The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Great Expectations
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Chapters 55-56
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Mod
Have we finally evidence of Pip’s becoming more mature and able to feel for other people?"
Or has he simply finally developed the beginning of a sense of guilt?
I don't, frankly, see this as being more mature; what else would he do with his time since has no money and no job, but has on his conscience the realization that he has been, if not the direct cause, at least the indirect cause and agent of Magwitch's death. If he had been more astute that night at the Ship, or had made more careful plans, realizing that Orlick knew his plans and would certainly, having escaped, convey them to Compeyson, he could have made very different plans for Magwitch's escape, but he didn't. And now he has to live with that, and at least he is mature enough not to simply wash his hands of Magwitch and walk away, but that's not real maturity but something even a responsible child would do.
Mod
Totally self-centered and horribly inconsiderate. What good is it going to do Magwitch after this length of time? He can't go visit her, Pip doesn't offer to find her and bring her to him, Magwitch can't send any support to her, Pip certainly isn't going to tell Estella that her father is a criminal who deserted her and is now about to be executed without ever seeing her unless she comes to this horrible, filthy, disgusting prison which Pip will never let Estella do. And indeed Pip doesn't tell Estella. So all Pip does is open up old wounds in Magwitch that have no chance of being healed before his death.
What on earth is Pip's motive, other than pure selfishness, and what on earth does he think the benefit to Magwitch will be knowing that he his daughter lives and is known to Pip but he will go to his death never getting to see her or hold her hand or kiss her or even say he's sorry or he loves her or do anything for her that a father naturally would want to do for a daughter he had lost twenty years ago.
It's just another example of how clueless about human emotions and needs Pip is. And I certainly hope that Estella never sees him again, and certainly doesn't ever marry him, because even she doesn't deserve a life tied to Pip. That would be even greater cruelty than she deserves.
Mod
It's a pity that Magwitch and Joe never got to know each other. They're the only two major characters in the book I can genuinely respect -- well, no, I'll add Wemmick in as a third -- but they are both down to earth, salt of the earth, live your life the best you can and let what happens happen, people. Magwitch may indeed be a criminal, but I think Joe would have seen through that to the basic goodness beneath, and I think they would have gotten on well together. I would have liked to seen Magwitch move to Joe's village (did we ever learn its name?) and settle down there in some craft, and he and Joe would get together in the Three Jolly Bargemen of an evening and drink a pint and smoke their pipes together and be content in each other's company.
I do feel that Pip has developed some maturity. There are many people who would welcome no job in order to have the opportunity to lie in bed all day but not to spend time in a nasty prison with a prisoner 'on death row'. When it comes to his apparent 'blurting out' about Estella I was a little less forgiving. I think that he expected Magwitch to be delighted that she might spend her life with Pip. I don't think that it occurred to him otherwise. I was certainly willing him not to say it!
Oh Everyman I love that idea of Magwitch and Joe having been friendly. They really seemed to have the potential for being really good friends. Alas, we shall never know, but that would have been a very nice tying-up of ends for Dickens, neither would it have been beyond the realms of possibility.
Mod
When our old headmistress decided to go to another school - by the way, we were richer for having lost her -, she said she did not do this because she was dissatisfied with her career chances at our school but that she had personal reasons. And then she explained her personal reasons in detail before the whole staff. This brought me to the conclusion that she was being insincere because, as I said to my colleagues, everyone who had real personal reasons would leave it at that, not divulging them in front of strangers, because they were ... personal. Someone, however, who felt that he was prevaricating would feel the need of makiing their personal reasons seem water-tight and would therefore expound them to the extent of embarrassment for everyone concerned.
My colleagues said I was to distrustful, and I said they were too naive ;-)
Mod
Everyman, if I didn't know better I'd think that Pip owed you money. You're just determined to see the worst in him! I had the completely opposite reaction to Pip's telling Magwitch about Estella. In my mind, not knowing is the worst -- whether it be a diagnosis, the outcome of something, whatever. If one has the facts, one can move on. I thought it was a kindness for Pip to tell Magwitch that his daughter was alive, well, and loved. I imagine Dickens thought so, too. Magwitch was probably haunted all those years about his daughter's supposed death, and the pain and fear she must have suffered. And imagine thinking the woman you loved killed your child! Killing an adult in a jealous rage is bad enough, but there's a special place in hell for someone who would kill an innocent child. So I think Pip's news brought him peace he must not have felt for two decades. You argue that Pip was selfish to tell him -- in what way does it serve Pip?
As to Magwitch and Joe being kindred spirits, I agree. Remember when Magwitch was captured early on?
"So," said my convict, turning his eyes on Joe in a moody manner, and without the least glance at me; "so you're the blacksmith, are you? Than I'm sorry to say, I've eat your pie."
"God knows you're welcome to it - so far as it was ever mine," returned Joe, with a saving remembrance of Mrs. Joe. "We don't know what you have done, but we wouldn't have you starved to death for it, poor miserable fellow-creatur. - Would us, Pip?"
Even at the time, it struck me what a friendly exchange this was. Certainly not the way we'd expect a hardened criminal to behave, nor the way most victims would respond. Unlike Pip (so far), both men know themselves and have made peace with their lot in life.
Mod
I also have the same view as both of you do. If anyone wishes to know just what I was feeling during this chapter, just go to Everyman's posts and re-read them.
As to Pip telling Magwitch about his daughter, it was pointless. I don't know his reason for doing it unless he thought it would make Magwitch feel better knowing the boy he has loved and worked and saved for will take care of his daughter, at least he must think that. Whatever his reason, Magwitch dies about a minute later, so it couldn't have been to traumatic for him either way.
Mod
If I didn't know any better I would think your headmistress was somehow related to our family. My sister is the "worst" for it. I can't tell you how many times and began a sentence with the words "ok, I have something I must tell you, I promised I wouldn't tell anyone, so you can't mention it to anyone else." Somehow this doesn't seem to me like she is keeping her promise. I do though, even if I did feel the need to tell others the story, which I almost never do, I wouldn't because of her promise. Now my daughter is starting to do the same thing. At least it is usually about some person that I barely know having an affair with another person I barely know, and I have no desire to spread the news anywhere.
Mod
Mod
It is the worst, if you know there's something to know which you don't know. But if you don't know that you could and should know a particular something which you don't know, as is the case with Magwitch, it's probably not very bad. And that's why I think that Pip took an unnecessary risk when telling Magwitch about his daughter.
Mod
You're a nut. And absolutely right in this case, except I just keep my mouth shut and listen. It's easier that way.
Mod
"The placid look at the white ceiling came back, and passed away, and his head dropped quietly on his breast."
Chapter 56
John McLenan
1861
Text Illustrated:
"The number of the days had risen to ten, when I saw a greater change in him than I had seen yet. His eyes were turned towards the door, and lighted up as I entered.
“Dear boy,” he said, as I sat down by his bed: “I thought you was late. But I knowed you couldn’t be that.”
“It is just the time,” said I. “I waited for it at the gate.”
“You always waits at the gate; don’t you, dear boy?”
“Yes. Not to lose a moment of the time.”
“Thank’ee dear boy, thank’ee. God bless you! You’ve never deserted me, dear boy.”
I pressed his hand in silence, for I could not forget that I had once meant to desert him.
“And what’s the best of all,” he said, “you’ve been more comfortable alonger me, since I was under a dark cloud, than when the sun shone. That’s best of all.”
He lay on his back, breathing with great difficulty. Do what he would, and love me though he did, the light left his face ever and again, and a film came over the placid look at the white ceiling.
“Are you in much pain to-day?”
“I don’t complain of none, dear boy.”
“You never do complain.”
He had spoken his last words. He smiled, and I understood his touch to mean that he wished to lift my hand, and lay it on his breast. I laid it there, and he smiled again, and put both his hands upon it.
The allotted time ran out, while we were thus; but, looking round, I found the governor of the prison standing near me, and he whispered, “You needn’t go yet.” I thanked him gratefully, and asked, “Might I speak to him, if he can hear me?”
The governor stepped aside, and beckoned the officer away. The change, though it was made without noise, drew back the film from the placid look at the white ceiling, and he looked most affectionately at me.
“Dear Magwitch, I must tell you now, at last. You understand what I say?”
A gentle pressure on my hand.
“You had a child once, whom you loved and lost.”
A stronger pressure on my hand.
“She lived, and found powerful friends. She is living now. She is a lady and very beautiful. And I love her!”
With a last faint effort, which would have been powerless but for my yielding to it and assisting it, he raised my hand to his lips. Then, he gently let it sink upon his breast again, with his own hands lying on it. The placid look at the white ceiling came back, and passed away, and his head dropped quietly on his breast.
Mindful, then, of what we had read together, I thought of the two men who went up into the Temple to pray, and I knew there were no better words that I could say beside his bed, than “O Lord, be merciful to him a sinner!”
Are the two other men in the room supposed to be the governor and the officer? They look like ghosts to me.
Mod
Very clever. I must remember this strategy.
Mod
Chapter 56
"He had spoken his last words"
by F. A. Fraser.
c. 1877
Text Illustrated:
"The number of the days had risen to ten, when I saw a greater change in him than I had seen yet. His eyes were turned towards the door, and lighted up as I entered.
“Dear boy,” he said, as I sat down by his bed: “I thought you was late. But I knowed you couldn’t be that.”
“It is just the time,” said I. “I waited for it at the gate.”
“You always waits at the gate; don’t you, dear boy?”
“Yes. Not to lose a moment of the time.”
“Thank’ee dear boy, thank’ee. God bless you! You’ve never deserted me, dear boy.”
I pressed his hand in silence, for I could not forget that I had once meant to desert him.
“And what’s the best of all,” he said, “you’ve been more comfortable alonger me, since I was under a dark cloud, than when the sun shone. That’s best of all.”
He lay on his back, breathing with great difficulty. Do what he would, and love me though he did, the light left his face ever and again, and a film came over the placid look at the white ceiling.
“Are you in much pain to-day?”
“I don’t complain of none, dear boy.”
“You never do complain.”
He had spoken his last words. He smiled, and I understood his touch to mean that he wished to lift my hand, and lay it on his breast. I laid it there, and he smiled again, and put both his hands upon it."
Mod
"Magwitch under Sentence of Death"
Chapter 56
Harry Furniss
1910
Text Illustrated:
"The sun was striking in at the great windows of the court, through the glittering drops of rain upon the glass, and it made a broad shaft of light between the two-and-thirty and the Judge, linking both together, and perhaps reminding some among the audience how both were passing on, with absolute equality, to the greater Judgment that knoweth all things, and cannot err. Rising for a moment, a distinct speck of face in this way of light, the prisoner said, “My Lord, I have received my sentence of Death from the Almighty, but I bow to yours,” and sat down again. There was some hushing, and the Judge went on with what he had to say to the rest. Then they were all formally doomed, and some of them were supported out, and some of them sauntered out with a haggard look of bravery, and a few nodded to the gallery, and two or three shook hands, and others went out chewing the fragments of herb they had taken from the sweet herbs lying about. He went last of all, because of having to be helped from his chair, and to go very slowly; and he held my hand while all the others were removed, and while the audience got up (putting their dresses right, as they might at church or elsewhere), and pointed down at this criminal or at that, and most of all at him and me."
Re: the Furniss drawing... what the hell?! Furniss must be the same one who did that giant zombie caricature of Miss Havisham. Ghastly.
Mod
I had the completely opposite reaction to Pip's telling Magwitch about Estella..."
Yes, Mary Lou.
I too think Pip was right to tell Magwitch. Magwitch is going to die. He does not know the fate of his daughter. If he cared at all about Estella's welfare he would be happy that she is alive and that Pip, the person he likes most, loves her. Now, if Pip knew some horrid secret, or even obvious truth about Estella that would worry, upset or sadden Magwitch, not telling Magwitch would have been the right decision. I see little harm in Pip sharing the happy truth with a man who is about to die.
This opens the door again to whether Pip was justified in revealing Wemmick's secret life to Jaggers. That action is, in my opinion, more of a transgression between friends.
Pip stimulates more contrasting opinions and insights than any other character I can think of in any other novel. While we have our like - dislikes of Little Nell and others, those opinions are not in the same league as our thoughts on Pip.
Soon we will come to the last words of GE. There will be much to reflect upon.
Peter wrote: "I too think Pip was right to tell Magwitch."I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. When it comes to Pip, Peter, I think you and I are crying in the wilderness! (And if memory serves, I think Ami might be pro-Pip as well?) We are a distinct minority!
Mod
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. When it comes to Pip, Peter, I think you and I are crying in the wilderness! (A..."
Well, either we are in the wilderness or we must lead the others to the promised land.
Mod
Oh my, Mary Lou. I feel I must withdraw almost all my praise from Furniss. I used to like his work but your word "ghastly" sums this one up perfectly. It is horrid.
Now, I do like the John McLenan. As to Kim's question I think the two figures could be the governor and the officer. Perhaps they looked faded or ghostlike to suggest how their presence has become a mute point. Magwitch will die without their agency being required. Perhaps they are faint in order to focus our attention first on Magwitch and Pip. They are the centre of the scene, and, in many ways, the focal point of the novel. Thus, we are first directed to their meeting at the bedside. The faded figures are there to suggest the omnipresence of the law. The law is always in the background and rules our lives, be our lives good or bad.
Mod
Chapter 56
Harry Furniss
1910
Text Illustrated:
"The sun was striking in at the great windows of the court, through the glittering drops of rain upon the gla..."
And of course, and always, thank you Kim. You are the star atop our reading tree. A true Startop.
Mod
Pip's great expectations have taken yet another hit. First, his hopes of Miss Havisham being his benefactor have been squashed and in this chapter any thought of Magwitch being of any help from beyond the grave have evaporated as well.
We find, however, that all of Pip's expectations have not been lost. Pip does receive some expectations in the offer of being a clerk for Herbert. That means, of course, that Pip's expectations are coming as a result of Pip's own earlier kindness and his focus on another person. Pip's first anonymous gift of funds to set Herbert up in a position, and then his request of Miss Havisham to also favour Herbert are now paying dividends.
The great irony is, of course, the fact that Pip's expectations, as humble as they may seem, are literally coming from himself. It is his kindness to others that has directly lead to his being offered a position. Pip has, in effect, become an apprentice not to anyone else, but rather to himself. What a stroke of narrative technique from Dickens.
In these two chapters we also encounter another major motif. The marriages of Wemmick to Miss Skiffens and Herbert to Clara are marriages of love, founded on mutual caring and nurtured through patience and time until their unions could occur. In contrast, of course, we have Pip who still loves Estella but is unable to marry her because she is already married. Thus, what his friends have gained through patience, Pip has apparently lost. Pip has neither the grand expectations he had wished for nor the love he had naively anticipated.
Mod
That's a fair point, but I hadn't seen any indication in Magwitch that he had, after 20 very hard years, any remaining thoughts about a daughter he might seldom if ever seen. If he had any concerns about her, he had plenty of time to mention them to Pip. But he does not -- as Pip says to Mr. Jaggers:
"“And on what evidence, Pip,” asked Mr. Jaggers, very coolly, as he paused with his handkerchief half way to his nose, “does Provis make this claim?”
“He does not make it,” said I, “and has never made it, and has no knowledge or belief that his daughter is in existence.”
So what is the benefit to him in disturbing whatever peace he has made with the past?
Wemmick's advice, I think, was right on.
"“For whose sake would you reveal the secret? For the father’s? I think he would not be much the better for the mother. For the mother’s? I think if she had done such a deed she would be safer where she was. For the daughter’s? I think it would hardly serve her to establish her parentage for the information of her husband, and to drag her back to disgrace, after an escape of twenty years, pretty secure to last for life."
Mod
Well, you can't lead us there because we're already there waiting for you to join us. [g]
Mod
Pip is lucky that he doesn't live in today's US. Under the principle of civil forfeiture, the government would probably try to "claw back" the money that Pip gave Herbert since Magwitch's money was forfeited as soon as it was repatriated.
Mod
A stroke of genius, indeed! And you have pointed it out very nicely, Peter - so nicely that it once more shows to me the value of reading these quite-often read books together with my Fellow Curiosities!
I'm surprised that Pip's telling Magwitch about his daughter is such an.issue. It seems like such a heartfelt gift to a dying man who is clinging to his notion that he engendered a gentleman. I see it , coming after the Sentence of Death, as a well-received Sentence of Life...as least, the possibility of a legacy. Can anyone argue that this is not music to Magwitch's ears?
Mod
Not me. I agree with your position that telling Magwitch was a good decision.
Mod
Mod
Me too.
Mod
How about if Pip were to tell Estella who her real parents were? If Magwitch should appreciate knowing about his daughter, why wouldn't you expect the daughter to appreciate knowing that her father was a convict executed for coming back to England but not to see her?
That one is easy, Everyman. One person is dying, the info is the last thing he hears, and indeed, the teller knows it was appreciated because the dying man presses his hand. The other person has the rest of her life ahead of her.
Mod
But the dying has no use for the information. The living would.
Everyman wrote: "But the dying has no use for the information. The living would."Magwitch wasn't dead yet. I think Pip's information made his final moments happier. And there's a big difference between telling Magwitch, "Your daughter is alive, beautiful, and loved" and telling Estella, "Your dad's a convict and just died after being pursued by the authorities."
Mod
Is this a risk worth taking?
Good question, Tristam. I was relieved too when Magwitch pressed Pip's hand, so methinks there IS a valid argument, whether or not Pip should tell him.
Mod
I'm surprised this is an issue too! I thought the gesture of telling Magwitch about his long-lost daughter, whom he had thought viciously killed by his wife long ago, was beautiful and it brought a lump to my throat. Where was the harm in telling this to a dying man, to put a lovely final image in his mind? We know that such is what he most desired - to "make a gentleman" - so to know that somehow, someone had also made his own daughter a "lady" must have been balm to his soul.It's irrelevant whether Estella would be told (and we assume not, surely?) because it is stressed throughout this chapter that he will not live very long at all - and the moment at which Pip tells his news is carefully chosen. Magwitch looked different; it was clear he was dying.
No, what I have a vague trouble with is the coincidence of it all. But then if that troubled me overmuch I wouldn't be reading Dickens, would I?
I found this chapter exceptionally moving, and the words used by Magwitch so poignant.
So ... at some point are you going to count up the Curiosities' "Fors" and "Againsts" telling Magwitch?
Mod
True. He gets away with coincidences that no modern author would dare try to write. But somehow he pulls it off.
Here we learn that Magwitch’s trial cannot begin right now because the Crown has to produce one of the old hulk wardens as a witness as to Magwitch’s identity, the only other witness being most likely drowned. We also learn that Jaggers has taken up the case, although he knows it to be hopeless, with the view of making matters as easy as possible for Magwitch – in other words, with a view to procrastinating the course of events so that Magwitch might be spared the shame of execution but can die from his injuries.
It is during these days, which – as we learn – Pip exclusively spends in the presence of Magwitch, as far as he is allowed to, that Herbert has to take leave from his friend because he has to go to Cairo on business. Herbert has a bad conscience about leaving his friend, and he offers him a position as a clerk, with the prospect of one day becoming a partner. Pip, however, has not time at the moment to consider this offer because he is all focussed on Magwitch.
We also witness the rather original wedding of Mr. Wemmick and Miss Skiffins, in which Pip acts as the best man. So, at least, Mr. Wemmick is provided for.
Chapter 56 centres on how Pip accompanies Magwitch through his last days and through the trial he has to face. It is a rather touching chapter, full of nice details, like Pip’s holding Magwitch’s hand throughout the trial. It could have come off as very sentimental and Little-Nellish, but Dickens is no longer the sugar-monger of The Old Curiosity Shop and has managed to give more depth to his descriptions. Just consider Magwitch’s words here:
Have we finally evidence of Pip’s becoming more mature and able to feel for other people?
Or what can we say about Magwitch’s words to the Judge?:
Dickens also seems to have intended some criticism of the death penalty in this chapter, seeing how many people receive their death sentence and how they react to it. The final scenes of this chapter, Magwitch dying in peace, and even the representatives of the authorities respecting it, are especially moving. What, however, do you think of Pip’s decision to tell Magwitch that his long-lost daughter is still alive, wealthy and respected and that Pip loves her?