Reading the Chunksters discussion

1. Ohio is our new historical destination, and the scene is nearly Wild, Wild West. Did this part flow smoothly in the novel? Is this rough historical transition necessary?
Does it also serve another purpose to show how culturally different the two countries were on both sides of the pond?

2. Shade is still staying in the shade while the day of the narrative is taking us to many places across the globe. Do you still think his name is accidental?

3. In chapter 13, we get the second name as a tribute, Charles Dickens. Both he and Wilkie Collins were mentioned cursorily in this novel. Do you view this novel as a tribute to those two iconic figures?

4. In chapter 14, we are again on the eternal quest to find the truth, now the truth about Adam's father. First, his origin, his name (as a part of his true identity), and his recollection of his father and his father's death.
The narrator asks us and Adam a question. "How much of that was true? All of it, he would say. None of it."

One can only project this question on the current narrative - How much of what we are told is true?

Thoughts?

Zulfiya wrote: "The narrator asks us and Adam a question. "How much of that was true? All of it, he would say. None of it." ..."

This gets to how memories trick us. Are people who lie for a living (e.g. con-artists) more susceptible to lying to themselves? Or is this a problem for all of us to greater or lesser extent? Do we all create our own comfortable realities? To repeat, what is the truth? Are Foole, Molly, and Pinkerton all lying to themselves to protect themselves from some hard truths.

I would add that facts and truth are not the same thing. Facts are pretty straightforward. Truth can be subtle and elusive.

Regarding comparing America to London. London and American societies have brutal criminal underbellies. Ringo has killed many and without remorse. Jonathan Cooper has killed for the joy of it. But Ringo hides in the open, and he and Pinkerton and his henchmen meet on a train platform where he is kidnapped in broad daylight in front of many witnesses; while Charlotte moves from alias to alias and jumps off a bridge in the dark of night, Cooper and others hide in the bowels of the sewer system, and the Sharper sisters emerge from the shadows of their own home.

Darkenss versus Light. In London the underbelly stays hidden. In America criminals are mythologized and the rawness of society is exposed. Look up Johnny Ringo and you will come across names like Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday. Ringo's grave site is an historical site.

Miscellany:

"The eyes like amethysts pressed in wax (p 263)."

Pinkerton's partial description of Foole. What a fascinating and contradictory image. Sparkling gems surrounded by the yellow, dull opacity of wax.

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"Fascinating man, that Mr. Dickens. Don't much care for his writing much, though."

Clerk talking to Pinkerton, and a little nod with a twinkle in the author's eyes to Dickens who is in someways all over this story.

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"Bastard's like to start his peeping now until he learns the truth" (p 278).

Fludd talking to Foole about Pinkerton. Perhaps an indication that we will soon be learning more about our Mr. Foole (and Mr. Fludd).

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "This gets to how memories trick us. Are people who lie for a living (e.g. con-artists) more susceptible to lying to themselves? Or is this a problem for all of us to greater or lesser extent? Do we all create our own comfortable realities?."

Truth and memory seem to be the two key themes in this novel. Both are easily modified because their subjective nature. One can argue and that truth is universal, but I do agree with you that truth is a subjective perceptive of facts.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Miscellany:

""The eyes like amethysts pressed in wax (p 263)."."

An allusion to Madam Tussaud's Museum ( or as I was informed that nowadays it is permissible to use the phrase without the apostrophe) or/and to the Old Curiosity Shop, particularly Mrs Jarley's wax figures? ... Just because Dickens was mentioned in the book :-)

Truth is such a sticky wicket for Adam and William. Their truth seems to be unfolding as to what they can bear in that moment. Both have had incredibly traumatic pasts and it reminds me of the Jack Nicholson line "You can't handle the truth!"

Had a crazy week here, so no real time for reading. But finally got time last night and this morning to finish up this section. Glad I did, it was a good one!

I did think the switch to the old west was quite jarring, but I think it was good to give more of William's history, and his relationship with his father. To your point, I do think it shows some cultural differences, but also some similarities when it comes to lawlessness and justice outside the law.

In this crowd, I'm slightly ashamed to admit I have never read any Wilkie Collins. But I've read plenty of Dickens... generally not a fan of his. This is holding my attention a lot better. I think although it does share many aspects of that style of writing, as I mentioned near the beginning it is written in such a way to appeal more to modern sensibilities. Also, the characters don't seem to be tripping over answers through accident and coincidence as much as they seem to in Dickens' work. Yes, it seems everything is related, but in a much more believable way in my opinion.

As for truth... I like what Xan said about the difference between truth and facts. Even with all the facts, the truth is somewhat elusive. And these guys are still putting together even the facts... so I'm not sure there is hope of truth any time soon. I do think they have gotten skilled at lying to themselves, as much as to others.

And finally, we learn something about Shade! Can't wait to keep reading!

Deana wrote: "I did think the switch to the old west was quite jarring, but I think it was good to give more of William's history, and his relationship with his father. To your point, I do think it shows some cultural differences, but also some similarities when it comes to lawlessness and justice outside the law.."

Do you think many of us find this transition jarring because westerns do not appeal to our literary sensibilities, and the genre itself is too often considered sub-par and a fringe one? Larry McMurtry and Cormac McCarthy are the only ones who have been acknowledged for their style of writing.

Is Price playing with our literary tastes and what we consider literary fiction?

That's an interesting thought, Z. He might be doing just that. He could also be showing how different the U.S. and England are with one being settled and the other not. The U.S. has recently concluded a civil war in which more Americans died than in any other war and Reconstruction is near an end. Nothing like this in England during the same period. England appears more civil on the surface, yet there is lawlessness in both countries -- the U.S, with its wild west, and London with its sewers and the Flash. And while England has its colonies, the U.S. has its Manifest Destiny and territories.