Space Opera Fans discussion

Hi everyone and thanks for taking the time to read this. I am attempting to write a novel which has a blend of Space Opera Military with hardcore science fiction. I also have a dark theme tied into it which I wont go into here.

What I want to know is how much blood and gore is too much to take, I want to get the right balance of brutality of the [bad faction] and a good story. The [good faction] will end up having to do some really brutal things to win their freedom and in the end it may be hard to distinguish who is who anymore.

so far i have at least 2 graphic executions in the works with a possibility of a third which could end the conflict. however this third one is well towards the end of the book or even happen in a second book.

Thanks again for reading this bit of a rant.

Professor Bird Brain,

I suppose it depends on the method of execution.

one is a decapitation and the other is a blood eagle

but they both deserved it

Prof. wrote: "but they both deserved it"
Don't sound as if you are enjoying yourself too much.

I don't mind gore or violence if it is 'in tune' with the rest of the writing style and if it is an integral part of the plot.
Violence (and sex) just as a time filler is not acceptable and violence or pain described with such relish that I begin to suspect the author's motives is a real turn off and makes me feel a little queasy.

It is actually an integral part of the story, it isn't violence used as a filler. I personally cant stand that at all to be honest either, but when a story demands a level of gore like that I think it would be a lesser story if it were left out.

I haven't run across this type of thing in sci-fi but in Grimdark it is so overdone it feels cliché. As a debut author it's a gamble. Mark Lawrence got a lot of press for his inclusion of rape and violence in Prince of Thorns (although I didn't agree with the outrage).

My feeling is that Red Rising stuck the right balance of violence in sci-fi.

Prof. wrote: "Hi everyone and thanks for taking the time to read this. I am attempting to write a novel which has a blend of Space Opera Military with hardcore science fiction. I also have a dark theme tied into..."

My personal take:

Keep it down. If you produce a blood bath, only a sick portion of the reading public will be interested in it. One or two gruesome murders will paint the "bad guy" as being truly bad without grossing out the reader. A dozen, told in detail, will get the reader "down" and feeling bad about what s/he's reading.

I think if you could compare it to something we've read that would help. I'm trying to figure out if it's like the executions in The Green Mile or what...cuz while I loved that book it was a bit too graphic for me.

never read The Green Mile, ok i will put it this way its not walking dead kind of gore it is far toned down from that level, It is war gore aside from the two that happen in battle. Other gore is only alluded to kind of from a distance describing battle but defiantly not a blood bath by any means.

Thank you for responding everybody this has given me an idea of how much a reader can take.

"My feeling is that Red Rising stuck the right balance of violence in sci-fi."

Thats the feeling I was going for but the blood eagle scene although only two paragraphs long is a touch more brutal

I think the trick here is to hint without being too detailed. In the "Compleat Enchanter" series there is one passage where two characters are escaping from the giants, and they hear someone screaming, "No! No!", then they see what is happening, and the characters are unnerved by what they see, but it is never described.

This sort of thing is done in movies as well. Zeffirelli’s "Jesus of Nazareth" contains a scene of the massacre of the innocents in which most people think they see a soldier drive his sword through a child. In fact it never happens. What you actually see is the soldier chase the child out of shot then the shadow of his sword on a wall go through the shadow of the child.

In the original Star Wars we see the torture robot go into Leia's cell, then the door closes. Once again the viewer's imagination does the work.

The real trick here is to make the characters' reactions substitute for on-stage violence.

I think the right balance is to make people feel uncomfortable. I feel like it's more accepted in fantasy, though, which isn't exactly fair.

I remember being REALLY bothered by the scene in Gateway with the woman beaten by her boyfriend in front of a child. But it mostly bothered me because the author definitely did not indicate this was a bad thing. So I like your take that "they deserved it." And I also love books that you feel like both sides are kinda deplorable in the end. Because when it military all right or wrong?

Blood and gore doesn't really bother me, as a rule.

But I remember being a bit disturbed by the long, lingering descriptions of what the Ebola virus does to people when I read several years ago.

Heather wrote: "I think the right balance is to make people feel uncomfortable. I feel like it's more accepted in fantasy, though, which isn't exactly fair.

I remember being REALLY bothered by the scene in [book..."

The reasons why they get what was coming to them are explained and the story doesn't linger on the act so much, like i said the blood eagle scene is carried out by the hero so, it has to be told from his pov. Having said that I think that the readers could stomach it as its 4 or 5 sentences of gore and not even that gory in my opinion I had to tone it down for myself and I think it worked out for the best part.

As for seeing both side blurring the lines of acceptability I wanted to convey what actions had to be taken by them to secure their dominant power over each other.

I hope that this can clarify what I may have explained in a bad way.

R. wrote: "I think the trick here is to hint without being too detailed. In the "Compleat Enchanter" series there is one passage where two characters are escaping from the giants, and they hear someone scream..."

I see your point R, in the case of the blood eagle it is carried out by the hero so his pov is actually required in that case. But I will take the tips on board as I feel that will allow for somewhat deeper immersion of the reader if they can connect with the story and fill in the blanks with their own thoughts on some of the more gory parts.

The important question isn't "How much gore is too much gore" until you've answered the following question: "For what audience?"

You have two options as I see it: 1) write the amount of gore you're OK with to serve the story, or 2) clearly define what audience you're going for and tailor the gore to fit them.

It's like swearing. Some people/audiences blanch at a single F-bomb. Others watch a Tarantino film and gobble it all up giddily. Different strokes for different folks.

Micah wrote: "The important question isn't "How much gore is too much gore" until you've answered the following question: "For what audience?"

You have two options as I see it: 1) write the amount of gore you'r..."

thanks for the info, I actually never thought of who the target audience would be. Looks like I may have to make some decisions during the finishing of the first draft and editing then.

I would say at this stage it is aimed at adult hard core science fiction, or maybe military science fiction. It has elements of a space opera but I think overall it would be adults that would be suitable for.

Thanks so much for the response Micah

Micah wrote: "It's like swearing. Some people/audiences blanch at a single F-bomb. Others watch a Tarantino film and gobble it all up giddily. Different strokes for different folks."

This is very true. And it's the primary reason I stopped going to my local writers club - the place was filled with old people who'd have a fit at the merest "bloody" or "damn".

Myself and the younger members of the group (of which there were fewer and fewer each year) tried in vain to get it through tho them that - 'This is the way people speak now.' - but without success.

But that's another discussion for another time, I don't want to drag this too far off topic

Ronnie wrote: "filled with old people who'd have a fit at the merest "bloody" or "damn"...."

I think you should amend that a little. I'm old, and I have no problem with blood, gore, and the occasional expletive if it's all integral to the story. Why should age factor into it?

All age groups contain highly religious or otherwise sensitive people who object to anything they consider extreme, depending on who you personally hang out with. Your group may have been overly inflated with sensitive old people, but in general it has nothing to do with age. For my part, I'm sensitive to stereotypes.

My apologies for making such a broad sweeping generalisation, but that's the way things were with this club.

The older members (mostly in their 60s and 70s) turned their noses up at sci-fi and fantasy, not considering them to be "proper" writing.

Ronnie wrote: "My apologies for making such a broad sweeping generalisation, but that's the way things were with this club.

The older members (mostly in their 60s and 70s) turned their noses up at sci-fi and fan..."

It all depends on upbringing, and what we grew up reading. I read Science Fiction, and so did a lot of my friends. Others hated it.
And we should remember that most (if not all) of those frowned-upon words used in today's fiction were invented before most of us were born. So somebody used them way back then.

This is very true, yes. You walk past any school at break time, and you'll hear language that'd make a sailor blush. :)

Deciding your audience is kinda day one stuff for beginning to write anything (even academic papers). But you can easily fix this by reading what you wrote and figuring out who fits.

Over-used swearing just makes you sound lazy if there is too much. I think most of the people who read science fiction, now, don't mind a bit.

But each person has their hang-ups. I have trouble with older science fiction due to the ridiculous sexism. I think if people were honest with themselves, they'd realize those books were not meant for women to pick up!

Well as for deciding who it fits I skipped that and just dove right in to allowed the story to write itself.

It is still being written now so far just surpassing 70k words, so I will read through it after I feel like I am finished and see what the story says about an age group. Having said that, because of the violence I wouldn't advise that children to read it unless they were late teen 16+.

Thanks for all the helpful advice everyone this helps more than you could know.

It all depends on whether it moves the story forward. It would be hard to write The Texas Chainsaw Massacre without a lot of gore. OTOH, Mary Poppins probably would not have worked if Mary had hacked Bert to pieces and stuffed him down one of his chimneys.
From your precis, it seems that the violence is necessary to the theme of conversion. The idea that violence begets violence occurs everywhere from Martin Luther King, Jr. to the Gospel of Matthew. After all, not many authors are bloodier than Grimm's fairy tales.
However, a separate question is how descriptive you want to be. There is a difference between hacking someones head off with a sword and spending 3 pages describing the pulsing spray of arterial blood and how the person's final breath whistles out of the ragged end of his severed trachea. That is between you and your audience.

Thanks Andrew, well as I said it is moving the story forward. It is actually the first thing that the reader is introduced to in regards to my main character going down this path of rebellion.

I wouldn't subject a reader to unnecessary gore like you describe with a 3 page long description of arterial blood spatter and whistling breath, that is for a different genre in my opinion.

But a murderous Mary Poppins does sound like a good side project lol.

I actually did write the story. Turns out that too much sugar causes impulse control issues. But I never could get Disney to option it.

Andrew wrote: "I actually did write the story. Turns out that too much sugar causes impulse control issues. But I never could get Disney to option it."

LOL. It would make a great fan fiction id bet.

Prof. wrote: "...I actually never thought of who the target audience would be. Looks like I may have to make some decisions during the finishing of the first draft and editing then. ..."

Well ... don't forget you have the choice of "option 1" as well (write the amount of gore you're OK with to serve the story)!

I don't define my audience or write to them. I write for me, and just assume that there might be some other people out there with similar tastes. I can't be responsible for how each reader reacts to my books, as that is between them and the text. I'm out of that picture. I'll surely offend some people. But I look at it like this: If I got to know them, they'd probably offend me somewhere along the line too. So we're even.

I guess the real trick is to somehow learn not to love your own creation so much that you lose sight of what's effective and what's excessive. Self-criticism is important. But I'd advise not being so sensitive that you lose sight of your vision as a storyteller.

That makes a lot of sense Micah and thanks for the great advice. I just wanted to get a feel of what other people and fans of the genre are comfortable with more than anything. I personally have a high tolerance of violence the walking dead has that effect I guess.

Also I feel that it is important to stay true to the message I am trying to deliver in it's purist form possible. Thanks again this has helped me more than you could know.

I guess the question you ask for yourself is - are you trying to get many readers, or writing just for your own self fulfillment. The reason I answered your question was because I got the impression that you care about having an audience.

Well Heather I do care about having an audience because if I am lucky enough to get my book published the traditional way it will require that.

But I am also in part writing this story for myself, mainly as a challenge to myself in fact. Either way I am hoping that people will enjoy it.