Gay Science Fiction discussion

Bruce in the group read thread asked for recommendations for gay scifi that isn't fantasy or romance, and Kaje pointed out we need a recommendations thread, so here it is. What kind of gay scifi book are you looking for?

I hope people can come up with some books for Bruce - I know more fantasy than SciFi outside of the romance genre...

I highly recommend Anna Butler's Taking Shield series - amazingly detailed military space opera. Don't look for easy solutions here, though, or quick resolutions. Nothing comes easy in this series, lol.
Gyrfalcon

Angel wrote: "I highly recommend Anna Butler's Taking Shield series - amazingly detailed military space opera. Don't look for easy solutions here, though, or quick resolutions. Nothing comes easy in this series,..."

I love this series so far. I read the first two last year, and just picked up books 3 & 4, but I've decided to reread 1 & 2 so I can get the whole experience at once.

Her steampunk book The Gilded Scarab is one of my all-time favorite reads.

Asked Anna the other day when book 5 is coming. Can't for the life of me remember what she said.

Perhaps he'd like The Merro Tree? I don't know that I'd say "no romance" when describing it though, the romantic elements aren't the focus of the story but it's there, though it's between a humanoid alien and a snake alien so a bit atypical. It's an amazing book that is more about art and censorship rather than the usual romance tropes.
It was published as general science fiction and (as someone who's been reading scifi since age 9) it reads as scifi more than as a romance novel, at least to me.
Only problem is it's not easy to get, it's out of print and not available as an ebook so used copies are your only option, I'd give my left arm for an epub copy. :(

Ethan of Athos is awesome and funny, with only a hint of future romance.

And I just noticed we're answering Bruce's question instead of the question Charming asked. Oops.

Angel wrote: "And I just noticed we're answering Bruce's question instead of the question Charming asked. Oops."

Well his request is the first question on the thread; leaves it open for the next person to post when they are looking for something specific. I think that's the goal, rather than general discussion, right? Let us know if you want recs and we'll brainstorm?

I love Anna Butler's books. They are great reads, but can be classified as Romance, even though the romance is secondary.

I liked Aristoi. The main character is not really gay, more bisexual, or poly, but he has a baby with a man.

Charming wrote: "Bruce in the group read thread asked for recommendations for gay scifi that isn't fantasy or romance, and Kaje pointed out we need a recommendations thread, so here it is. What kind of gay scifi bo..."

I think rejecting romance scifi is an error. Many hetero scifi I've read would be classified as mm-romance if the main character was gay. You are missing a lot of great scifi stories, with really complex world building, and interesting ideas, if you reject mm-romance scifi.

Pepón wrote: "I think rejecting romance scifi is an error. Many hetero scifi I've read would be classified as mm-romance if the main character was gay. You are missing a lot of great scifi stories, with really complex world building, and interesting ideas, if you reject mm-romance scifi. ..."

Excellent point, I was trying to think earlier of books that don't have romance full stop and even among het novels the "the guy gets the girl" endgame or whatever variation of somebody gets the opposite gender person of their choice is usually a sub thread even in straight-up scifi/fantasy.

Kaje wrote: "Angel wrote: "And I just noticed we're answering Bruce's question instead of the question Charming asked. Oops."

Well his request is the first question on the thread; leaves it open for the next p..."

I am often obtuse - that makes sense :)

Aerulan wrote: "Pepón wrote: "I think rejecting romance scifi is an error. Many hetero scifi I've read would be classified as mm-romance if the main character was gay. You are missing a lot of great scifi stories,..."

I'm not sure Bruce was rejecting SFR - I think he was just asking for recommendations of gay SF that weren't also romance. Probably the SFR is a little easier to find. :)

Angel wrote: I'm not sure Bruce was rejecting SFR - I think he was just asking for recommendations of gay SF that weren't also romance. Probably the SFR is a little easier to find. :)..."

I was referring to Pepón's remark that many straight scifi novels would be classed as mm-romance if the protagonists were switched to be gay, which is a valid point I think, there's a default perception that if the romantic elements are straight they're acceptable as simply part of the story (and not central unless written specifically to be a romance novel), but if the characters are gay those same elements would make it "gay romance" and are considered what they story is about.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true - I can name you more M/M SciFi that are full on romance (complete with on-page sex) than I can non-romance SciFi with gay MCs, or straight SciFi that focuses that heavily on the relationship, especially with on-page sex content. While that may be a reflection of my tastes, I don't think it's incorrect to say there is a significant subset that is M/M romance first, SciFi second, or at least equal measures, and that we could use a wider swath of less-romance-focused books with LGBTQ MCs. (Or perhaps that I also could use exposure to those books. Without in any way rejecting the delightful M/M stories.)

I hesitate to respond to responses to my original response (that's a mouthful), but I felt obligated to explain so we don't get bogged down on my one comment any longer.

It's entirely possible to have elements of romance, scifi, mystery, political activism, fantasy, gender equality... in one novel. My original request was to have the book FOCUS on the scifi rather than just have a fantasy/romance novel set in a future reality (which seems to be the case with a lot of books I've read under the classification of "scifi").

With that stated, I'll stop answering my own questions and let the group decide what it wants to do.

Bruce

Some of the scifi books with gay elements I've read, and liked:

Ancillary Justice it is very difficult, if not impossible, to know if one character is male or female, as the narrator does not consider it important, and refers to everyone as "she". After a while, I stopped trying to guess the gender, and just thought about everyone as male ;) --except where the thing was clear.

Gyrfalcon is a great scifi story that has been classified as romance, in spite of not having even a HFN ending. One of those books I was talking about above. Also from Anna Butler, The Gilded Scarab is a really good steampunk novel; even tending a little bit towards the romance side, the world-building is well done.

In Heaven and Earth Loved this short book; and it's free! It is a romance, but the science fiction is great: grey goo, evolution of nanomachines, a little cyberpunk, a space station that has to be saved. Great stuff.

Bone Rider A very interesting take on a meeting with an extraterrestrial and running from the crazy, evil, military scientist. The romance part is somewhat different from what we are used to.

Both Hemovore, and Infected: Prey take tropes from urban fantasy (the first one vampires, the second one shifters) and introduce them into science fiction, transforming them into illnesses. In the Infected series, where the echoes of the AIDS crisis are really strong, the scifi elements make a nice background for the detective stories.

Aristoi The main character is actually more pansexual than bisexual, but he does have a baby with another man. Anyway the main focus is on the scifi story, with interesting takes on internet/cyberpunk and its possibilities, daemons, and the evolution of an aristocratic society in the distant future.

There are a couple other I liked, but I'll leave it here. Hope it helped you find something interesting.

Bruce wrote: "It's entirely possible to have elements of romance, scifi, mystery, political activism, fantasy, gender equality... in one novel. My original request was to have the book FOCUS on the scifi rather than just have a fantasy/romance novel set in a future reality (which seems to be the case with a lot of books I've read under the classification of "scifi"). "

Ah, I had interpreted your request as "without romance" rather than "primarily scifi." I have seen this question a lot before, and I am wondering if it would be useful to add a shelf specifically for "primarily scifi." We tried to accomplish that by subtraction (e.g. if a book is listed as a romance scifi, or a paranormal scifi, that's not what you are talking about. Also gay fic scifi was generally considered to not include romances. But now I am thinking it isn't quite working.

In fact, I am going to add the shelf now. We can rework later if it isn't helpful. Everyone feel free to comment and suggest.

Okay, I added a shelf called "SF is the Primary Focus" and put a few likely looking books on it (nothing with bare chest on the cover for starters). I am not sure the shelf called Gay Lit Scifi actually serves any purpose since it has a bunch of romances on it. So I choose the most descriptive name I could think of.

Please add relevant books. And help me think of a better name if possible!

Pepón wrote: "Some of the scifi books with gay elements I've read, and liked:

Ancillary Justice it is very difficult, if not impossible, to know if one character is male or female, as the narrat..."

Pepón, I would sooo appreciate it if you added these books to the group bookshelf and put them on the right shelves. Instructions here:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

There is a difference between a romance book and a book with romance in it. I generally see most books having a romance subplot to some extent. That being said, I haven't read a lot of gay scifi yet, so am eagerly waiting to see what pops up!

*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and you guys are killing it! Feel free to skip. Ha!

Hey everyone-

I'm (somewhat) new to the group— and glad!— to be here. I’ve been following discussions, but have not made any comments yet. So, hello! This thread has evolved into questions that have been on my mind since finding the M/M romance genre. Being a sci-fi fan and a Romantic, I’ve wanted to read a scifi novel that has a romance between two male protagonists since I was a kid. For example (using a movie we may all know as a reference), The Empire Strikes Back has a romance as a key element. So, what if the princess were a prince? We’d have a M/M romance in a “primarily science fiction” story, which Charming defined as— appropriately, I think— "SF is the Primary Focus.” Han and Leia’s romance is a sub-plot, or part of the main plot, depending on your interpretation. If the story had just been about Han's (and a prince's) romance, then I think our story would be on the "SF is the Primary Focus" book shelf? I think Han and Leia’s romance is part of the movie’s main plot as they are MCs, but I’m a Romantic, right? I’m still waiting for Mr. Darcy in a spacesuit. But I digress. ;)

My point is that I’d love to read a scifi novel where two men are in a romance story arc, yet with a great plot written in the style of Atwood, Azimov, Bova, Cherryh, Herbert, Mitchell, Niven, Robinson, Varley, Vinge, Willis {insert favorite scifi author here}. Pepón made a great point about the double-standard between scifi with a M/F romance vs. scifi with an LGBTQIAPK romance. (I think that’s as many letters we have so far.) ;) Scifi novels with an M/F romance are categorized simply as “science-fiction.” Scifi novels with an M/M romance are “GAYYYYY science fiction.” For example, Dick’s “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep”/Scott’s “Blade Runner” is considered straight-up science fiction. Full stop. Write/cast a guy as Rachel, and it’s ÜBER-GAY science fiction romance. (BTW, how cool would that have been? Casting suggestions?) And don’t even get me started on the double-standard with sex scenes. I mean, if NYT Bestselling Author Nora Roberts was writing M/M, the exact same sex scene would be considered gay erotica. Scandalous. Publishers beware! {eye roll}

Everyone, thank you for all your suggestions and lists! There are many books I haven’t read. For the purposes of the discussion (now, ya’ll, don’t be upset with me for using the sub-genre of fantasy as an example here), do folks think that C.S. Pacat’s Captive Prince may be close to what we’re discussing? In the context of the thread, it might be considered “Fantasy is Primary Focus?” For those who have read it, is it too romantic for what we’re talking about? I bring it up because it was published by Penguin and was well-reviewed, even though it has some very hot sex scenes. The protagonists don’t have “da gay sex” until well into the trilogy. (Mid-way through Book Two, if memory serves.) The series is well-written with lots of intricate plots, character development and world building. I don’t usually dig fantasy, but it was a joy to read for many of the reasons readers mentioned in the thread. I think it may have been a breakthrough novel in M/M romance, especially those with a sub-genre as its primary focus. I hope so!

Aaaaaanyway, I apologize again for the length of this post. You all have made such good and thoughtful points that I got fired up! I have no answers; I just know what I want to read. A freakin’ hardcore sci-fi novel that has two dudes falling in love that isn’t “Love’s Savage Secret In Spaaaaaaace... ” Of course, it goes without saying our most awesome MCs get an HEA!

If you’ve got this far, congratulations, and thanks for reading! –James

PS- Hilarious...
Charming wrote: "Okay, I added a shelf called "SF is the Primary Focus" and put a few likely looking books on it (nothing with bare chest on the cover for starters)."

NAVET wrote: "*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and you guys are killing it! Feel free to skip. Ha!

Hey everyone-

I'm (somewha..."

Thanks for this! I too have been lurking for some time, but this discussion is something that's finally got me interested.

I always seem to struggle finding that type of story I actually want to read (primarily sci-fi), and groups like m/m really don't offer suggestions as to where to find such reads.

I recently finished the Lacuna Chronicles (books 1-4), and although the element of romance exists, the focus is on the plot.

I crave more books like these! Characters with complicated life stories, novels with intricate storylines, and well-developed universes... I know that someone must be writing them! lol.

I'm hoping that this thread will shine some light on more sci-fi books with queer elements!

NAVET wrote: "*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and you guys are killing it! Feel free to skip. Ha!

Hey everyone-

I'm (somewha..."

Yes! That's exactly how I'm felling.

The thing is that I understand perfectly why we are where we are. Scifi is generally, and historically the domain of the Geek, this means generally a young white heterosexual male. So that is what scifi stories cater to. Gays and women are just a minority, inside the geek minority, and to write for them brings no money. This has been changing, as more women have been entering scifi literature, and you can clearly see the changes in YA literature towards including queer representations. But we are still not there.

On the other hand, m/m romance has been having an enormous success, and if you include a romance between two male characters, then you can sell your story to the m/m-rom crowd. So, whether you are selling your sf with gay characters as an mm romance, or you are adding a mm romance subplot to your scifi novel to sell it better, the result is the same: all of a sudden, you are not selling your work to a few gays and women interested in gay science fiction, you are selling to the enormous market of women interested in romance novels and maybe you will be able to convince some of the geeks we are talking about additionally, if your novel is good enough. The result is what we have now.

Examples? I've already mentioned Gyrfalcon (doesn't even have a HFN, even though this may change later in the series) and Infected: Prey (the main story is about the virus and his detective work), but I could also mention Whyborne and Griffin, Books 1-3: Widdershins, Threshold, and Stormhaven, it is fantasy/horror, and the relationship between Whyborne and Griffin is not the main focus, even though it is an important part of the plot. On the other side, novels like Agatha Christie's Tommy and Tuppence mysteries (The Secret Adversary, Partners in Crime, etc.), are never thought of as romance novels. I've even had people offended when I mentioned that Pride and Prejudice is a romance novel. :D

Sorry for the long text. I'll stop here.

NAVET wrote: "*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) "

Nah. We're readers here. Good comment!

I tend to reach for the romances, not because I necessarily need sex or romance in my books, but because I really need a happy ending - and romances guarantee that. When I read fanfic gen, I have to look at the tags very carefully and read some comments if I'm not sure, because they might just kill someone off or have everyone catch an incurable disease. :-(. And scifi is definitely prone to that.

I do feel that if a book is a romance and scifi (or romance and fantasy or whatever) it should be good at both aspects. I am just as annoyed to read a thriller with a dumb, tacked on romance as I am to read a scifi romance with a dumb, tacked on alien.

Lena wrote: "I crave more books like these! Characters with complicated life stories, novels with intricate storylines, and well-developed universes... I know that someone must be writing them! lol."

So many people crave that. I suppose they must be way harder to write.

Charming wrote: "I am just as annoyed to read a thriller with a dumb, tacked on romance as I am to read a scifi romance with a dumb, tacked on alien. "

This ^^ - I love books where both elements are integral to the story. I find a lot of fantasy and paranormal doing that well, not so much SciFi - some of the best blends IMO are Claimings, Tails, and Other Alien Artifacts series and Chaos Station series. In both of those, the plot and romance are both essential and integral to the story, and the books could not stand if either element was lost.

Pepón wrote: "NAVET wrote: "*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and you guys are killing it! Feel free to skip. Ha!

Hey everyone- ..."

Thank you for adding a bunch of books to the bookshelf! I put a couple of them on the fantasy-paranormal-scifi shelf, because some people really don't want any hints of paranormal in their scifi.

Hi Lena!

Thanks for replying! I too crave these novels—and I believe folks are writing them. Pepón addresses just that (and why these books face challenges with publishers) in his response below yours. Would love to hear your thoughts on his post as well!

Yeah, M/M can sometimes be difficult to navigate for the type of books we want to read. I certainly identify as a member of the community for sure. I just want to make that clear at the outset because I don’t want folks to think I’m a snob and don’t like the genre. I love M/M, and it’s opened my imagination to stories where I don’t have to sublimate myself as a heroine to fall in love with the hero.

In addition to the spot-on things you mentioned (“characters with complicated life stories, novels with intricate storylines, and well-developed universes… ”) I think—and here’s the snobby part—that we have to address the quality of writing. There’s an entire spectrum of M/M authors who’s writing skills could be considered everything from gay-literature to… well… not having very good writing skills. This comment is not about genres, or sub-genres. From M/M contemporary to M/M erotica (and everything in-between), if the author has an ability to write well, it can make or break an M/M romance that “turns me on.”

So, here’s my question: Is the quality of writing an element of what we are defining as a “good” book that is “primarily” a certain sub-genre? I’m not sure, but I am sure that I want to read M/M romances that are well-written. And please don’t get me wrong. I don’t have to read a M/M romance that’s gay-lit, just written well. I like a good “bodice ripper” now and then. (What would be the dude version of that? A “jock-strap ripper?”) I just want that jock-strap to be ripped off in skillful detail. Ha!

Thanks for the recommendation for the Lacuna Chronicles. The description sounds great!

-James

Pepón wrote: "Scifi is generally, and historically the domain of the Geek, this means generally a young white heterosexual male." 


“YAAAAAAS!” lol

Pepón, you are touching on points that I wanted to address in my post, but I felt like I was going to subject folks into reading a treatise. (“Hi, you don’t know me, but let me hold you hostage for the next 30 minutes.”) Ha!

So, first, Pride and Prejudice is not a romance?!? I loathe this argument.

Old-white male, erudite professor voice: "Pride and Prejudice" is not a romance. It is a microcosm of financial obligation, simply told from a female point of view, so that the reader can remain objective, as women were not in the male world of finance at the time, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera…”

Blech! It’s a sweeping romance, and I watch the 2005 film every year at the holidays. (I know, right? Soooo gay.)

Okay, the geek-thang. Perfect. I love how you pointed out that scifi is owned by “young, white-hetero males,” or as you described it, “the domain of the Geek.” I’m sure many of us joined that club albeit, by default just so that we could experience the genre. I know, I did. Yet always the outsider.

When I was reading your reply, a movie trailer came on TV. Although a movie, and not a book, I think it might apply to breaking into “the domain.” As I’m sure you know, the first female-led superhero film will be released in about a week. Wonder Woman has a lot of pressure to perform. Can a “girl superhero movie” (even a good one) breach the domain of the Geek? Will it challenge studio perceptions that there isn’t an audience for a “superhero chick-flick?” (That was in the NYT. Kid ya not! Annoying.) Will the film be able to expand superhero movies’ demographic? I hope so. I hope Wonder Woman kicks freakin’ male butt and shatters that particular box office, glass ceiling. I’m looking forward to the film. She was one of the first comics I collected. In the third grade, her comic opened a world where a woman was unapologetically powerful (“bullets and bracelets, yo!”), had more of a moral compass than Superman (arguably), and glided on air currents (pretty!). LOL I, and many of my gay, geek friends— who eventually created “a domain of our own”— are going the first weekend. Not just because we want to see the movie (Chris Pine as Steve Trevor? Uh, hello!), but because we want to give the finger to male-dominated Hollywood. “Dooooon’t fu*k with me, fellas! This isn’t my first time at the rodeo.”

Female leads are important. The domain of the Geek, as white, straight, hetero-male, keeps us all down, including m/m romance. Tearing down the domain’s wall is incremental, but we now have Diana, along with Jyn Erso, Rey, and the groundbreaking Ripley. Changing the young, white, hetero male domain with our m/m stories- in whatever genre/sub-genre- brings participation, validation and representation. BUT (big but), you are correct, we aren’t there yet, especially with a balls-out queer romance. I’m getting tired of describing celebrated LGBT minor characters as “progressive” and “daring” when they are the “best friend,” or the stereo-typical “gay clown.” For me, this is why m/m romance is so important. I am my own man and am no one’s clown.

So, there! (Damnit.) ;)

“With great success, comes great conundrums.” You’re right. M/M romance has exceeded publishers’ expectations, yet our stories are still regulated to small imprints, or self-publishing. Your description of the catch-22 of finding an audience for the type of novel we all want to read was incredibly insightful. There isn’t just a struggle for our “primarily science fiction” m/m romance stories to be published, but our stories to be read at all. Bring a sweeping m/m romance that is built in a hard scifi world to a Scifi Book Convention, hosted by our good friends in the domain of the Geek, and you are a cheezy, gay, Harlequin-romance writer “with an alien tacked on.” It comes with all the derision of how jocks treated geeks in high school, but now the geeks are the jocks because they’re straight. So… you go to a Romance Book Convention with your sweeping mm/romance built in a hard scifi world, hosted mostly by straight, female authors/readers, and you are a fan-boy, geek science fiction writer “with a tacked-on romance that’s gay anyway.” Even if your novel is really, really good, do straight, romance readers want to read Nicholas Sparks in a scifi world? Does the domain of the Geek want to read Larry Niven with a gay romance? Where’s the audience? I think there is one, and I think it’s larger than we (and publishers) think.

Thanks for more reading rec’s! It’s interesting how folks on the thread have organically begun to recommend books outside of the science fiction genre into other sub-genres. The qualifier seems to have become “is primarily {insert sub-genre}." Could it also be related to the quality of the writing? I addressed this question in my response to Lena’s reply above. Would love to hear your thoughts on this!

Thanks for the awesome reply. Great convo!

-James

Charming wrote: “Nah. We're readers here. Good comment! … I tend to reach for the romances, not because I necessarily need sex or romance in my books, but because I really need a happy ending - and romances guarantee that.” 

“Hellooooo, Mr. Chahhhming… At last!” ;) Thanks for being cool with the length of my first post. I was thinking, “Charming’s going to kill me!” Ha!

I’m glad you zeroed-in on your interpretation of what is “primarily science fiction.” I think we all may have our own definition of what we mean by “SF is the Primary Focus.” (Excellent term btw!) Since we are all participating in defining the bookshelf, we will all have our own interpretations and shades of meaning which is great.

My definition mirrors yours. In the books I want to read, I prefer the romance to be the elemental driver of the story. An HEA is critical for me. I want a romance story arc which must have an HEA. However, in the context of our favorite sub-genre, the romance must, must, must be in a science fiction novel replete with worldbuilding, rich characters, detailed descriptions, and no “insta-love,” thank you. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)

So, I guess the books I would gravitate towards first on our “SF is the Primary Focus” bookshelf, would be an elemental romance set in a science fiction universe; instead of, a science fiction story with romantic elements. Does that make sense? I mean, I'd read anything on that shelf! :D And, of course, it goes without saying that the writing needs to be top-notch.

-James

Ps- I liked your “tacked-on” phrase. I used it in my response to Pepón. ;)

NAVET wrote: "Pepón wrote: "Scifi is generally, and historically the domain of the Geek, this means generally a young white heterosexual male." 


“YAAAAAAS!” lol

Pepón, you are touching on points that I wanted..."

Personally, I've always been partial to Storm, one of the most powerful mutants in the Marvel universe. She's a goddess. ;-)

I concur with you and Charming, HEA is one of the main reasons I read mm romance. It stresses me out to go into a book not knowing if the main characters are going to survive. And I can stomach all the angst and disgraces if I know that everything is going to be OK in the end. Yeah, I'm a wuss.

Lena wrote: "So many people crave that. I suppose they must be way harder to write."

Agreed.

Pepón wrote: "Personally, I've always been partial to Storm, one of the most powerful mutants in the Marvel universe. She's a goddess. ;-)"

Well, they both have good hair. And we all know that's critical for female superheroes. ;)

If you're a wuss than so am I. I have enough angst in wondering if my dates are going to be okay in the end. (Oh, wait. That didn't come out right.)

NAVET wrote: "So, here’s my question: Is the quality of writing an element of what we are defining as a “good” book that is “primarily” a certain sub-genre?"

So, yeah, I think that talking about these kinds of issues in the m/m world can come off sounding somewhat snobbish, but I agree that is kind of needs to be mentioned when talking about "good" and "primarily" such-and-such a genre.

I've found that many books published under the genre "m/m" regardless of sub-genre, remind me painfully of fanfiction. Now, I'm not bashing fanfiction, as I was quite a prolific reader and writer in my day, what I am talking about is the lack of editing (both for content and quality). It seems like lots of m/m publishers don't really put forth the effort to edit m/m as it should be, for whatever reason.

This lack of editing before publishing (whether published by a house or self-published) has led to a severe drop in the quality and a drastic rise in the quantity of m/m books available.

Unfortunately, this trend seems to have pushed out those books of higher quality, probably due in part to the monetary issues mentioned by Pepón.

This leaves us with a dismal choice of book-- between well-written, but hard to find novels with the type of writing and storyline that actually makes us invested in the book, and quick, poorly written (but probably still enjoyable for their own reasons) romance that we can finish in a few hours and forget about the next day.

It's pretty problematic, but I don't really see it changing as the top priority of publishers is making money-- if they're able to sell work that is poorly written to a large market with little effort for the same price as books that are written for a niche audience but require more money and time... well...

I think this is true in many genres, especially as Amazon's algorithms push harder and harder toward self-pub and small publishers go out of business, leaving authors to decide if they can pay $800 for editing on a book that may earn $1000, and small pubs not able to afford high-end professional editors either (or not able to pay them to spend as much time as they should per book). And with M/M, there really are no big trad publishers to balance the small, as there are in mainstream SciFi (although some small pubs are very good.) How much really schocky cozy mystery is out there? I've picked up more than my share. M/F romance... don't get me started. Fantasy? There too. I haven't read as widely in SciFi, especially self-pub, but I bet it's an issue as well. The elements that are bleeding cliches vary, but poor editing is common, and I think we're always sorting through the derivative earn-a-buck variants. The other big difference is that M/M tends more erotic, so the exploitative reuse element there is gay sex, and yes, perhaps that fanfic and slash is a more common lead-in to the genre, letting people begin from a less critical vantage point.

Kaje wrote: "I think this is true in many genres, especially as Amazon's algorithms push harder and harder toward self-pub and small publishers go out of business, leaving authors to decide if they can pay $800 for editing on a book that may earn $1000"

That is a really good point. And it's one of the reasons I beta read in this genre - but I'm not an editor.

I just wanted to add (re: geeky stuff being a domain of white cishets) that there's been a significant shift towards diversity - hence the Puppies backlash at Hugos, and the whole of Gamergate horribleness. But big, mainstream award-winning SFF published by big mainstream houses has more and more queer protagonists, like the aforementioned Ancillary Justice series, books by John Scalzi and Chuck Wending (including IP like Star Wars). NK Jemisin, Martha Wells, Ian McDonald, James SA Corey's The Expanse and probably way, way more that I can't list not being as up to date as I'd like to. Progress! :)

NAVET wrote: "*I SO apologize for the length of this post. (“Rude.”) ;) I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and you guys are killing it! Feel free to skip. Ha!

Hey everyone-

I'm (somewha..."

Hi everybody.
This is my first post here since I started following the group a long time ago…I think is the second or third time the discussion catch my eye. I just read this comment by NAVET and I just totally identify with it… the reason I write is because after reading NAVET comment I feel like finally someone said why I wanted to read since I started reading M/M “A freakin’ hardcore sci-fi novel that has two dudes falling in love that isn’t “Love’s Savage Secret In Spaaaaaaace” LOL I couldn’t put it in better words but that is. Any recommendation is greatly appreciated.
By the way I think the closest I have read to my ideal Sci-Fi romance novel are The Sci-Regency Series by J. L . Langley and Ethan de Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold

(PS: English is not my first language so please excuse my mistakes :-) )

Those are very different books - the Langley is basically Regency Romance in space, with a big focus on the romance. The Bujold is world-building and adventure around a gay character, with the faintest hint of romance. To me, they kind of bookend the entire range of possible M/M SciFi. What do you like about them? Characters? Setting? For something like the Bujold, maybe Knight Errant; for something a bit more like the Langley, maybe Gravitational Attraction or Chaos Station

Lena wrote: "This lack of editing before publishing (whether published by a house or self-published) has led to a severe drop in the quality and a drastic rise in the quantity of m/m books available. Unfortunately, this trend seems to have pushed out those books of higher quality, probably due in part to the monetary issues mentioned by Pepón."

Hi Lena!

I hadn't thought of this point. I think you're hitting the nail on the head with "The Why" we can't find these novels. Bottom line: It's all about money, right? An author spends 6-9 months (maybe even a year), writing a speculative fiction m/m romance. The writing is top notch. Of a quality that could be published by a house (say scifi/fantasy publisher Tor). Most editors— if not all— won’t touch it because it’s m/m plus romance. All of the “Domain of the Geek” that Pepón wrote about in one of his posts above. (If folks who are reading this missed that post on this string, be sure to read it!) ;) So… our author has little options, but to self-publish, or go with an m/m imprint.* (That’s totally fine. I love our trailblazing m/m imprints!).

*Important caveat: Just because an m/m romance is published by an m/m imprint does not make it any less better than novels published by a big house. I (as I’m sure many of us here) are so thankful to Dreamspinner, Riptide, Loose ID, Samhain (now closed I think), and all the other brave folks who have put their heart and souls into publishing our stories. Flip side: It’s just that with a big house, there is an expectation that there will be a certain level of writing, and it would be less “hit, or miss” finding the kind of novel many of us on this string have mentioned that they would like to read.

I think Dreamspinner Press may be trying to address what we’ve been discussing here by starting their boutique imprint DSP Publications. From their press release for its launch, it kind of read (to me anyway) that it might be a place to publish the type of novel we’re disusing as one of their goals. Dreamspinner is certainly a trailblazer in m/m romance publishing. One of their books was my first read in this genre. So, kudos to them and to all the bold m/m romance publishing houses!

As I wrote in an above post, I think C.S. Pacat’s Captive Prince Trilogy published by Penguin are the only m/m romance novels published by a big house. I wonder how it performed financially? Does anyone else no of another m/m romance published by a big house? Just curious which big house are publishing m/m romances.

Great convo!

Alex wrote: "I just read this comment by NAVET and I just totally identify with it… the reason I write is because after reading NAVET comment I feel like finally someone said what I want to read ..."

Hey Alex!

Thanks for joining the conversation! Obviously, you are super smart. You did like my comment after all, so... HA! Kidding, people. Just kidding.

Or am I...? ;)

Aaaanywho, you mentioned you are a writer. Awesome! What are you working on? Is it m/m romance? Which genre? Are you writing flash, short, novella, novel? (Inquiring minds!) Please, don’t feel obligated to answer. It’s just always great to meet writers who write sweeping, epic romances between two men.

Oh, be sure to check out Charming’s “SF is the Primary Focus” bookshelf!

A quick note: apart from Captive prince Penguin Random House publishes also KJ Charles (The Society of Gentlemen series) and American Harper Avon Impulse publishes Cat Sebastian's historicals. There's a solid amount of M/M YA out there, like Carry On by Rainbow Rowell (Macmillan) or The Love Interest by Cale Dietrich (Feiwel & Friends). Plus, the American Carina (Harlequin's digital first) publishes M/M romances together with their het ones, from Aleksandr Voinov (first published by them years ago) to Annabeth Albert (just now).

Kaje wrote: [insert entire post here]. LOL

In particular, Kaje wrote: "The elements that are bleeding cliches vary, but poor editing is common, and I think we're always sorting through the derivative earn-a-buck variants."

Thank you for your post. It was not only insightful, but I appreciated your unapologetic take on small publishers and big trade pubs in m/m romance. When writing about the desire of readers to have books of quality (as “quality” is defined in many of the posts above), I feel like I have to apologize for “putting down” the small pubs who publish our stories. I fear that I may sound erudite. (Like I just did!) Ha! You wrote plainly without having to justify, or apologize for, your opinion on the nature of books pervading the marketplace with “clichés, poor editing and derivative earn-a-buck variants.” (Homer Simpson voice: “Damn Amazon algorithms…”)

The state of m/m reminds me of early gay cinema. It was bad, but LGBT folks still watched it. It was the only thing we had that fulfilled that empty space... that longing to see ourselves... "... to hold, as 'twere, the mirror up to nature," as Shakespeare said. <-- (Now, that was erudite!) HA! It took a while, with rare exceptions in-between, to get a Shelter, or Brokeback Mountain. Even those films are exceptions with only one considered mainstream. (“Gay cowboys! Aren’t we so progressively cutting-edge that we want to see high altitude gay sex? C’mon, honey, dinner and a show!”) <über-gay eyeroll>

M/M fiction, in whatever category, has a long slog. Mainstream publishers must wonder if there will ever be a large market (i.e., mula) for m/m romance. Hell, I’m not sure if the genre could go mainstream. It’s not like we’ve had a slew of mainstream, gay movies since Brokeback, and it was nominated for a gazillion Oscars. Pubs probably factor in the projected numbers of how many LGBT folks are readers in a population that is 10-15% of the overall population. How many straight women read the genre? We know it’s a lot, but that must be hard to quantify, n’est-ce pas ? (Okay, now I'm just be annoyingly ridiculous.) ;)

There’s also Pepón’s fanboys in the “Domain of the Geek.” Would they read a scifi novel that they would normally love, but with the love of two men central to the story. They have a hard enough time with m/f romance in the genre. Even if there is a romance, it’s still considered straight-up scifi. Full stop. We covered that ground in the thread as well. And don’t get me started on double-standards.

This was going to be a short post! Ha! Basically, Kaje wrote in one sentence what would have taken me three long paragraphs to write. Oh… It. Just. Did. Joan Crawford voice: "Daaaaammiiiiiiiiiiiiit...!”

I think you may be missing a ton of good M/M, if you think this is the state of the genre. Searching on Amazon by best seller will bring you to a fair bit of very heavily-tropey (often gay-for-you) genre writing. Because the genre is expanding, and the people it is expanding to are often M/F romance readers. They have been raised on the standard tropes and constraints of genre romance, and the books that appeal at first are often those which combine those tropes with a lot of hot gay sex. Writing quality comes second to that opening infatuation. It's always interesting to see new readers evolve over time to wanting more book and less plot-irrelevant sex, more different story lines and less boy-meets-boy.

If you look beyond the array of the AZ bestsellers (despite some very good stories mixed in there), there is a huge array of M/M that is well written and well edited, with thoughtful plots that do not just rehash standard tropes.

I could list you a hundred M/M I would put up against the best genre fiction in other genres - not literary fiction, because that is a different art form, but as good as the top Fantasy best sellers, for instance. The genre is neither as young nor as bereft of quality as you suggest.

As for the genre going mainstream, Romance industry publications have not failed to note that it is the fastest growing romance genre, by a good margin. The interest in Captive Prince, and KJ Charles, is the beginnings of that shift. But at the same time, Amazon's near-monopoly on distribution is not making big publishers brave about branching out, as they find their profit margins pinched and threatened.

This topic is, however, tangential to the purpose of this thread - finding good gay SciFi that fits someone's particular requests. Perhaps if it is to be discussed further, a different location might be appropriate? I hate to clog a request thread.

Kaje wrote: "Those are very different books - the Langley is basically Regency Romance in space, with a big focus on the romance. The Bujold is world-building and adventure around a gay character, with the fain..."

Yes! My Fair Captain by Langley was my first book in the m/m romance genre. I googled "science fiction + gay romance books." And viola, Violet! I've read them all. Lots'o fun! Personally, even though it's the lowest rated book in the series (and not off-planet), I enjoyed the last book (#3) My Regelence Rake. I always thought Colton was the hottest brother even though he was a minor character in the first two books. And he's a wise-ass alpha. A trope I like. Although Langley did some worldbuilding, I wish there had been more. I'll check out Bujold for sure. (Thanks for the rec.)

What I'm really looking for is the sweeping romance, similar to Langley, but set in a scifi universe with as much worldbuilding as our favorite scifi authors. I want to get lost in another world so badly... Where the air on an alien planet tastes different, where a spacecruiser is described in detail, where complex exocultures define our characters' belief systems. Worlds like Rama, Mars, Arrakus, Gaia, Ringworld, Hyperion, Robot-Empire-Foundation, [fill in favorite world here]. And dudes falling for each other despite the forces in these worlds trying to keep them apart.

(sigh) Yeah, all that.

Tiferet wrote: "A quick note: apart from Captive prince Penguin Random House publishes also KJ Charles (The Society of Gentlemen series) and American Harper Avon Impulse publishes Cat Sebastian's historicals. Ther..."

Hi Tiferet!

Thanks for passing on these titles and publishers! I've had this question for a while!

(Shortest. Post. Ever.) ;)

NAVET wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Those are very different books - the Langley is basically Regency Romance in space, with a big focus on the romance. The Bujold is world-building and adventure around a gay character, ..."

That book sounds awesome! When are you going to start writing it and can I proofread for you? :)