Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Henry James called The Blithedale Romance “the lightest, the brightest, the liveliest” of Hawthorne’s “unhumorous fictions.”

We'll have to wait to see if James was correct in that assertion. In the meantime, here is the place to post any other tangential references to the novel, Nathaniel Hawthorne, or the Brook Farm experiment that inspired much of the novel.

Brook Farm
Nathaniel Hawthorne was a founding member of Brook Farm, though he was not a strong adherent of the community's ideals. He later fictionalized his experience in his novel The Blithedale Romance (1852).

Nathaniel Hawthorne
Seeking a possible home for himself and Sophia, he joined the transcendentalist Utopian community at Brook Farm in 1841, not because he agreed with the experiment but because it helped him save money to marry Sophia. He paid a $1,000 deposit and was put in charge of shoveling the hill of manure referred to as "the Gold Mine". He left later that year, though his Brook Farm adventure would prove an inspiration for his novel The Blithedale Romance.

I won't be able to join you in reading this, unfortunately, but I wanted to say that this is a wonderful novel. Enjoy!

Okay, I've downloaded my free copy from Amazon. As soon as I finish The Trial, then I'm ready to go. ٩(˘◡˘)۶

For those reading the Penguin Classics edition (1986) with introduction by Annette Kolodny:
Tread carefully! The intro has some major spoilers. (Yeesh!)

Ashley wrote: "For those reading the Penguin Classics edition (1986) with introduction by Annette Kolodny:
Tread carefully! The intro has some major spoilers. (Yeesh!)"

Thanks for the warning.

Ashley wrote: "For those reading the Penguin Classics edition (1986) with introduction by Annette Kolodny: Tread carefully! The intro has some major spoilers. (Yeesh!)"

This is actually the version I'm reading, which I began reading on the 19th; luckily, I had a great English teacher back in high school who warned me to always read the introduction last. I have never regretted that advice.

Yes, I never read intro's first as there oft are spoilers and I find it more interesting to read after I have read the book anyway.

The introductions usually make a lot more sense after you have read the book, as well as avoiding spoilers.

Rosemarie wrote: "The introductions usually make a lot more sense after you have read the book, as well as avoiding spoilers."

Which makes sense, because after all they are always written by people who have read the book, usually numerous times.

This article briefly discusses Brook Farm and also talks a bit about the influence of Charles Fourier on the Farm. Since he makes an appearance in the novel, I thought it might be of some interest to those who may not want an in-depth exposition.

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/transc...

Just a note: if a first time reader downloads the free domain copy, it does not contain the oh-so-important preface (or at least my kindle version from Amazon did not). Here is the text, JIC.

http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/150/the-bli...

Ashley wrote: "For those reading the Penguin Classics edition (1986) with introduction by Annette Kolodny:
Tread carefully! The intro has some major spoilers. (Yeesh!)"

I add my thanks too, as this is the copy I have. I recently read Daisy Miller & the introduction in the copy I had really told the whole story including the ending. I was not happy to say the least!!! I don't know if I was nonplussed by the novella because of that, or it just wasn't a story that engaged me.

I happened to glance at last few lines of Blithedale near start of reading. Not bothered at all. Thesis: the more "classic" any work is, the less it can be "spoiled."

Genni wrote: "Just a note: if a first time reader downloads the free domain copy, it does not contain the oh-so-important preface (or at least my kindle version from Amazon did not). Here is the text, JIC.

http..."

Thanks for that, my Kindle copy (from Amazon) does not have the preface as far as I can tell.

Genni wrote: "Just a note: if a first time reader downloads the free domain copy, it does not contain the oh-so-important preface (or at least my kindle version from Amazon did not). Here is the text, JIC.

http..."

Thank you for the link, it'll be interesting to see how what the author sets forth as his vision in the preface will compare with the actual novel. I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work.

Clari wrote: " I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work. "

I have a negative feeling about Hawthorne, probably arising from deep in my junior high school years, so it will be interesting to see whether I like him now as an adult.

Fun facts about Hawthorne:
http://www.history.com/news/10-things...

I didn't find the spoilers in the Penguin version too bad. I am not a purist when it comes to this. Besides, whoever writes the introduction is one person's take on the book, my reaction to it is something else all together. There is some interesting historical information regarding communes in the 1840s. With the high-minded 1960s crowd they were popular as well. It will be interesting to see the parallels.

Hollyinnnv wrote: "Fun facts about Hawthorne:
http://www.history.com/news/10-things..."

Neat stuff. Thanks for finding!

Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: " I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work. "

I have a negative feeling about Hawthorne, probably arising from deep in my junior h..."

Is it the way he was taught at school? It is unfortunate how many people go off books due to the very classes that are supposed to introduce them to great literature!

Clari wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: " I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work. "

I have a negative feeling about Hawthorne, probably arising from de..."

I'm not sure Sylvia Plath is great, but she's on my list with Dickens as authors that school ruined for me. Thankfully, this is my first Hawthorne so I have no expectations either way.

Clari wrote: "Is it the way he was taught at school? It is unfortunate how many people go off books due to the very classes that are supposed to introduce them to great literature! "

Either that, or that I just wasn't ready for these books (boys' reading habits generally develop later than girls' do. But our English teacher "taught" the books in a very mechanical way. No real discussion of plot or character development. Mostly just trying to remember details to see whether you had read the actual book instead of the Classics Comics.

And things haven't changed much. My mother-in-law was a very highly respected high school English teacher who had taught Moby Dick several times in advanced English classes and could discuss the themes, meanings, nuances, characterizations, inter-relationships, etc. thoroughly. When she was on the school board the school got tied up with a program that gave the students extra credit for reading books and passing tests on them. She decided to see what the tests were like, so decided to take the one on Moby Dick as though she were a student. She re-read the book, then took the test.

And failed it. It wasn't at all about the meaning, themes, etc. Instead, it was filled with detail questions that no real reader would focus on -- which character smoked a briar pipe, which foot got entangled in the harpoon line in a given section, detail questions like that.

Whoever created a test on the little details of a novel instead of the themes, etc. did not know a thing about pedagogy. When I was getting my teaching degree, our instructor taught us about Bloom's Taxonomy-- which emphasized the importance of teaching analytical skills as soon as the students were ready for them, long before high school, in fact.

Oh, good grief about a test just about the details...as if reading was only to retain details and not what emotion, meaning , etc were felt, learned, and gleaned...such test developers do not understand literature..one does not read literature in the same manner as one might read a text book! Likely the love of books was never developed or lost as a result of those sorts of instructions/tests in too many cases...sigh.

Sue wrote: "Oh, good grief about a test just about the details...as if reading was only to retain details and not what emotion, meaning , etc were felt, learned, and gleaned...such test developers do not under..."

Well, I think the point wasn't whether the kids understood the book, but just had they read it. Which that sort of question will elicit even if all they did was read the words and turn the pages.

Yes, I think so too but of course...what is the point of making them read literature if not to learn to love to read to read it and gain a broader understanding of the word ...just commiserating with your mother in law...lol!

Chris wrote: "Ashley wrote: "For those reading the Penguin Classics edition (1986) with introduction by Annette Kolodny:
Tread carefully! The intro has some major spoilers. (Yeesh!)"

I add my thanks too, as thi..."

So I found another older addition at a used book store & decided to go with that one instead!

But Hawthorne is a writer where I love the words and the sentences, because they convey so much. At times, I could give a fig about his themes, but his capture of the nuances of humanity, of place, of character, of humor, of suspense and mystery -- do I often wish modern writers had those skills. In Blithedale, I am struck with the parallels with modern writers who play with memory versus actuality of a story, with the thoughtful sectioning of the work into chapters of a nice size to be read of a short piece of relaxation, of the parallels between the so-called "elite" and "others" of society. I am seeing both story-telling and writing skills at play.

Yet, the text does have more than a bit of an old-fashioned feel of that story in high school that we resisted as too far removed from the lives we were leading. Part of that is language and word choice, part is the allusions to other books and works of art (George Sands, Carlyle, and Fourier, rather than movies or video clips and games or Bob Dylan lyrics), part is the very living conditions. I've lived through many a New England (and elsewhere) snow storm. What a different, but recognizable, one Hawthorne transported me to experience. Even on so simple an aspect, no teenager could likely recognize the scope of the differences. Almost of lesser importance for the sake of the story is no telephone, let alone no cell phones.

Emma wrote: "Clari wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: " I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work. "

I have a negative feeling about Hawthorne, probably a..."

That's a pity you lost Dickens as his books cover so much of the human experience and contain such warmth, humour and tragedy. I've heard teachers say that they themselves go off the books though as they have to say the same things every year and try and force feed what has become basic test-passing to an unresponsive audience, rather than connect and discuss and inspire which is what they dream of doing.

Everyman wrote: "Well, I think the point wasn't whether the kids understood the book, but just had they read it. Which that sort of question will elicit even if all they did was read the words and turn the pages.
..."

That's a shame. We do some of that with our students to trip up the yahoos who are just trying to get by with Sparknotes, but even then our questions are not that picky. It's entirely possible to read a story with your full attention and genuinely not remember extremely minor details. I had a college professor who gave tests like that--nothing to do with any degree of literary analysis. I had read Jane Eyre three times and written a research paper over it, but I did NOT know what book Helen Burns was reading when she first met Jane. If you do, I salute you!

Everyman wrote: "Clari wrote: " I know very little about Hawthorne so I am looking forward to exploring him through this work. "

I have a negative feeling about Hawthorne, probably arising from deep in my junior h..."
Yes, I had the same experience. After The Scarlet Letter, I wasn't interested in Hawthorne. However, lately I've been reading a lot of 17-19th Brit lit, and I'm finding the Hawthorne a much better experience. He feels less pompous, more straightforward, and much more funny.

I was curious at the mention of Bloom's Taxonomy and looked it up. It looks like some of these teachers were testing students strictly on their knowledge of a reading assignment; stopping short of testing their comprehension.

I propose we go one step further into application by designing a Goodreads quiz about The Blithedale Romance that would allow the demonstration of the types of questions that you would like to see on a test. We are limited to multiple choice questions so essay questions would be excluded, but we can discuss those in the tea room.

During the final week of this book, If enough people in the group are interested, I will volunteer to collect 2-3 questions from everyone and compile the quiz. Just email your questions to me with 1 correct answer and 3 deviously worded incorrect answers, each. Maybe the moderators would want to sanction such a quiz and we can give it the cognomen*, "The Official C&TWC Blithedale Romance Quiz" (yes moderators, I am asking)

"How many times is the word "cognomen" used in The Blithedale Romance and is it a bit over the top? :)
a. 1 and yes.
b. 2 and yes.
c. 3 and yes.
d. 4 and yes.

David wrote: ""How many times is the word "cognomen" used in The Blithedale Romance and is it a bit over the top? :)..."

LOL! I laughed when I hit that one, and still haven't looked it up. Seemed as if I could make a good enough guess from the context!

You could make d. 4 and no????

Lily wrote: "LOL! I laughed when I hit that one, and still haven't looked it up. Seemed as if I could make a good enough guess from the context!"

Does this make it easier?
"How many times is the word "cognomen" used in The Blithedale Romance and is it a bit over the top? :)
a. 1 and no.
b. 2 and yes.
c. 3 and no.
d. 4 and no

David wrote: "Lily wrote: "LOL! I laughed when I hit that one, and still haven't looked it up. Seemed as if I could make a good enough guess from the context!"

Does this make it easier?
"How many times is the w..."

{g} Wasn't asking for ease, David. Just being facetious, that someone might make "no" a possibility! (I did go and check the definition -- which said meaning surname was the first definition. Hawthorne didn't seem to use it quite that way on p.29.)

Everyman wrote: "No real discussion of plot or character development. Mostly just trying to remember details to see whether you had read the actual book instead of the Classics Comics..."

Teachers here should correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard that the role of megadata algorithms being utilized now in education in order to meet some sort of standard/criteria for teacher evaluation as well as student evaluation has had a large influence on the type of testing done currently. Teachers teach and students learn in order to pass these tests, not to necessarily build concepts, critical thinking, understanding, or etc.

Utopias have been falling apart for millennia.

What Happened to Turkey's Ancient Utopia?
Turkey’s Neolithic city of Çatalhöyük may have been an orderly society built on tolerance and equality — until it fell apart.

http://discovermagazine.com/2016/sept...

Love reading the posts, I am always learning something new! Never have even heard of that city!!

Everyman wrote: "Utopias have been falling apart for millennia.

What Happened to Turkey's Ancient Utopia?
Turkey’s Neolithic city of Çatalhöyük may have been an orderly society built on tolerance and equality — un..."

This is fascinating reading. I visited Çatalhöyük 9 years ago, so interested to read about the more recent discoveries.

David wrote: "This is fascinating reading. I visited Çatalhöyük 9 years ago, so interested to read about the more recent discoveries...."

I would love to visit it. I read about it several years ago when I immersed myself in research on goddess-worshipping communities. It seemed like an ideal community--an absence of gender hierarchy, equality, celebration of life, a goddess figure with her heavy thighs and dolloping breasts that represented the high value placed on birth and support of life. I guess the new research calls some of those theories into question.
Either way, I've decided that when I grow up, I am going to study anthropology and archaeology and get my fingernails dirty while digging in the dirt for ancient artifacts.

When I was a kid, the Mayas were said to be gentle peaceful time-worshipping jungle dwellers. Then archaeology and manuscript decoding revealed all the wars and the human sacrifices. So I am skeptical of claims that the Catalhoyukers were peaceful and egalitarian--we really know very little about them.