give the series a chance will get a better view from a later book."

I'd agree. I love Colour of Magic (heck, I love pretty much every Discworld book) but I feel like Terry was still finding his voice a little with this one.

After reading this I wondered how this became such a long and much loved series. It was okay. This book has been sitting on the shelf unread for several years. I bought it for my daughter (about 17) because she had heard it was a top fantasy series. She and I never made it past a few pages. When it made the challenge list this year decided to give it another try.
It got better after the first chapter and there are some interesting parts. I love the luggage.
I will try another another book at some point.

The first book is the worst ... IMO the series doesn't really get going until the third book. (The only reason I made it deeper was I bought the first three books while traveling, stuck them in my luggage (ha ha) and then read them as I had little else to read in english. The first was OK, the second slightly better, but the third is what finally hooked me.)

Matt wrote: "My mum and uncle love the series but I never got around to reading any of them until recently. I have read the first two books so far, and while I agree the were in the 'good but not amazing' categ..."

Fair enough, though there are a few pretty intense books (much) later in the series.

Stylistically, there are really seven or eight "Discworlds" - not surprising when they were published over the span of over 30 years. There are continuing threads both of authorial style and of worldbuilding, and of running characters, but there are also massive differences.

You've got the Discworld of The Colour of Magic, and the Discworld of Guards! Guards! and Wyrd Sisters, and the Discworld of Small Gods and Lords and Ladies, and the Discworld of Feet of Clay, and the Discworld of Night Watch, and the Discworld of The Truth and Monstrous Regiment, and the Discworld of Going Postal and The Wee Free Men (though the latter is a YA version of the former), and the Discworld of Unseen Academicals... and they're really, really different from one another. Guards! Guards! and Night Watch have the same setting and a shared protagonist, but tonally they are completely different. Unfortunately, the change in the series over time is a gradual thing, rather than having convenient turning points.

Most people agree that the 'best' Discworld is somewhere in the middle, but nobody really agrees where. Every Discworld book is someone's favourite and someone's least favourite. For instance, someone upthread suggested Interesting Times and Soul Music - two books that are widely considered among the worst of the series!
[personally, I agree with the consensus that neither is among the best, but I'd only really damn Interesting Times, while I actually quite liked Soul Music myself.]

Well, my first book was "The Light Fantastic" and I was hooked and I found that and quite a few others amazing.
My faves include some of his lesser known works like "Pyramids" and "Small Gods" which to me are some of the funniest and most amazing of Pratchett's work.
My least favorites are "Snuff", "Raising Steam" and "The Night Watch". They were, of course, later books and I found them almost totally devoid of humor.
Have fun finding your faves.

There's always the tragic element of when his abilities began to slide.

I didn't read two of his last ones. They just put me off too quickly.

I couldn't read "Raising Steam" either. Sad. Too sad that it had to be published.

I just finished reading TheColour of Magic.

Some of the carictures and jokes in the novel work very well. Pratchett knowns fantasy tropes and classics. He can really be funny and incredibly imaginative. Discworld is silly and brilliant at the same time and some of the winks he does to classics works (Bravd and Weasel as counter parts of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser come to mind) are just delightful.

Other times he just reuses cliches and we sort of know where the story and characters are going. Like in the first part of the novel, the main protagonist is charged with protecting a tourist who is clueless and doesn't speak the local tongue. So the tourist doesn't realize all the danger he is in and somehow always narrowly avoids death and injuries. We've seen this many times and isn't paticularly interesting or entertaining.

Maybe it is the language barrier (French is my native language), but sometimes Pratchett is hard to follow. He often wants to write something really surprising or silly, so he is more alluve than descriptive, but sometimes I didn't really know what just happened and had to re-read what what he wrote.

This one was not as polished as I'm used to seeing a book, it felt a bit more like a collection of short stories, maybe even fan fiction at times, but I realize this was the start of the series. That said, I did enjoy reading it, it was a fun ride with a lot of solid humor, especially for fans of fantasy novels.

It's interesting as I was watching the BBC'S Pratchett memorial piece, "Back in Black", and Neil Gaiman talked about this and the Light Fantastic - how people think to start with them because of chronology but how it was a mistake.

I couldn't but agree - to me he doesn't hit his peak until Small Gods, and starting at the beginning is inviting the new reader to be predisposed against Pratchett unless they do have a very specific sense of humour and reading history.

The sections of the plot as it was were rather disjointed, and our protagonists as they were fell into one situation after another, somewhat reminiscent in this way of Classics such as Tarzan.
This eventually was explained when towards the end of the novel when I realized what the Lady represented. All of a sudden a naive tourist and a cowardly powerless "wizard" miraculously overcoming obstacles in the manner they did made a lot more sense.
I look forward to the rest of this long series because with so many saying this isn't the best of his books theres a lot to look forward too

You're in for a treat, Ben. It not only isn't the best of his books, imho it is his worst. So if you are already enamoured with this one you have a hell of a ride to look forward to!

Kristin wrote: "Does anyone have any suggestions for Discworld books for someone who loved the Witches books? ..."

The Tiffany Aching books are similar and contain lots of cameos by the witches. Start with "Wee Free Men".

Ben wrote: "I look forward to the rest of this long series because with so many saying this isn't the best of his books theres a lot to look forward too."

It's not so much that it's the best -- or worst -- it's that it's atypical of Discworld, which was still taking form.

(view spoiler)[For instance, there are a lot of fans who insist that the Patrician here has obviously got to be Snapcase. Pratchett had said, no, it was Vetinari made by a less competent writer, except
that since Vetinari didn't exist at this point he couldn't have be him. (hide spoiler)]