Retro Reads discussion

There saw I first the dark deceptions
Of Felony, and all the counterplots;
Cruel anger, red as any coal;
Pickpockets, and eke the pale Dread...

Oh, this is where I am! Sorry I'm so bad at buddy reads, I'll meet you all here xx

Katherine sat on a sunny stone bench in the Inner Court near the old keep, lending an indulgent ear to the happy shouts of the children as they romped through the courtyards.

Thoughts so far, Kiri Fiona?

My main thought is I'm obsessed with John of Gaunt. So far this is one of those books that has me flicking over to Wikipedia every few pages to learn more about this time in history. I'm soaking it up like a sponge! Have you finished the book, Hana? I'm in that awkward I want to talk to everyone about this book but nobody I know has read it phase.

I know that feeling! I'm into Part Four. I'll take all my comments off "Add to my Update Feed" and let's talk :)

Starting with that whole chapter with Katherine going to London. Wow. Great romantic scene with John in his bedchamber. I'm right at the point where Constanza arrives!

I got a bit confused about the succession and where the Earl of March and his two year old son Roger Mortimer fit in the picture. Inevitably this family tree has spoilers.

I still do not understand Roger Mortimer's claim to the throne. Seton says in Chapter17 that his claim came through his mother. Why? Here are all of Edward III's children.

More from Wikipedia on Edmund: The position of the young earl [Edmund Mortimer, 3ed Earl of March], powerful on account of his possessions and hereditary influence in the Welsh marches, was rendered still more important by his marriage on 24 August 1369 at the age of 17 to the 14-year-old Philippa, the only child of the late Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, the second son of Edward III.

Lionel's late wife, Elizabeth, had been daughter and heiress of William Donn de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster, and Lionel had himself been created Earl of Ulster before his marriage. Edmund inherited the title Earl of Ulster on Lionel's death.

Therefore, the Earl of March not only represented one of the chief Anglo-Norman lordships in Ireland in right of his wife Philippa, but Philippa's line was also the second most senior line of descent in the succession to the crown, after Edward, the Black Prince and his son, King Richard II of England. John of Gaunt, younger brother of Prince Edward, had become the 1st Duke of Lancaster and thus the source of the House of Lancaster's claim to the throne.

*sigh* I'm just going to have to roll with it.

Hana wrote: "Starting with that whole chapter with Katherine going to London. Wow. Great romant..."

One of my favourite scenes was after Constanza arrives, and they're eating in the great room. The way Katherine watches every little nuance of their interactions really puts you in a place where you can feel her insecurities. I know that mistresses were a sad fact of life, but I couldn't help but feel sorry for Katherine throughout this.

What I'm really enjoying throughout this book is that Katherine isn't a perfect character. She's flawed and jealous and insecure, but she's doing the best with what she's got, and I'm enjoying this journey right alongside her.

Have you started at the beginning again, Hana?

Hana wrote: "I got a bit confused about the succession and where the Earl of March and his two year old son Roger Mortimer fit in the picture. Inevitably this family tree has spoilers.
"

I could be way off, but I thought Roger fits in because his mother's father was Lionel, who was second in line to the throne after Edward, The Black Prince. Since Edward had 1 surviving child (Richard), and Lionel had 1 child (Philippa), Philippa became 3rd in line. As in: If Edward and Richard both died, Philippa's eldest surviving son would get the crown. If that's wrong, then I pass lol. Either way, I'll happily bumble on through the rest of the book.

No, I'm not starting over, but when the rest of the group jumps in I'll backtrack a bit to join in the discussion. I've been busy with work so I haven't had a lot of time to read. Plus, I'm finding the politics in Chapter 18 rather heavy going.

That scene at the dinner with Constanza was great. I also like Katherine. I admire the fact that she made the best of things with Hugh and also with the 'blended family' of her children from Hugh and John. And she seems to be doing a fairly good job of parenting.

Constanza sharing John's bed and that charming bit about how she didn't bathe! Yikes! Seton doesn't shy away from some of the less savory details.

Hana wrote: "I admire the fact that she made the best of things with Hugh and also with the 'blended family'..."

I admired that, too - at one point in the book she talked about being 28, and I was thinking wait, is this a typo? because she was raising 6 kids of her own at that point, as well as being governess to John's children with Blanche.

I find it interesting that for all of John's love for Katherine he never gives a thought to marrying her instead of Costanza. It's not even mentioned as a possibility, obviously because he's a very ambitious man. And I also find it interesting that Katherine will not commit adultery with John because of Hugh, but that, later on, Costanza's claim to John's fidelity doesn't faze her a bit. Seems like some very fine-line-drawing here!

That seems completely believable to me. Katherine has a strong sense of morality that comes from her family and convent training. Katherine is not nobility but she's raised in a Feudal tradition that views the nobles as quite apart from common morality. Weird dynastic child marriages, marriage as a political alliance, etc. among the nobility might have fostered some vague sense that the rules (civil and religious) don't apply to to The Royals.

But I think she basically just caved in to passion after such a long denial and then couldn't give him up. She 'fell from grace' in a moment of weakness and then she stilled her conscience with time. It's very human.

John's marriage to Constanza was a product of his ambition and desire for a Throne. He couldn't back out without political/military repercussions.

Both John and Katherine seem astonished by their passion for each other. "The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing."

It's very easy to be analytical when reading about someone else's life, and to see them as illogical, but when we look into our own lives we see the same inconsistencies. Which, of course, is why we read - to see the similarities which bind us all together. And, hopefully, it makes us kinder, right?!?

This is a very interesting section as John & Katherine's children grow older. (view spoiler)[Katherine just starting to realise the power she has over John. (hide spoiler)]

Karlyne wrote: "I find it interesting that for all of John's love for Katherine he never gives a thought to marrying her instead of Costanza. It's not even mentioned as a possibility, obviously because he's a very..."

I don't think Katherine had the ranking to be the wife of a prince.

It's true John is very ambitious, but the widow of a minor vassel and not of the nobility at all--I was not shocked that John didnt think of marrying her. She wouldn't have brought him anything but herself, a terrible piece of property and two children. I think these royals look to gain something from their marriages.