SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

What did everyone think? Full spoilers allowed.

Just finished it, I thought it was brilliant. And though I don't think it is possible to top the first one - the genius of the world-building has already been done, for the most part, and the three voices trick was not something she could do again - I still thought she developed a lot of new ideas that I wasn't expecting in this one - use of magic vs. orogeny, turning people to stone, eating people, networking obelisks/orogenes, boil bugs, feral orogeny as an asset, caging stone-eaters in crystal, using orogeny for slicing. What a list!

I wanted to put a few things out for discussion:

What do people think of the "magic" idea. It seemed a lot like the midi-chlorian idea from Star Wars in that it was trying for a scientific explanation for "magic". Do we buy that? Does it make this series sci-fi?? (Hey, there is a lot of geology...)

What did people think of Nassun stoning an entire village of innocent students at the Antarctic Fulcrum? Isn't Nassun basically their peer - a young orogene brought up under the tutelage of a Fulcrum-trained orogene? Didn't they have a chance to unlearn what had been learned like she is? And how did she become a stone-cold (ha ha) killer so quickly? She was screaming in horror when she discovered Eitz, but then she murders a whole village and says she is "fine". Seriously??

Michael wrote: "What do people think of the "magic" idea."

I remember being mildly annoyed by it. It got over it.

Michael wrote: "What did people think of Nassun stoning an entire village of innocent students at the Antarctic Fulcrum?"

I read this book last year and it's not really fresh enough on my mind to say on what I thought at the time. However, showing how a human can connect with one person or group of people while dehumanizing other people to commit monstrous acts is... thematically fully consistent with this series. Empathy is not a reliable state of mind.

Michael wrote: "Just finished it, I thought it was brilliant. And though I don't think it is possible to top the first one - the genius of the world-building has already been done, for the most part, and the three..."

David, good analysis!

The magic worked for me. There was enough structure that I could follow what was allowed and what wasn't, and enough hand-waviness that when things got a little less structured, I could connect enough dots that I never got lost.

I think Nassun and Schaffa are fascinating. They are both what in traditional times the other would fear right now--a contaminated Guardian and a powerful feral with no moral code and an innate understanding of the obelisks. They should want to destroy each other, and they sort of do, but not more than they want to try to finish their mission, which remains to be fully vocalized.

I enjoyed the book overall but I agree that it didn't quite meet the quality or novelty of the first one.

The one thing that piqued me a little was how little of Alabaster's story and his teaching went. We spend a lot of time being told "you" are with him but all of the important parts came as epiphanies. I hope that now he's a stone eater, he's more vocal. Lol.

David wrote: "... showing how a human can connect with one person or group of people while dehumanizing other people to commit monstrous acts is... thematically fully consistent with this series. Empathy is not a reliable state of mind."

That is a good point, and I agree that it was thematically consistent - and in fact these horribly gray areas are some of my favorite parts about this series. They make the characters disturbing, but also more real.

I just didn't think Nassun would be so glib about it afterward, even if she had a momentary tantrum based on the horrors of her childhood. Even Essun has second thoughts about the things she does, and she has seen a lot worse in her 42-year life. (For example, Essun had a moment of regret ("look what you've done") when she iced a few people and buildings in Tirimo, and they were actually trying to kill her, unlike the students just wandering around Nassun...)

Michael wrote: "David wrote: "... showing how a human can connect with one person or group of people while dehumanizing other people to commit monstrous acts is... thematically fully consistent with this series. E..."

Yeah, but I think children can be more dogmatic. This is for a person who is good. The good person is killing people. Therefore, it is good to kill these people. She's extremely torqued, no doubt. She reminds me of this story I heard on talk radio where families of sociopathic kids related stories of how they'd find one of their children giggling and trying to strangle their sibling. Kid ain't right. But she doesn't know that yet.

Michael wrote: "What did people think of Nassun stoning an entire village of innocent students at the Antarctic Fulcrum?"

I'm at the stage with these books where I assume everyone in it is a sociopath to some degree, with the possible exception of Innon. I'm yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary.

I thought it was great but still find myself quite confused. I've read a few reviews hoping for some insight to what I may have missed.

The stone eaters were human but aren't now. What happened? I can't believe they all came from "connecting" with the onyx obelisk. What does Father earth want besides being reunited with the moon? Both Essun and Nassan seem to want the same thing but for different reasons: bring back the moon. Scaffa both works for Father earth and resists father earth. How does Father earth feel about "Stills"? Stone eaters are divided but in general want the "Stills" gone. Bringing back the moon will help the "Stills" to survive. I didn't understand Hoa. Why the love and dedication for Essun? Why Antimony's love for Alabaster? Is the answer to both questions is about the inherent power that they possessed as orogenes? If so, why do some stone eaters want to share the world with "Stills"? What's so awesome about the "Stills"?

I'll offer up my interpretations on some of those (subject to my sometimes flaky memory):

- "The stone eaters were human but aren't now. What happened?" and "How does Father earth feel about "Stills"?"

I don't remember details on these and have a feeling they might be a Book 3 thing.

- "I didn't understand Hoa. Why the love and dedication for Essun?"

Because she rescued him from the obelisk in which he was trapped.

- "Why Antimony's love for Alabaster?"

It felt like this was an example of shared aims but I'm vaguer on this one.

- "Why do some stone eaters want to share the world with "Stills"? What's so awesome about the "Stills"?"

The impression I was left with was basically a racism (speciesism?) analogy. I'll Godwin the discussion with this analogy, but Hitler wanted to wipe out the Jews. Most people don't feel that way. Stone eaters are, after all, basically human to some degree so having that degree of differences of opinions isn't necessarily unusual.

Donald wrote: "I'm at the stage with these books where I assume everyone in it is a sociopath to some degree, with the possible exception of Innon. I'm yet to see convincing evidence to the contrary."

Yeah, I think I just felt betrayed because I could empathize with her character - and her dilemmas - so well, that I wanted her to take the "high road". I'll have to get over it.

Donald wrote: "...having that degree of differences of opinions isn't necessarily unusual."

That is kind of my answer for the whole battle of wills going on for this whole book. Everyone has a different opinion and goals for the most part, and very few (if any) of these views are "black and white". They are all twisted up in their personal experiences and prejudices. What's interesting is that which group triumphs (like real life?) won't have much to do with what is ethical, just who is most powerful and/or creates the strongest alliances. Ykka does a great job convincing Stills and orogenes to live in peace and harmony, but when the chips are down, Stills will exterminate the orogenes unless the orogenes have enough control over their power to fight back and win. I think that aspect is brilliant because it allows you to see the despair of oppression/genocide while being able to indulge the fantasy of the superhero being able to right the wrongs enacted on their kind. (X-Men, anyone?)

Anyone planning on getting Stone Sky as soon as it comes out?

Allison wrote: "Anyone planning on getting Stone Sky as soon as it comes out?"

Yes! Hopefully very soon after the 15th.

Travis, you and me. We'll be comparing notes a lot over the next month I think!

Add me, though I'm willing to wait and see if either of my local libraries get it in relatively promptly. One had it on their list of books to vote for buying so they're at least aware of it.

Yeah, I'm going to see if the library gets it relatively soon. I don't want to buy a hard cover, but I would like it this year. Will definitely add you. If we have three interested people, we should make a thread for it as soon as we get to it :)

I just finished this book and have similar feelings. Whilst this book is good, it will suffer from being compared to The Fifth Season. Jemisin does shift her scope a bit with this one. But I too struggled with the role of Alabaster in this book. Essun continues to struggle with his style of teaching and spends a whole year at Castrimia to learn what she needs from Ykka near the end of the novel. And we aren't privy to most of the discussion anyway. This was my least favorite part of the narrative.

I hope that book 3 will tie up some loose strings with how stone eaters fit into the story. And I suspect the story will shift once again to Nassun and Schaffa mainly.

Does anyone think Essun has PTSD? I'm reminded of the thinking that black parents were harsher with their children in an effort to protect them from danger in society ( Between the World and Me) which serves to explain why Essun raises Nassun as she does. The whole scope of oppression is rife in this novel. And how the abused becomes the abuser. And for a moment I wondered who were the real villains here.

June wrote: "I just finished this book and have similar feelings. Whilst this book is good, it will suffer from being compared to The Fifth Season. Jemisin does shift her scope a bit with this one. But I too st..."

Definitely, the parallels in this book to modern day society. I think you captured a lot of the thoughts that ran through my head, too. Nora did a great job pivoting the "who is deserving of equality" question just enough that the tie in is there, but it doesn't feel preachy because the people being questioned really are different in some way. Who is community? Who is the bad guy? How does that change situation to situation?

June wrote: "The whole scope of oppression is rife in this novel. And how the abused becomes the abuser. And for a moment I wondered who were the real villains here. "

I was trying to figure out your villains question here. Do you mean we are tempted to think of Essun and Nassun as villains because they kill people, but the truth is they became that way because of the oppression inherent in the society? Or did you mean something else?

Allison wrote: "June wrote: "I just finished this book and have similar feelings. Whilst this book is good, it will suffer from being compared to The Fifth Season. Jemisin does shift her scope a bit with this one...."

Your "Nora" threw me off here, Allison! I was like, who are they talking about? : ) I never feel like I am on a first name basis with the authors I read, maybe it is because I would hate being such a public figure... (Speaking of fame, I was psyched that this book won the Hugo last week, just like the prequel did; the pressure is on Ms. Jemisin for book #3...)

Michael wrote: "Allison wrote: "June wrote: "I just finished this book and have similar feelings. Whilst this book is good, it will suffer from being compared to The Fifth Season. Jemisin does shift her scope a bi..."

And now I notice you are an author. < slaps forehead > Well, I will have to call you Ms. Hurd from now on. :p

Ha! No, please that wasn't ever the point. It's probably extremely millenial of me, I just feel like I lived inside this person's world and head for however many books. We shared that, and are now closer. In person, I'd call her Ms. Jemisin (if I stopped fan girling long enough to use words!), but talking among friends about an author's creativity, the author is the other friend in the room with me.

Wow, my library just got The Stone Sky stocked for my hold request. That was fast!

Jealous! You just reminded me to place mine. Only three ahead of me! Suckersss!

@Michael, I was thinking we usually have clear cut idea of who is a villain or hero. But Essun and Nassun end up killing others, sometimes a whole community even if it is inadvertent. But even both of them have reasons for what they did under significant oppression, I wonder about how we define a hero or a villain. And after a while, I felt that I was underestimating the narrative based on my presumptions. After all, we don't have the full story as yet.

But I've decided to think of them as morally gray characters.

I just reread this and amazed by the exquisite and mature storytelling. I gave it four stars during my first read and after the reread I added another one. I know some friends who are bored with this book but I think each sentence is well crafted and serves a purpose. It also made me rethink all other fantasies that I gave four or five stars - some of them may not deserve to be in same level as this and some other novels. Especially the lesser in storytelling, narrative and worldbuilding. Jemisin (and Mieville) has changed my expectation towards fantasy and SFF in general.

Speaking of SFF, the SF feel (for me) in this book are stronger, despite the so-called magic.

I think these books are brilliant because despite all the stuff going on and the thousands of years since our time, they're still so human. They rationalize things. If they have causes, they can justify unpopular opinions. It takes humanity to get them to change their minds and as orogenes are both really the worst off in this society, and also wield power that stills can't possibly imagine, the stakes and stressors are much higher. The people are all just so believable and the crucible they're going through is so pressurized that you believe every tense moment and every bad decision.

Okay, here I go, trying to find some sensible words. (I didn't read the other comments, cause I realised that I'm too easily influenced by them, I'll read them after posting my impression).

At first I thought the second part would not live up to the first one. Somehow I was missing the threefold storyline, and thought the linear one didn't have the same power. But that first impression didn't last long. Soon I was captivated by the caring, yet somehow distanced characterisation of Nassun. Her line of thoughts were so logical, yet so cruelly cool at moments, I was mesmerized. She will be such a power to reckon with.

On the other hand I more and more sympathized with Essun, whom I had no real connection with in the first book. Especially the moment, when she loses it was so damn intense. I honestly had goosebumps while reading. Jemisin is so fantastic in bringing those believable characters to life, I can't recall many authors who left such a deep impression with me character-wise. She makes it so easy for me as a reader to feel for and with them. Particularly the comparison between Essun and Ykka was fascinating, and the realisation that they don't have to compete but that they need each other to reach a common goal. Two strong women working together - great!
(Yes, and I did cry this time … which I seldomly do while reading …)


Apart from the characters I feel myself deeper and deeper dragged into her brilliantly built world. I adore the concept of the orogenes and the slowly unfolding importance of the stone eaters. Not planet and people apart, but planet and people as a (disastrous) unity, where the stills somehow are mere bystanders.

Like with the first book, the last quarter proved itself again so intense, so exciting that I couldn't put it down, cause it was the reading equivalent of nail biting.


I'm exited for the last part, and at the same time a bit sad, cause this means I will have to leave this world soon.

Beautifully stated,Gabi!

<3 <3 I'm so glad you liked it. Reading your review made me feel this book all over again!

I read this series last year! Loved it although I got through the whole of the first book a bit confused until I got to the end!
An amazing series

I loved The Fifth Season but for some reason kept putting off reading The Obelisk Gate.... and I loved it just as much!

The characters bending and changing and doing things they never thought they would, the body horror with the turning slowly to stone, the magic system, the moon!, the dealing with prejudice and who gets to be considered a person (loved, loved this), and the impending apocalypse.... awesome.

The second person fits well, and they finally showed that it's been Hoa telling the story all along? (Right?)

Kate wrote: "Did Alabaster at the end become a stone eater!? Or is that just my wishful thinking that he passed from flesh to stone but he is still part of the story? "

Yes, I am pretty sure he did! It might not entirely be "him" anymore, but I think that's what we were trying to get.

Kate wrote: "Did Alabaster at the end become a stone eater!? Or is that just my wishful thinking that he passed from flesh to stone but he is still part of the story?"

I think he did. That's how I understood it. This means Essun is going to be one too if she agrees to be eaten by Hoa. Or Is she going to become a stone eater anyway? Hoa said something like "Death is not an option anymore".

Anyway, I loved the book. I've devoured it. It kept my interest even more than "The Fifth Season". I had some concerns at the beginning, but I couldn't stop reading. I'm glad I've both the rest of the series after finishing the first book (I got it as a present) and I can jump right into "The Stone Sky".

I'm surprised how I liked Shaffa in this one. His relation with Nassun reminded me of Geralt and Ciri from "The Witcher" saga.
Hoa revealed a lot more about himself and I hope for more in the next book. The moment when Nassun is sensing orogenics in the north and Hoa says:"(It's not Castrima. I know what you think.)" just after I thought "Castrima?" - oh, goosebumps.

What I didn't like was Jija's character, who appeared to be just a week man in the interesting times.

I had also a problem keeping track of who is who in Castrima. These characters were too similar and mild (?) for me.

Like Kate, Jessica and Aga I also enjoyed reading this book. I found it much more engrossing than ‘The Fifth Season,’ mainly because once I remembered who each character was, it pulled the story together much better for me (as you’d expect in a continuing series). At no time did I get the feeling of ‘padding out’ or drifting’. Every line was relevant and kept the story flowing.

Aga wrote: Hoa says:"(It's not Castrima. I know what you think.)" just after I thought "Castrima?"

This line was brilliant, just thrown in to show that the author knew what the reader was thinking and wasn’t going to make it that easy.

Aga wrote: What I didn't like was Jija's character, who appeared to be just a week man in the interesting times

I would dispute the idea that Jija was weak. Bigoted, certainly. Murderous, certainly, but not weak. What Jemisin does is suggest a quandary for the man who is trying to maintain his family on one side by ignoring what they actually are and conforming to the norms of his society on the other. Norms which allow no toleration of orogenics outside the strict control of the guardians. This discrimination is the result of justified fear of the feral, graphically demonstrated by the author in the accidental death of Eitz when he wakes Nassam from her nightmare. Eventually Jija cracks, beating his son to death (not an act I would advocate) and yet, even then the strength of the father-daughter relationship with Nassan means that he continues to struggle to accept the truth about his daughter’s identity.

What Jemisin does really well in my opinion is to explain a developing callousness in both Essun and Nassam, born from a survival instinct in a world where most people would rather they ceased t0 exist. Essun has lost at least three lives and families, including her own children, through the first two books in this series, while her daughter has had to walk a delicate and manipulative path when dealing with her father and the two guardians, Nida and Umber who wish to kill her.

I think my problem with Jija is caused by my previous expectations toward this character. Reading "The Fifth Season" I was building many wild theories about him in my mind. Nassuns POV gave me a new perspective. When Nassun thinks "You should have had us with someone stronger" towards her mother it's a turning point for both of them, father and daughter. She sees that he is too afraid of orogenic to love her and that is what I call a weakness. But at the same time I agree with you that he tried, he struggled to make sure Nassun will live. Although "he could kill her, but he didn't" is not enough for me.

I really enjoyed the development of Jija, I thought his weakness suited him. Essun is strong because of the trauma she has experienced, the fulcrum teaches that orogenes are hated out there, and they must be strong. Jija hasn't had to face anything half as bad as Essun and so of course he is weaker. He was brought up to hate orogenes so of course he struggles greatly when he finds they have been living in his house and a (his) little boy is killed because of racism.
I think Jijas story works perfectly as a comment on our own racist society.

His struggle with nassun and wanting to fix her her could also speak to the sexism faced by women & girls - men wanting to protect innocence & fragility (when in reality nassun can protect herself) and demanding they be 'pure' before they are worthy of love.

Basically I liked Jijas part in the story, & thought he represented the complexities of an oppressive world.
(Although I still can't get over someone as incredible as Essun shacking up with such a loser!)

Some quick impressions before proceeding with The Stone Sky.

As I started the novel I realised this might be my first cycle (trilogy; whatever) whose books are set immediately after the previous one. It's a solution that can stregthen the overarching story but weaken the identity of single books, especially the middle one. So I was curious.

My impression is that The Obelisk Gate is about depth and density. Castrima (under!) and the stone-eaters are good metaphors for this.
The Fifth Season was wider: more points of view (apparently), more locations, a much longer timespan, a lot of lore and background. This second book doubles down and drills in place.
Various events that were maybe barely mentioned in TFS are analysed in greater detail (chapter 10 was the point I decided the novel deserved 5 stars, for the mere scope of Alabaster's experience). And while TFS also had plenty of very emotional moments, I felt the ones in this book to be even grander. Perhaps that's just down to being more invested in the characters who are still around, as we discover more about them.

The introduction of Nassun at this point of the cycle is well-timed, and I found her chapters very stimulating. Based on my limited knowledge (e.g. Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race) I had the impression that Essun's education of her daughter is meant to convey the experience of a mixed-race family: the racialised parent is more severe with their children for their own good; they have experienced forms of discriminations that the other parent hasn't.
More generally, to put it bluntly (and overlook every fine detail, of which this trilogy has a lot), orogeny is used to talk about racism and discrimination, power structures ans exploitation.
There's also a lot of trauma to unpack, and I might have to think more about it to form a comprehensive analysis.

One example is Alabaster's death.
It may seem unwarranted in such a minor episode, although the context in which it happens is very tense, but what triggered Essun's reaction is the trauma of loosing all of her children (or so she thinks at this point), all of them for being roggas — again, the n-word. It actually makes for a very powerful moment.

Now I'll read the previous posts...

I enjoyed reading it, but didn't really understand a lot of it. It's kind of like I enjoyed the texture without being able to see how all the pieces relate. I have no idea why there is orogeny, stone eaters, obelisks, etc. But I wasn't bored.