Science Fiction & Fantasy Award Winning Book Group discussion

Hey everyone. This is for discussion of March’s group book:
The Child Garden by Geoff Ryman.
This won the 1990 Arthur C. Clarke award.

Unless it’s a very general comment make sure you use spoiler code.
< spoiler>Comment< /spoiler> Without the spaces.

It sounds like it has some rather interesting and novel ideas in it.

I plan to join in on this if my interlibrary loan copy comes in!

Neither of this month's are in my local library, so I'll be buying them after I get paid!

Started this one first because I think it will take me longer to read.

Through Chapter 3.

(view spoiler)[Okay this is officially the weirdest book that I've read in a while and I can say that after only three chapters. And I only finished The Stars Are Legion a week ago. Dystopia's aren't really my favorite sub-genre, but this one might be different because Milena and Rolfa are such unique characters. I'd like to hear more about the Revolution. What happened to manufacturing? Why is paper so expensive and radios are a thing of the past? Will there be a lot of world building or will this be more character focused? (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch 6

(view spoiler)[Okay I'm a little confused with the virus/knowledge connection. Is there a different virus for each bit of knowledge? So each child gets a different combination of viruses? And who, or what, is Heather? Is she a representation of a certain virus or is she an actual person who was Read into the Consensus and somehow made her way into Milena?
There seems to be two layers to the story so far. The relationship between Milena and Rolfa, and the backstory of the Revolution, Chao Li Song, and the Consensus being the beginning of the universe.
If Rolfa's Bad Grammar was 'fixed' with a virus, and the virus is contagious, why didn't Milena get 'fixed'?
Chapters 5 & 6 were confusing for me but hopefully everything gets explained. Enjoying the story so far. (hide spoiler)]

Jon; I agree!

Through Chapter 3.

(view spoiler)[It looks like he's working on the theory, that I've seen bounced around by doom-mongers, that we rely heavily on metals and other non-renewable resources for our standard of living, so once we've exhausted all the mines then we won't have anything to make any more radios out of! It's based on the assumption that tech won't improve to reduce our use of materials, use new renewable materials or find a way to adequately recycle materials. So radios are gone because the materials to make them are prohibitively expensive.

I'm having some trouble so far imagining a love affair between a woman and a bear. Call me an old-fashioned but I do believe that a romantic relationship should have some sexual attraction which isn't really possible between species? The writing seems good though, so I'm expecting to be pulled in and believing it before the end. (hide spoiler)]

Through Chapter 6.

(view spoiler)[Frankly, I am not sure that I have any idea what's going on. I think this book requires some very close reading and I shouldn't have tried to dip in and out of it during my lunch break at work!

So I've already embarrassed myself by thinking that the bears were actually bears (as in Northern Lights talking bears). I thought they were bears made intelligent, but now I think that they're humans made bearish?
The virus thing isn't very clear. He says things she: 'she consulted the virus' as if the virus were a separate entity inside her. I had imagined it as changing her mind/thoughts, not separate from her mind and thoughts.
Jon, you're right, it was definitely written as if the virus was catching and Milena would also 'catch' straightness from Rolfa.

My poor bruised heart, though. I felt so sorry for Rolfa and Milena, and their star-crossed love. Poor Rolfa, with her 'piglet' teddy, asking if they could be Pooh and Christopher Robin got me right in the feels. It just generated such a clear vision of Rolfa's childhood, reading Winnie-the-Pooh alone and wishing for a friend. (hide spoiler)]

Nick,

(view spoiler)[I didn't realize that Ch 7 was the end of book 1. It cleared up some things for me which I won't go into in case you haven't gotten that far yet. I'm halfway through Ch 8 and things have changed in a strange way. The part I'm at right now completely reminds me of Kameron Hurley.

I think you make a good point about the mines. Once you said that I remembered that the GM Polar Bears were mining at the poles. Also the economic system seems to be based on Communism. Didn't a couple of the characters take a couple of shots at Capitalism?

That's funny that you thought the polar bears were like the bears from The Golden Compass but I can totally see the connection. Yeah they're Genetically Modified humans. I've had to go back and reread several sections so far (that was one of them), which I typically don't have to do.

The virus thing is starting to make a bit more sense. And once I started Ch 7 I had to do a head smack because I should have known why Milena didn't get 'fixed'!

Trying to get through Ch 9 at least tonight. Looking forward to seeing what you think of the next few chapters. (hide spoiler)]

Jon:

(view spoiler)[Jon wrote: "And once I started Ch 7 I had to do a head smack because I should have known why Milena didn't get 'fixed'."
I'm catching up now - it's because she has a natural immunity, right? (hide spoiler)]

Nick wrote: "Jon:

Jon wrote: "And once I started Ch 7 I had to do a head smack because I should have known why Milena didn't get 'fixed'."
I'm catching up now - it's because she has a natural immunity, right?"

Hahahaha, exactly!

Had a nice afternoon curled up with a book and I've now made it to the end of chapter 10!

Chapters 7

(view spoiler)[Chapter 7 broke my heart. Poor Milena and Rolfa, finally coming together, only to be broken apart.

I am not entirely sure why the authorities gave Rolfa a reading and the virus. All they were going to get out of it was an opera, but also the anger of all the bears and other GE people? I'm not sure that I fully understood the politics here.

I forgot to say I absolutely loved the snide, but still don't understand anything about Heather, who she is or where she came from.

I have absolutely no idea what's going on with Charlie and the Charlie slide. Chao Li somehow actually started the universe and is sending materials to earth from the start of time? How does that work? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 8

(view spoiler)[This was short and sweet. I like the idea of Rolfa's mother and Melina striking up a friendship, and poor Milena looking for Rolfa. I'm not sure why Rolfa went home after she got the cure, especially when she said she was going to find somewhere else to stay in the Zoo? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9

(view spoiler)[Loved the deeper exploration of the viruses with the illegal virus that makes the play. I also loved the deeper exploration of the snides with the scenes with Max and Al.

I still haven't really understood why this is now being told in flashbacks from orbit? Or what's going on with Root the Terminal being there. Are we going to find out that everything so far is a flashback from the moment of Milena being read in the future? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[ I have to admit, I started to find it rather dull and slow going. I am interested in Milena's childhood - I just wish that it would go a little faster. For example, what was the point of the scene with Milena running off into the field and her mother spanking her? Do we need quite so much detail of everyday life in The Child Garden?

Very interesting to see Milena's perspective on shutting off the virus!

It's very weird to see Czechoslovakia in the future.

I'm also not very interested in Thrawn and the opera. It's not bad, I just wish it would hurry up! (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch 9

(view spoiler)[Ch 7 was the end of Book 1 and cleared up some things for me. In retrospect it was a nice finish to that part of the story.

In Book 2 things have really changed for Milena and we might be beginning to see the breakdown of society? The viruses are beginning to mutate and cause problems. Met Rolfa's mother Hortensia, who was pretty funny. There is some going back and forth in time through Milena's memories and I'm starting to look at Book 1 as the set up for Milena changing society in Book 2.

Nick, I liked the snides too. I wonder if they're going to play a larger role later on. It was weird to see the personal growth in the snide who up until now has been a minor character. Max and Thrawn are both interesting as characters who are trying (tried) to impede Milena's progress.

The Bulge is where I had the Kameron Hurley flashbacks, even though this was written before her works. (hide spoiler)]

The only Kameron Hurley I've read is God's War, but I can totally see the parallels between the biopunk thing that she does. In God's War there was a lot 'bugs' about which reminds me a bit of (view spoiler)[Milena's immune system. (hide spoiler)]

Nick wrote: "The only Kameron Hurley I've read is God's War, but I can totally see the parallels between the biopunk thing that she does. In God's War there was a lot 'bugs' about which reminds me a bit of [spo..."

(view spoiler)[You're right! I didn't even think of that. Like when Milena's Mice swarmed Rolfa's Piglet after she left, or when as a baby she watched the bug come out of her skin.

I was thinking of the Bulge and how it reminded me of [book:The Stars Are Legion|29090844]. I think that there's a little bit of that in the later books of the Bel Dame Apocrypha too, but I can't remember exactly. (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch 12

Chapter 10
(view spoiler)[The longest chapter in the book and it sure felt like it. Quite a bit of world building and I understand things better but it dragged for me. Mike Stone and his snapping turtle might have been the high point. Is he supposed to represent organized religion as a counterpoint to what the Consensus is doing in the universe? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11
(view spoiler)[The most science fiction in the book so far if we ignore the viruses. This was a tryout to make sure that they could show the opera, right? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12
(view spoiler)[Big scene with Thrawn. Is she going to screw things up later on? It was funny to see Milena through Lucy's eyes.(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11 (hide spoiler)]

On Chapter 10:

(view spoiler)[The religion angle is interesting, because it's another part of the world-buidling that isn't explained, but definitely feels like there's a whole backstory there. I don't think Mike Stone ever is explained, or why he's a Christian, or how the Consensus feels about Christianity. There was a moment, I think I remember, when the book was discussing the history of the Consensus and it says something like: 'Charlie made a deal with the organised religion of the time and out of that the Consensus was born so really we're living in a theocracy'. But it was such a throw-away line that I can't be sure. I might try to see if I can find it later.

Glad I'm not the only one who found it dragged at this point!

And yes, Mike was hilarious! (hide spoiler)]

Finally started this and so far it's unusual but interesting.
Chapter 1 -3.

(view spoiler)[
This collapsed world of limited metal resources seems an interesting and relatively little used idea compared to many other dystopian settings.
Rolfa is an unusual character, a genetically engineered human bear is a first for me.
Curious to see how this virus education and new human types work.
(hide spoiler)]

On Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[I remember that line. It stuck out because of the thought of Marxism mixing with religion. This is the kind of book that probably needs to be read two or three times to make all of the connections. At least for my tired brain. (hide spoiler)]

Through Ch 16

Ch 13
(view spoiler)[The viruses are mutating and really causing problems for people. This chapter accentuates the differences between Milena and everyone else as she tries to help the sick. It was nice to see that she and Cilla had become actual friends. (hide spoiler)]

Ch 14
(view spoiler)[Thrawn is back and causing problems. I find her to be an interesting character, as evil as she is. Should I have predicted Milena getting married? Have to admit I didn't see it coming. And we learn the Consensus' plan for Milena. This book does a pretty good job of switching from small personal issues to much larger ones. (hide spoiler)]

Ch 15
(view spoiler)[Speech. Huh. The last chapter and this one a look at art and its' origins and inspirations? (hide spoiler)]

Ch 16
(view spoiler)[A blast to the past. Lucy, Jacob, Thrawn, Hortensia and Rolfa all show up. Starting to tie everything up as we get close to the end.
I know that Book 2 is Milena remembering things that happened to her in the past. As she jumps back and forth some of it gets jumbled together in my head. It's funny too that my mind keeps assigning certain ages to these people when they're described as children and adults. I always have to remember that the children are all probably under 5 yrs old, the adults are pre-teens to teenagers and the old people are late 20's to early thirties. (hide spoiler)]

Jon, I think you're totally right that: 'This is the kind of book that probably needs to be read two or three times to make all of the connections.'

I'm finished, but I've no idea what to make of it. I feel like it's going to need some time to digest.

Read chapters 4 - 6.

(view spoiler)[
This is highly confusing at first but I found things do start to come together after a little while. The virus system of teaching and conditioning as a replacement for a biological computer system which has the advantage, and disadvantage, of being able to connect directly to humans. It could be used for some very scary control over people without them being aware.

I'm still puzzled and curious where things will go.
(hide spoiler)]

Finished

(view spoiler)[Chapters 17 - 20 show Milena as she gets cancer and begins to die. I was surprised at how sad I became at certain points, looking at death through the eyes of someone else and comparing her memories to either my own or to someone I know. I thought that part was really well done. I was also surprised at how important/vital Mike became to Milena.

Didn't really like the end. It was a little too Deepak Chopra for me if that makes sense.

Has anyone read Dante's The Divine Comedy and if so is this book structured in a similar way or reflect certain aspects? I just ask because it was so important to the storyline and I think both works have three internal parts/books.

I'm with Nick in that I'm not sure what I think of it. It was a good book but I don't think I enjoyed it.

I noticed last night that another one of his books won the Arthur C Clarke Award. Have to go look that one up. (hide spoiler)]

Joe,

(view spoiler)[You're right. Whoever controlled the viruses controlled the knowledge in society. You could just eliminate certain ideas that you don't like or agree with. Forms of government, religions, branches of science etc. Frightening to think about. (hide spoiler)]

Jon,

(view spoiler)[I think you're absolutely right about Divine Comedy. I haven't read it either but I think it would probably be quite meaningful.

I know what you mean about it all being a bit Deepak Chopra. On the whole, I think it worked. Especially because the idea had been pretty clearly telegraphed in advance (although I absolutely didn't see it coming!). We'd already seen the angels so we know that there could be consciousness outside of bodies; we knew the Milena could resist and even change viruses; we knew that she hated the way the consensus used people.

Although the more I think about it, the more of a problem I have with the 'separateness' of it all. I mean, at first it was the viruses as a separate thing inside a mind. It seems to me that a virus would change the human mind itself, not act like a bolt-on to the mind. I felt the same way when we saw the inside of the consensus. All the little human minds were separate indivuduals - but I had imagined them all being part of the consensus, merged somehow, not just 'inside' the consensus.

The book seems to have some idea of an inviolable 'soul', a self that cannot be changed no matter how many viruses attack it or what physical form houses it.

Even Rolfa, after she'd been cured, when she came to see Milena, it seemed liek the 'real' Rolfa was still inside of her and wishing that they could be together, but she was somehow forced to act 'normal' by the viruses rather than actually changing to be a normal, if that makes sense? (hide spoiler)]

Nick,

(view spoiler)[I'm not sure how to explain my feelings about the ending because I'm still kind of thinking about it. You're right that the ideas about the universe had been previously established so that wasn't a total surprise. I think that what bothered me was that it was too much too fast. This was a relatively slow moving book with a bunch of ideas that were looked at from several different perspectives. And as readers we came back to look at different things and to see how they changed over the course of Milena's life. And then it just seemed like . . . Milena's dead and she broke the Consensus and the babies are free and the universe is inter-connected and Milena and Rolfa are together and the angels are singing the end (all in four to five pages). Hahahaha, anyway that's how it feels right now.

That virus/soul thought is interesting. The viruses were supposed to go in and change people's DNA, right? So Rolfa shouldn't have felt any remorse or regrets except I read it that way too. Wasn't she singing to Milena as she walked away the last time? And then Rolfa joins with Milena at the end. If she had been permanently 'fixed' that shouldn't have happened. So there has to be a part of her that is separate from her physical body.

I kind of pictured the Consensus as 'the sum is greater than it's parts'. There were two levels to it and if you wanted to be on the upper level I guess you had to go along with what it wanted. And all the minds on the upper level working in concert just made some great big 'mind'. (hide spoiler)]

Jon,

(view spoiler)[Yes, you are right about it wrapping up very quickly! I wonder if that comes back to the Divine Comedy and if it would make more sense in relation to that.

Dammit *adds Divine Comedy to TBR pile*

Jon wrote: "And then Rolfa joins with Milena at the end. If she had been permanently 'fixed' that shouldn't have happened"

Yes, I got the impression that the consensus read a person before they fixed them, and added a copy of the original person to the lower level. It was the original unfixed Rolfa that emerged from the consensus when everyone was set free and joined with Milena.i think...

Jon wrote: "I kind of pictured the Consensus as 'the sum is greater than it's parts'. "

Yeah, me too, until we got inside the consensus and saw it from the POV of Milena and the children. The children didn't seem to be part of the consensus so much as trapped by it. But perhaps you're right and only the upper level were truly part of the consensus and the children were there for reference.

I just can't help my mind niggling away at the science of the consensus: how can multiple consciousnesses fuse together, what would that really look like, how do the viruses actually work? And I don't think that's what Ryman wants us to actually be thinking about. I think for the purposes of the story the consensus is just a big metaphor for talking about socialism, freedom, love, and the difficulty of belonging while being an individual - all sorts of things! But not really how to model a giant shared brain!

Which makes it still an very interesting book, and still one of the greatest love stories I think I've ever read in SF, but not great science for a SF book. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7.

(view spoiler)[
So the end chapter of this first section was interesting. Milena and Rolfa almost getting together and then been split apart seemed a shame though still trying to figure out why they needed to.
So they have a new source of metal which should change things dramatically, in time. Or at least what's what it sounds like.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 8

(view spoiler)[
A shorter, faster paced chapter which was nice to see. Milena meeting Rolfa's mother was a interesting scene; the change between now and the earlier chapter was very noticeable.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9

(view spoiler)[
The virus is starting to mutate and now the whole of their society is starting to have to change to accommodate this. I thought this was an interesting chapter and is starting to finally help get me into the book and story.
(hide spoiler)]

Nick,

(view spoiler)[
Nick wrote: "Dammit *adds Divine Comedy to TBR ..."

My kids gave it to me this year as a Christmas gift. I just need to get some kind of 'reader's guide' to help me understand it.

Nick wrote:"It was the original unfixed Rolfa that emerged from the consensus when everyone was set free and joined with Milena.i think..."

Okay that makes sense. I couldn't figure out why Rolfa's spirit joined with Milena when I didn't think Rolfa was dead.

Nick wrote:"Which makes it still an very interesting book, and still one of the greatest love stories I think I've ever read in SF, but not great science for a SF book."

I agree. Even with a problematic ending I think the book addresses several issues in interesting ways and I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would when I started it. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 10.

(view spoiler)[
After chapter 9 and now this I feel the book and story is finally making progress and is now together and making a certain amount of sense. Still lots of odd ideas and and unknowns for now though.
Learning about what the Child Gardens really are and how they work is extremely useful. I was wondering when they'd have their use explained.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 11.

(view spoiler)[
This was a rather surreal and probably my least favourite part so far. It's setup for this big play but the semi-magical feel to bringing 'angels' and this odd space feel didn't work for me.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12.

(view spoiler)[
This was definitely a powerful chapter with Milena and Thrawn. The way I read this was Thrawn representing the established, virus heavy culture that they've relied on for so long and Milena being this power of change, which often involves destruction. I'm glad Milena actually stood up to her at the end of it as almost annoying to read about her being pushed around so much.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 13.

(view spoiler)[
I was surprised by her return from space so suddenly as she hadn't left at the end of the previous. I know it's not about going to space but making it flash by so quickly, didn't sit well with me really.
Milena has changed her outward attitude and now people are almost fearful of her due to her success and the changes that are sweeping through around her. The virus system collapsing at the same time is unfortunate as people could easily think it's due to her, the timing is remarkable.
(hide spoiler)]

Joe,

Regardin Chapter 12

(view spoiler)[One thing I didn't understand was that Milena was afraid to tell anyone in case they thought she was mad. The consensus or a snide could read her mind, but they could easily interpret her memories as false or hallucinations, so she needed external proof.

But couldn't they also easily read Thrawn's mind, and see at once that Milena was telling the truth? Why didn't Milena think of that?

Or did I miss something? (hide spoiler)]

Nick,

Interesting you say that.

(view spoiler)[
I had that same thought and am trying to figure out the why of it. Maybe it could be related to the virus system failing and it's now not functioning in the correct manner. In either chapter 12 or 13 we've got the whole people acting as animals thing and switching/overriding minds with others. It's a biological computer system so errors and the 'blue screen of death' equivalent occurring.
(hide spoiler)]

Oh that's interesting, I hadn't thought that those things might be linked.(view spoiler)[So you mean the consensus or snides are holding back from reading in order to prevent damage to them from the malfunctioning viruses? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Honestly, I find it easier not to read this as SF (how does it work? Is it plausible?) and instead I read it as literary fiction (what does this represent? what's the meaning behind this?).

I can't figure out how the viruses are supposed to work from a SF perspective, but from a literary perspective, I think it's talking about the dangers of conformity. The consensus, through viruses, is forcing people into conformity, everyone has exactly the same education, nobody is aware of any art or history that isn't virus-implanted. No deviant behaviour is possible.
So at the extreme, if everyone is the same, why wouldn't they be fungible, why wouldn't minds all swap about and overwrite each other?
If the consesus forcibly and violently breaks down the barriers of people's selves, then those selves become easily porous. Why not be a dog? There might even be something in there about the brutalising effets of conformity? Our humanity lies in our individuality maybe?

One the other hand, I don't think that approach helps me understand the Thrawn thing. (hide spoiler)]

Nick
(view spoiler)[
So far that's the impression I'm getting. They're preemptively trying to avoid a known computer virus as much as they can but it will still affect them as they work through people, being biological, so have to connect up.
Just checked and this was first published in 1989 so right on the edge before the Internet first became available on the mass scale it is today. Maybe predicting future trends and the virus as an analogy.
(hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[
Regarding the technology side of it, my immediate thought is an advanced nano technology that really works with people.

Considering the name, Consensus, and it's literal definition of a general agreement what you said makes sense. Harmony through oneness, in this case forced but without them knowing.
The virus is making, or possibly already made, humanity into drones. As a physical entity we move ourselves but our choices are not ours, they're dictated by an external pilot.
I'm thinking, the virus is non-sentient but will adapt to survive so it's changing humans to be less destructive; therefore it'll survive the ages.

Thrawn I'm still figuring out.
(hide spoiler)]

That's a much better understanding of the viruses than I managed. I like it; makes a lot of sense. :)

Chapter 14
(view spoiler)[
Curious chapter with it being set both before and after the previous one. So Thrawn again, this time slightly less weird and more understandable due to last few chapters. The virus system has broken down completely now if Thrawn can now use her holographic technology to hurt people and I’d suspect kill them. The virus should monitor and if not prevent it (which I get the impression earlier on it could have that power), it now doesn’t register what she’s doing to others as a unlawful act.
The angel part at the end of the chapter doesn’t make sense to me yet, just like the previous angel sections. I would assume, and hope, that by the end of the book things will be made clearer. Soon enough.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 15
(view spoiler)[
A very short chapter with Milena saying her speech. Seems to be artt and it’s origins as well as it’s place in the world and our society. Not much to say really.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 16
(view spoiler)[
Varied chapter again. Thrawn makes a return and finally reaches the point where she’ll be remade by the virus into something and someone completely different. Rolfa also makes a return and her newly remade self is so different. I couldn’t help but think of a computer system again; this time Rolfa’s new self being a pc getting re-imaged with reliable settings and programs.
Angels again. I’ve had a thought on what the angels could be but I’ll wait a chapter before saying anything.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17
(view spoiler)[
Milena has cancer. Only half surprised by that really. It was really good to learn about why the virus system had come into being and why it seems to have almost taken over.
(hide spoiler)]

Finished. Chapter 18 - 21
(view spoiler)[
Definitely an unusual ending.

The way I see the Consensus now is that the upper mind is a Hive mind made up of former living people who agreed that they would submit their judgement and decisions for the greater good of the Consensus and become part of something greater than themselves and last forever. The lower mind was everyone who didn’t want to submit their free will to this end and so they’re kind of stuck their. They’re still immortal as far as their minds are concerned but they can’t have the same access and freedom that being a upper mind gives.

I didn’t expect to see Rolfa turn up as part of this upper mind and communicate with Milena. It makes sense though as Rolfa had been read and I suppose that part of her mind, the one Milena loved, was removed and added to the Consensus which could be why she was so different towards Milena earlier on.
(hide spoiler)]

Joe, regarding the nature of the consensus at the end:

(view spoiler)[I was under the impression that everyone, upper and lower, was freed from the consensus at the end? I might be wrong.

I think I also saw the way the consensus read people a bit differently. I thought the consensus made a copy of a person. So Rolfa existed in the real world, and then a copy of her existed in the consensus. And then they gave her the virus to change the real world Rolfa. So her mind wasn't removed, it was copied, and then the original was changed.
I think part of the reason I thought that was because when Rolfa returns and has that conversation with Milena, it seemed to me that underneath the surface she still loved and wanted to be with Milena, she just couldn't express it, as if that part of her was repressed by the virus. I found the whole scene very painful and touching, because they were both yearning for each other and couldn't express it.

However, I found the book as whole good, but confusing, and I am abosolutely not confident that I understood any of it particularly clearly. (hide spoiler)]

Nick

(view spoiler)[
You're not wrong there. That's the way it used to work until the final breakdown at the end of the book. I phrased it poorly.

Ahh, I got that part all mixed up. A copy and then virus changed original makes sense, a weird sense in this case. The virus had suppressed that emotional side of her past; removing any negative thoughts for some sort of improved future maybe?

I'm the same. I liked the book as a whole but it was definitely not the easiest book to read. Very glad it was a group read with others.
(hide spoiler)]

Joe, yes, it's so uncertain:

(view spoiler)[Joe wrote: "The virus had suppressed that emotional side of her past; removing any negative thoughts for some sort of improved future maybe?"

Yes, I think something like that. Part of the ambiguity is that everyone talks about the virus as if it cures 'bad grammar', in this case lesbianism. But from what we see of Rolfa, it doesn't cure it so much as suppress it. Rolfa talks as if she's much happier and improved by the virus. But the misery in her eyes suggests that the virus has not improved her life, it has merely regulated it? But also, that scene was just vague enough that we might be wrong. Maybe she was improved and Milena is imagining some subtext that isn't there?

I can't decide if this is immensely frustrating or whether the uncertainty adds to the story. (hide spoiler)]

Nick, I definitely agree with that.

(view spoiler)[
I'm inclined towards thinking that Ryman left that open for the readers judgement, like "What do you make of it from what you have read" or " Can any one persons solo view be judged for something like this?"
(hide spoiler)]

Oh, a couple of other things that still completely baffled me by the end of the book:

(view spoiler)[The angels, what exactly were they? I am perfectly happy to accept that my understanding of physics is too poor to understand how they work. All I got was some idea that they were in the fifth dimension which means that they're made of gravity?

Where on earth did Heather come from and how did she get lodged in Milena's mind? (hide spoiler)]

Oh, one more!

(view spoiler)[In the future Earth is suffering from a serious materials shortage, which is the reason for much of the regession in living standards and lack of tech. The angels were travelling back in time in order to find metals in the past and send them to Earth to be used in making goods. I think the reason the electricity came back in was because those asteroids/metals had started arriving.

If that's wrong, then I've probably just missed something. But if that's right, why couldn't the angels send the metals back to arrive a little earlier so that they never went through the period of lack? (hide spoiler)]

End of book things.

(view spoiler)[
I can't remember if any of the angels have any physical contact with anyone? I can't remember them doing so it was purely words they used. If so then I would have to think they're minds from the virus system. Going by a few comments at the end it sounds like Milena is being given the chance to be one of them, an angel.

Heather could be a mind that escaped due to the virus malfunction?

I don't like this idea of angels going back in time to gain metals. It's a paradox which is something that always vaguely frustrates me.
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Angels

(view spoiler)[I've thought that the Angels were the weakest part of the book ever since I finished. The book says "another consciousness, a personality, imprinted on gravity, where thought and gravity are the same thing." Bob says he's from the Consensus with another personality, George, tacked on. I took that to mean that those personalities are the copies of the ten year olds from when they were Read. I thought this was confirmed at the end when the Consensus threatens the Read Milena to get with the program or end up as a silent partner like George. But Bob has memories of his wife and children which I would think happened after he was ten years old.

I totally forgot about the Angels mining for metals. How does a personality on a gravity line mine metals and transport them back?

The going back in time to mine metals is kind of interesting. The Angels travel via the light waves to get to the stars. They travel faster than light (although at one point it says that they travel at the speed of light) which is why they go back in time but I think you could argue that based on how much faster than light they travel and how distant the star is there is a limit to how far back in time they could travel. Chao Li Song said that they knew the Angels would do this before the Angels even existed because they "saw" the Angels coming back with blocks of metal.
A little more problematic for me was the implication that thought in the form of gravity had traveled back to the beginning of time and given the universe the jump start it needed to begin. That was the big paradox for me.

I never did understand where Heather came from. At first I thought she was a residue from a failed Read. But they never tried to "read" Milena until the end, right? I finally decided she had piggy-backed onto one of the viruses somehow. Which doesn't make sense but was the best that I could come up with. (hide spoiler)]