THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The August theme read is on any book or books covering the S.E. Asia and Pacific Theatres (land, air & sea).

Thanks for opening up early Rick, and nice picture! I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's updates and adding a few books to my tbr list.

I'm around a hundred pages into With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa, a book which many in this group have already read. It's not what I was expecting - it's much better! Eugene Sledge writes really well, and it's a very readable book. He comes across as honest and self-effacing, describing not only military life, combat, tactics, etc. but also the fear, fatigue and extreme stress that goes with it, and his struggle to hold on to his humanity.

For those who haven't read it, early chapters deal with his enlisting, training, through to deloyment on Peleliu. He clearly explains the action on the ground, how he felt, and also touches on the wider significance of the battle - and whether it actually had much strategic value.

Spot on Tony. No bull, just the humanity. No Action Man crap.

For the 75th anniversary of Guadalcanal, I got this "Shots Fired in Anger: A Rifleman's View of the War in the Pacific, 1942-1945, including the campaign on Guadalcanal and fighting with Merrill's Marauders in the jungles of Burma" by John B. George (which is more about the tail-end of the ground fighting from what I've seen so far), but it also fits the other half of the theme.

I've sat out the last few buddy reads, but this time I'm going to fit a book in: Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal by James D. Hornfischer. I loved The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour by the same author, so I'm looking forward to this one. It's waiting on my kindle--so thanks to whichever group member pointed it out when it went on sale.

Tony wrote: "Thanks for opening up early Rick, and nice picture! I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's updates and adding a few books to my tbr list.

I'm around a hundred pages into With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa by Eugene B. Sledge With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa, a book which many in this group have already read. It's not what I was expecting - it's much better!"

With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa is the best memoir I've ever read. Glad you're enjoying it, Tony!

Tony wrote: "Thanks for opening up early Rick, and nice picture! I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's updates and adding a few books to my tbr list.

I'm around a hundred pages into [bookcover:With ..."

I just purchased this book and can't wait to start it. Looking forward to updates from other readers

A.L. wrote: "With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa is the best memoir I've ever read. Glad you're enjoying it, Tony! "

Thanks A.L. Hope you enjoy Neptune's Inferno. I haven't read any Hornfischer yet, but have The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors: The Extraordinary World War II Story of the U.S. Navy's Finest Hour sat on my shelf.

A.L. wrote: "I've sat out the last few buddy reads, but this time I'm going to fit a book in: [book:Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadal..."

Neptune's Inferno is so good. I definitely need to reread this one. I loved everyone of Hornfischer's four books but I think this may be his best.

Hornfischer's "Last Stand" is the best book on naval warfare in World War II I've ever read. His other books have all been good as well, with "Neptune's Inferno" probably being my second favorite.

As for Eugene Sledge, "With the Old Breed" is about as good as it gets for personal memoirs which are actually written by someone who knows how to write. If you want a little more Sledge, pick up a copy of this one which covers his service in China after the war:

China Marine: An Infantryman's Life after World War II

Pamela wrote: "Tony wrote: "Thanks for opening up early Rick, and nice picture! I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's updates and adding a few books to my tbr list.

I'm around a hundred pages into [bo..."

You just purchased with the Old Breed? Oh good! I'm excited for you. This is a 6-star book. The current Sec. of Defense and former commandant of the USMC, James Mattis, has With the Old Breed on his recommended professional reading list for Marines.

Someone asked a question of the General about books on Leadership that Marines should read. Below is his answer:

"It's a great, great question because the Commandant's Reading List is designed specifically to identify the very best reading there is on leadership. If you go to that -- that reading list you'll find Gates of Fire. And when you read Gates of Fire, you find you, as a young leader, will never face anything worse than what fighters have faced in the past. If you read Eugene Sledge's book about -- With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa, you'll find the spirit of the Marine Corps overcoming the most difficult combat conditions. And again, you'll find that you will face nothing new under the sun. You will be able to overcome it if you keep your Marine Corps training and your Marine Corps spirit foremost."

I had wanted to offer up Ian Tolls : Twilight of the Gods: War in the Western Pacific, 1944-1945. This is the end of his Pacific Trilogy and I liked the first two. Seems it is not due out till 2018, unless any here know better.

Marc wrote: "Hornfischer's "Last Stand" is the best book on naval warfare in World War II I've ever read. His other books have all been good as well, with "Neptune's Inferno" probably being my second favorite.
..."

Both books made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I am trying to figure out which was greater: Reading about cruisers and battle wagons, designed to fight at distances from 10-20 miles firing broadsides from as little as 350 meters or reading about men like Ernest Evans, who after sighting the the last of the great IJN surface fleet, ordered his destroyer to turn and make a torpedo attack on a fleet of battleships, cruisers, and several destroyers and then take them on with his 5" guns?

Sorry, sorry....I don't want to ruin these books for you. I will shut up now and only talk about my book:

Sweetwilliam wrote: "Marc wrote: "Hornfischer's "Last Stand" is the best book on naval warfare in World War II I've ever read. His other books have all been good as well, with "Neptune's Inferno" probably being my seco..."

I served aboard a destroyer of the U.S. Navy. They call them "tin cans" for good reasons. The courage required to throw your rudder hard left, go to "All ahead, flank speed," and attack a formation of battle wagons and cruisers is awe-inspiring. The event ranks alongside those of the Spartans at Thermopylae and the Foreign Legion at Camarón.

Phrodrick wrote: "I had wanted to offer up Ian Tolls : Twilight of the Gods: War in the Western Pacific, 1944-1945. This is the end of his Pacific Trilogy and I liked the first two. Seems it is not due out till 2018..."

First I've heard about a release date for the third book in Toll's trilogy. Thanks for the info!

Ok, so I get the feeling that With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa is popular around here... no pressure then!

The following passages about rear-echelon souvenir hunters made me chuckle:

"The front-line infantry bitterly resented the souvenir hunters. One major in the 7th Marines made it a practice of putting them into the line if they came into his area. His infantrymen saw to it that the "visitors" stayed put until released to return to their respective units in the rear area."

and

"During a lull in our attacks on the Five Sisters, I was on ammunition carrying detail and talking with a rifleman friend and handing him some bandoliers. It was quiet and we were sitting on the sides of his shallow foxhole as his buddy was bringing up K rations. Two neat, clean, fresh looking souvenir hunters wearing green cloth fatigue caps instead of helmets and carrying no weapons walked past us headed in the direction of the Five Sisters, several hundred yards away. When they got a few paces in front of us, one of them stopped and turned around, just as I was on the verge of calling to them to be careful where they went.

The man called back to us asking, "Hey, you guys, where's the front line?"

"You just passed through it," I answered serenely. The second souvenir hunter spun around. They looked at each other and then at us in astonishment. Then, grabbing the bills of their caps, they took off on the double back past us toward the rear."

Some excellent books being mentioned in this thread. I will be a little behind in joining in the theme read with a prior commitment but I won't be too far behind. The problem I still have is which book or books to bring to the group discussion :)

Tony wrote: "Ok, so I get the feeling that With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa is popular around here... no pressure then!

The following passages about rear-echelon souvenir hunters made ..."

Great accounts Tony :)

I'm now torn between the books I mentioned early that I was considering reading for this theme and a few other titles mentioned by other members. I am now thinking of tackling one of these books:

Pacific Crucible: War at Sea in the Pacific, 1941-1942 by Ian W. Toll

Hirohito's War: The Pacific War, 1941-1945 by Francis Pike

War at the End of the World: Douglas MacArthur and the Forgotten Fight For New Guinea, 1942-1945 by James P. Duffy

While I like Toll, a lot, I am not sure that Pacific Crucible adds that much new to the existing body of PTO 42-43. If you have not yet read
Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway than you do not know Midway. Ok over statement but it is that good.

Hirohito's War: The Pacific War looks like the exact kind of book I have been looking for. Having just finished Black Lamb and Grey Falcon I am certain I cannot do another 1100 pages of book w/o a buddy. If you go that way please let me know. BTW anyone who lived through, in or around the Serbo-Croation War back in the 1990's there is some good stuff from Dame West.

War at the End of the World, for me is a back burner.
Lemme know if you think we can buddy up.

For my info only, Have you read any of your countrymen -David Kilcullen ?

Hi Phrodrick, I have read a number of newspaper articles by David Kilcullen and have his book; "Blood Year: Islamic State and the Failures of the War on Terror" in my library waiting to be read.

Blood Year: Islamic State and the Failures of the War on Terror by David Kilcullen

In regards to "Hirohito's War" if I don't get around to reading it this theme read another group member, Dimitri may be attempting to slog his way through it.

Today I started in Hirohito's War.

Bou wrote: "Today I started in Hirohito's War."

Looks like a bit of a brick, Bou!

Just finished the introduction. The author makes an interesting observation: although perhaps not that guilty as Hitler was, nonetheless Hirohito's alleged ignorance of war crimes would not have saved him from execution if placed before the Tokyo Tribunal. It was MacArthur's arbitrary and misguided decision that Hirohito was the key post to the post-war stability of Japan.

The main aim of the book is to present a balanced, comprehensive and readable one-volume of the conflict. The approach from the author is to present the narative of the timeline based on individual campaigns, instead of multiple campaigns.

The author places the conflict within the 100-year struggle between America and Japan for dominiation of the Pacific. Roosevelt's oil embargo constituted nothing more than an de facto act of war against Japan. He also tries to lift the veil of the propagandist beliefs of the importance of MacArthur, and also tries to attend to the importance of the oft forgotten other area's of the war, such as the contribution of Austalia and the operations in Burma. At last, the book also looks at the competences of the Japanese commanders.

All in all, it promised to be a good ride :-)


Hirohito's War: The Pacific War, 1941-1945

Racing through Shockwave: the countdown to Hiroshima; so far we have twenty minutes to go to the Trinity test, and the USS Indianapolis has sine unusual passengers! It's a very readable account, managing to build some tension despite knowing the outcome.

Tony wrote: "Ok, so I get the feeling that With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa is popular around here... no pressure then!

The following passages about rear-echelon souvenir hunters made ..."

Sounds like a good one Tony, I'll have to get a copy, I'm interested to see how it stacks up to Quartered Safe Out Here

Bou wrote: "Just finished the introduction. The author makes an interesting observation: although perhaps not that guilty as Hitler was, nonetheless Hirohito's alleged ignorance of war crimes would not have saved him from execution if placed before the Tokyo Tribunal. It was MacArthur's arbitrary and misguided decision that Hirohito was the key post to the post-war stability of Japan."

I am not so sure that I agree MacArthur was misguided. MacArthur in my opinion read the Japanese peoples cultural sensitivities exceedingly well as to post war stability. To execute the Emperor was to execute Japan full stop. There would (not could) have been a national mass suicide hitherto previously unseen. The Emperor, from the dawns of time, represented the “people” themselves. A godlike figure to the point that the entire Japanese people will consider themselves a “nothing” without the “role” existing. I am not sure that I am even able to explain this very well.

I read a fair bit on Japan a few decades back and I am not an expert by any means but the one thing that came across to me in my various readings was the hierarchical nature of Japan. From the Meiji Reformation onwards their seemed to me to be a definitive 3 level model, the monarchy, the military and the merchant class. The monarchy was the "weakest" in terms of influence with the military and the merchant class fighting for influence over society in general. Prior to WW2 the military was in the fore and the nation was then lead in a direction of their preference. After the war the merchant class has ruled the roost and for that we can say that US influence has loomed large.

When Hirohito made the surrender speech and also showed his face to the people in 45 he was the first emperor to make a public appearance since Meiji and prior to that goodness when. Even in the last 24 hours prior to surrender there was palace intrigue between the “peace” and “war” factions trying to influence the future direction of the war. If the “war” faction had been victorious there is no doubt in my mind that the death of million on a scale unimaginable would have occurred. Not just the Japanese military but from millions of civilians and invading US soldiers.

MacArthur I know has his critics but, to reiterate, in my opinion he read the Japanese peoples cultural sensitivities superbly. He allowed the merchant class to take the ascendant position, let the monarchy recede back into the symbolism it was and put the military under the control of a constitution.

It's been mentioned that the last peace proposal put to Japan included guarantees that the Emperor would be safeguarded. Stimpson understood that no pace proposal would ever bee accepted without this clause.

Coupla thoughts
There is a decent field of literature that Gen. Mac Author is one of the most over rate generals in the American pantheon. I can list several unforgivable to his discredit.
King and Nimitz pretty much had no use for him. Keeping in mind inter service rivalry at the theater level.

I also agree that as a potential war criminal The Emperor would have been very vulnerable, and not just on Japanese depredations.

All that aside, Mac deserves credit for his post war leadership in Japan. If only he could have been kept away from Korea.

Hi, I must admit that I'm with you guys here. Removing Hirohito, or even let him face a tribunal would resulted in a lot of trouble for the Americans. However, it's interesting to see how the author will explain this observation. I'll keep you posted. It's discussions like these, that keep a book interesting.

Just finished:

Now I'm torn between reading one of these:

Haven't read Thunder Below, but Whirlwind is a petty good read.

But Inchon was his greatest achievement. The last two books I read about MacArthur described a deeply flawed individual and commander (Ghost Mountain Boys and Coldest Winter). Maybe so but you can't take Inchon away from him. That was a bold move and a stroke of genius.

But Inchon also encouraged him to think he could get away with anything, including marching to the Yalu. The consequences of a bold move is not always ultimate victory.

Sweetwilliam wrote: "But Inchon was his greatest achievement. The last two books I read about MacArthur described a deeply flawed individual and commander (Ghost Mountain Boys and Coldest Winter). Maybe so but you can'..."

I do take Inchon away from him. and not just me.
It was fool hearty and needlessly risky. All of the risk on people not Mac A.
There was a better safer landing spot closer to the Soldiers and Marines who were under tremendous pressure all the way at the other end of S. Korea..
The Forgotten War: America in Korea, 1950-1953
Inchon was a Great Moment for the Navy and Marine Corp Team, but they would have been just as great had the lading been closer to where it was needed.

Ahh Betsy. You speak of hubris. Yes, many of the great conquerors suffered from this and he did so in spades. But I didn't come here to praise the American Caesar...

And we are a tad afield of WWII.
My fault

Lawrence Brent Rogers wrote: "Just finished:

Now I'm torn between reading


Some how I missed that Eugene B. Fluckey wrote books.
I have read this good Bio: The Galloping Ghost: The Extraordinary Life of Submarine Legend Eugene Fluckey

I think I lean on recommending the Fluckly book

Thanks. I like Clay Blair. We ought to have a Korean War choice for a theme read next year.

Sweetwilliam wrote: "Thanks. I like Clay Blair. We ought to have a Korean War choice for a theme read next year."

Just a couple weeks ago I read Max Hastings' The Korean War. He pays due to MacArthur for Inchon, but overall Mac doesn't come off well.

I grew up watching Merrill's Marauders. Time to read the story from a Marauder himself:

The Marauders

I use to watch that as well Mike, blast from the past! Good choice for the theme read :)

Have just started on the Eichelberger book. He has just met MacArthur's Chief of Staff, Richard Sutherland. For some reason the words 'prima donna' come to mind, but Eichelberger seems to take him in stride. I suppose you don't get far in the army without meeting a few.

Tony wrote: "Thanks for opening up early Rick, and nice picture! I'm really looking forward to reading everyone's updates and adding a few books to my tbr list.

I'm around a hundred pages into [bookcover:With ..."

One of the best first person books I have read for low-level fighting. I would say it is a must read.

A.L. wrote: "I've sat out the last few buddy reads, but this time I'm going to fit a book in: [book:Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadal..."

I enjoyed this book quite a bit. Hope you find it as good as I did.

Phrodrick wrote: "While I like Toll, a lot, I am not sure that Pacific Crucible adds that much new to the existing body of PTO 42-43. If you have not yet read
[book:Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle o..."

Shattered Sword is perhaps one of the best books on the Battle of Midway there is out there, only one thing could make it better. And that would be if it was a stand alone book. It makes such a thing of removing the misrepresented facts in other books it pretty much needs to be read after reading another book on the Battle. Which doesn't mean it should be read. Because is incredible and answers questions about the Navies in question that are valuable even outside the question of Midway.

Betsy wrote: "Have just started on the Eichelberger book. He has just met MacArthur's Chief of Staff, Richard Sutherland. For some reason the words 'prima donna' come to mind, but Eichelberger seems to take him ..."

LOL. Eichelberger was an officer that deserved a great deal of praise for what he put up with.

I think that can be said for several officers who took on 'thankless' jobs because it was their duty, and they wanted to win the war more than advance themselves. Unfortunately, they are not always remembered for that reason.

Lawrence Brent Rogers wrote: "Just finished:

Now I'm torn between reading one of these:
[bookcover:Whirlwind: The Air Wa..."

I've read all three and found them all to be very good. Fluckey's book is excellent as he was one of the top American submarine skippers in the war and had some pretty adventurous times. Tillman's book covers lots of ground but does have a few nuggets which I didn't know before reading it.

I'd say you can't go wrong with either.

Betsy wrote: "Have just started on the Eichelberger book. He has just met MacArthur's Chief of Staff, Richard Sutherland. For some reason the words 'prima donna' come to mind, but Eichelberger seems to take him ..."

MacAuthur was very big personality and any discussion that includes his name will threaten to take over.
Were I asked to give a favorite MacA lines; two come to mind, this From Eisenhower:
When asked what he'd learned as "Mac's" aide, Ike famously quipped, "I studied drama under MacArthur for several years."

I think the other one was when he dispatched Eichelberger to take over the New Guinea campaign, but I have to look it up. Maybe someone knows the one I mean.