Breaking The Code To The Catcher In The Rye discussion

I would like to know what your opinion is on the "ducks"?
Holden spends a great deal of time researching where the ducks at Central Park go. Ask first himself and then two different cab drivers.

Was he wondering where all ducks go? Or just the ducks in Central park? And not just all of Central Park but the lagoon down near Central Park South. I am not from NYC and was not familiar with this area of Central Park so i looked it up on Google.

This is what it says about that area on wiki:
"The portion of the street forming the southern boundary of Central Park from Columbus Circle at Eighth Avenue/Central Park West on the west to Grand Army Plaza at Fifth Avenue on the east is known as Central Park South. Entry into Central Park can be made at the Scholars' Gate at Fifth Avenue, the Artists' Gate at Sixth Avenue, the Artisans' Gate at Seventh Avenue, and the Merchants' Gate at Columbus Circle. Central Park South contains four famous upscale hotels: the Plaza Hotel, the Ritz-Carlton (Central Park), which is the flagship of the Ritz-Carlton chain, the Park Lane, and JW Marriott Essex House."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...

On page 121 Holden tells us about going to the museum. He is aware that the birds fly south for winter. I am sure some of the ducks are at the museum and are flying south. But he says, "but they all looked like they were really flying south, and if you bent your head down and sort of looked at them upside down, they looked in a bigger hurry."

Upside Down defined:
"with the top at the bottom and the bottom at the top : placed so that the end that should be at the top is at the bottom
Full Definition of UPSIDE DOWN

1: in such a way that the upper and the lower parts are reversed in position
2: in or into great disorder "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...

What did you make of this different perspective?
Of course the taxi driver is mostly concerned about what happens to the fish that the ducks feed on. They are frozen. They can't just get up and move.

If the fish were assets or the economy and the ducks were wall street would that make more sense? Do we see wall street going after greener pastures either through war or through trade agreements?

It is interesting that when he talks about the ducks with Spencer that he is all saying over and over again "shooting the bull". Maybe in this case the pun is intended and the bull is Wall Street. Maybe when you are talking to a teacher that tells you life is just a game, you come to understand that Holden is very perceptive.

I personally see the world that Holden has been traveling through like an Odyssey. I don't know that Holden is crazy at all. I think the world he travels through as he narrates it is hostile to a boy as sensitive as Holden. Does he possibly suffer from PTSD? Well I am not a psychiatrist, but I could imagine that he does. Is this though, what was important for Salinger to tell us in his book? Is convincing us of Holden's state of mind what drove him to write the book? And if it is what is the point of the ducks? Why did he spend a lot of time thinking about them, interviewing people about where they went and then going to the lagoon and looking for them.

"my bike when I was a kid, but I had the most terrific trouble finding that lagoon that night. I knew right where it was--it was right near Central Park South and all--but I still couldn't find it. I must've been drunker than I thought. I kept walking and walking, and it kept getting darker and darker and spookier and spookier. I didn't see one person the whole time I was in the park. I'm just as glad. I probably would've jumped about a mile if I had. Then, finally, I found it. What it was, it was partly frozen and partly not frozen. But I didn't see any ducks around."

"I kept picturing her not knowing what to do with all my suits and athletic equipment and all. The only good thing, I knew she wouldn't let old Phoebe come to my goddam funeral because she was only a little kid. That was the only good part. Then I thought about the whole bunch of them sticking me in a goddam cemetery and all, with my name on this tombstone and all. Surrounded by dead guys. Boy, when you're dead, they really fix you up. I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery."

This is a reference to OSS-en-burger in chapter 3 page 16.
"It was named after this guy Ossenburger that went to Pencey. He made a pot of dough in the undertaking business after he got out of Pencey. What he did, he started these undertaking parlors all over the country that you could get members of your family buried for about five bucks apiece. You should see old Ossenburger. He probably just shoves them in a sack and dumps them in the river."

The Lake in Central Park


The 20-acre Lake is the largest of Central Park's naturalistic water bodies.

Park designers Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert Vaux created the Lake from a former swamp, for boating in the summer and ice-skating in the winter. In 2012 the Central Park Conservancy completed the comprehensive restoration of the Lake and its surrounding landscapes. With the water's edge having slowly crumbled and eroded through the years, (This just struck me as ironic in light of The Catcher in the Rye and our current state of affairs).

http://www.centralparknyc.org/things-...

Here is a conversation between the second cab driver and Holden.

"I kept wishing I could go home and shoot the bull for a while with old Phoebe. But finally, after I was riding a while, the cab driver and I sort of struck up a conversation. His name was Horwitz. He was a much better guy than the other driver I'd had. Anyway, I thought maybe he might know about the ducks.
"Hey, Horwitz," I said. "You ever pass by the lagoon in Central Park? Down by Central Park South?"
"The what?"
"The lagoon. That little lake, like, there. Where the ducks are. You know."
"Yeah, what about it?" "Well, you know the ducks that swim around in it? In the springtime and all? Do you happen to know where they go in the wintertime, by any chance?"
"Where who goes?"
"The ducks. Do you know, by any chance? I mean does somebody come around in a truck or something and take them away, or do they fly away by themselves--go south or something?"

He talks about shooting the bull with Phoebe and then repeats the word chance when he is talking about the ducks.

If the bull market was a vigorous market....wasn't this what Germany was before WW1?

Edward wrote: "Thank you so much for the kind invitation. I am truly honored, no sarcasm. I apologize for taking so long to respond, but weird things are happening. I wrote a reply this morning and then Goodreads..."

Thank you for discussing this book with me. Your interest has caused me to reread my post and realize I left out something that I think is significant.

When you Google "ducks WW2" you get this reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

Now the Lagoon is located in "Central Park South". Or at least the one Holden is talking about.

In this area is the Grand Army Plaza.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...

When I read about Holden trying to find the Lagoon I think he is reliving his war experience. I think that he is at the Grand Army Plaza.

This plaza was named after
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_o...
and it was the army that fought (and lost) the war's first major battle, the First Battle of Bull Run.

Here we have another "bull" connection.

I want to read about this before writing more.

Also on the duck:

Propaganda productions
As requested by the US Government, Walt Disney created a number of anti-German and anti-Japanese films for both the soldiers and the US public. He wanted to portray these countries and their leaders as manipulative without morals. A few of the films he produced were "Der Fuehrer's Face” (1942), “Education for Death - The Making of a Nazi” (1943), and “Commando Duck" (1944).[citation needed]

In “Der Fuehrer’s Face,” Donald Duck breaks down after experiencing a nightmare where he has to make do with eating ridiculous Nazi food rations (smell of bacon and eggs, coffee made with one bean, and a slice of stale bread) and experiences a day at a Nazi artillery factory. “Education for Death - The Making of a Nazi” was a wartime propaganda film that takes on the perspective of Hans, a young German boy. As the movie progresses and Hans is exposed to Hitler youth and the Nazi culture, his ability to value human life decreases. In “Commando Duck”, Donald, by himself, destroys an entire Japanese airbase.[citation needed]

Here is probably one of those movies that Holden didn't like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS2PQw...

Notice that he gets drafted, just like Salinger.

Edward wrote: "When you mentioned the number of hotels on Central Park South, I thought "transients." All of us? World leaders? This is getting into "Rules of the Game" territory, my all time favorite movie. PS. A slogan of the forgotten sixties was; "War is good business. Invest your son." ..."

Your slogan is so true.
I will have to check out your movie. I am kinda movie illiterate so appreciate suggestions.
I have also enjoyed your quotes from Bob Dylan. I listened to him and Marvin Gaye in 2005/06 on my walks. I was living in Bend, OR, one of the epicenter of the housing boom. It was crazy how much confidence people had. I thought about credit scores and how people were taught to value "grades" and numbers. They had everyone condition to pay attention to the right hand while they slipped in the left.

I read this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfza0...
Was one of Salinger's favorite movies.

Le Grande Illusion

I bet that the rules of the game is the reference to this movie. Salinger does name all the books and movies that his book references.

I love old movies better than new so keep passing them my way. I will let you know when I watch this one..

I found it on Amazon. I will make time for it this week.

Here is a reference to Le Grande Illusion being a movie that Salinger really liked. He saw it 10 times.
http://www.criterion.com/current/post...

Edward wrote: " I've also been researching "expert" opinions of the duck symbolism. They don't even make any sense as they all say their migration (or disappearance) symbolizes Holden's acceptance of becoming a man. I suppose when they come back Holden will again become a boy. Straighten them out. ..."

I was so frustrated with what the "official" line was about this book that it immediately made me suspicious that there was something about the book that held a germ of truth. I decided to pretend that Salinger was going to give me an Ivy League education and I would go as far as I could through his school. So far I have been pleasantly surprised at what is hidden in plan sight.

One thing I admired was that he wouldn't let them make a movie of his book.

One book you should put on your list is Bambi

Read Wikipedia on it and you will see it was too adult for Disney. I always think this is why Holden says he hates the movies. They distort the story and make people think they have experienced the book.

Edward wrote: ""Bambi" is another of my all time favorites. But, I only saw it emotionally. In reading of JDS I learned that he did permit a movie to be made of one of his books. However, his insistence on having..."

I see Bambi as an allegory. Are you sure you read Felix Salten version?

Edward wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Edward wrote: ""Bambi" is another of my all time favorites. But, I only saw it emotionally. In reading of JDS I learned that he did permit a movie to be made of one of his books. How..."
The movie is not the same at all. Faline has a brother Gobo, who is missing in the movie.

Edward wrote: "The ducks still perplex me. It seems to me that the "expert" accepted interpretation of a natural migration is absolutely wrong. If JDS wanted to convey that he could have more effectively done tha..."

Great. He knows birds migrate South. Not only is he talking just about the DUCKS but also just the ones in Central Park South. So fit that into your equation.

Well Edward you are interpreting the book literally. I believe the book is an allegory. I think the DUCKS are a symbol.

I am not going to challenge you view...as we would not be talking the same language anyway.

Have fun.

Edward wrote: "Ducks are stated generically (not sure if that's the right word) as opposed to mallards or whatever other kinds of ducks there are, just as one would say people as opposed to Americans, Europeans, ..."

I guess there are more ways to view ducks. You can look at Donald Duck when he gets drafted. See message 6
You can see it as a pun for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

I think that Central Park South is significant especially since it isn't referred that way to the locals. He says it three times at least. In the book when he repeats himself like that it is important. Grand Army Plaza is there and I think this is significant to the allegory being about war...breaking the record (war is a "broken record"). This park commemorates the Battle of Bull Run. When Holden is thinking about the DUCKS and talking to the teacher he mentions "bull" four or five times, which I also think is important.

Edward wrote: "Are you saying that you see Central Park South as symbolic of war? If so, why does Holden, who wants to sty out of the cemetery keep going back there of his own volition?
..."

Have you read the introduction to this group?
I am interpreting the book through the lens of WW2 or war.

What does South Central Park have to do with war?
Well that is where the Grand (a word Holden says he hates) Army Plaza is there.

I do not hold to the premise that this book is about mental illness or teenage angst...it might be that too. But I think that the important message of the book is in the "code".

Here is the home page of the group.

Edward wrote: "looked at a map of Central Park and noticed a "pond" at the Southern end, while what they called a "lake" was more South Central. Does this lead you anywhere in terms of war? ..."

Have you found the Grand Army Plaza yet?
When Holden goes to the park he again repeats that he is going to Central Park South.


From wiki:
The portion of the street forming the southern boundary of Central Park from Columbus Circle at Eighth Avenue/Central Park West on the west to Grand Army Plaza at Fifth Avenue on the east is known as Central Park South. Entry into Central Park can be made at the Scholars' Gate at Fifth Avenue, the Artists' Gate at Sixth Avenue, the Artisans' Gate at Seventh Avenue, and the Merchants' Gate at Columbus Circle. Central Park South contains four famous upscale hotels: the Plaza Hotel, the Ritz-Carlton (Central Park), which is the flagship of the Ritz-Carlton chain, the Park Lane, and JW Marriott Essex House."

I plan to post something about this this week.

Edward wrote: "I had a strange thought about ducks today. As you point out, TCITR is clearly an allegory. Maybe Salinger was sending this message to whoever doubted the allegorical nature. “If it walks like a duc..."

Edward that is very clever! I think if it look like we got set up to fight in a war because we got the ax (fascism)...and many (I hate to say this because many were helped by FDR, but he was becoming despotic). Probably when you have a draft you have despotism involved on some level, right?

Edward wrote: "I don't know. I can fully understand your thoughts about FDR's possible despotism. The same criticism was aimed at Huey Long; another of my "heroes."

To me this is one of those unanswerable quest..."

I think that if the banks are going to create the depression. Then they are the ones that finance the elections. Then when they come up with a way out of a decade recessions is is probable to benefit them and give us hope. Seems like this is what the people always get is hope.


When Holden says he got the ax I think it is when FDR started talking and acting like fascist.

See this short video clip by the BBC:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=t...

IF THIS DOESN'T GO TO IT IT IS CALLED:

The Century Of The Self HAPPINESS MACHINE.

It reminds me of the movie Stand Up and Cheer with that Little Shirley Bean.

Edward wrote: "ne small disagreement. The banks do not want to cause a depression, or even a recession. In either event, their ability to collect on loans is diminished; and with their primary asset cast in doubt, their private equity interests fear having to go hat-in-hand to the federal government for help. Despite playable market fluctuations, most of the monied know though they at times doubt, that a conducive solution will invariably come, but at a price; further government controls.
..."

Ok Edward maybe I should have said federal reserve? See this documentary:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=t...
The documentary is called: THE SECRETS OF OZ

Also how about shorts? I thought when there is a depression money is king. Banks can get things cheap and then they can make money in the next cycle?

I may be speaking about things I don't know enough about, but am fascinated by it.

Edward wrote: "When China decides that it doesn't want to hold any more US paper, the shit will really hit the fan, like its never been previously seen.
..."

I totally agree with you here. Instead of when America gets a cold the world gets the flu it will be when China gets a cold the world (or US) will get the flu.

I will plead ignorance on what you have said before this because I think you probably know more than I do. I am just trying to fugue things out by poking the box.

I take it that you have issues with the documentary The Secrets of Oz? Or did you not like the clip from "The Century Of The Self? Have you heard of The Secrets Of The Federal Reserve?

Edward wrote: "Oh, I thought it was something on Youtube. Anyway, I did some research and found a website called; usagold.com/who-actually-owns-the-fed.... Its not overly long, ties in with my understanding, and debunks a few myths; particularly Mullins and someone named Kah.

Whether you agree with what they say or not is sort of irrelevant. I just recommend it because it is a good primer, affords a good understanding of the system, and therefore seems a good starting point to put other information in context.

The damn url doesn't work; so search "ownership of the federal reserve" and click on usagold, etc., etc. ..."

Ok I finished reading it. I don't know enough to comment on this intelligently. I found it interesting.

When I lived in Boston there was a company getting their sidewalk fixed. Because the streets are small bringing in a large cement truck was not practical. There was a man there filling the hole and he had a sizable cement truck. It had small quantities for small jobs. My husband said that was a great idea, and asked the man where do you get one of those trucks. The man answered that you have to be Italian, "gots to be!"

I am sure that just like Pencey Prep was grooming these kids to think a certain way and to be on the right side of the game and game players they can count on, so it is with the banking industry.

If you want to become president you "gots to be" related to the monarchs of England. Anyone can run but only a few are going to get the monetary backing and media support they need to win. In this way the system is a system that is control by an invisible hand.

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it must be a duck. You don't need to get a DNA test to figure that out.

As far as the Federal Reserve article he made it sound like they were a charitable institution. I don't see why we have the Federal Reserve if our own government has the power and ability to make its own money. Why did the Federal Reserve become necessary? If our own government money was failing how and who was undermining it? The Federal Reserve was created on the dawn before we entered WW1. I think this is significant. Why do you need a secret meeting on Jekyll Island if what you want to do is create a benefit? Were the people that "designed" the Federal Reserve, made of common people or people like George Washington, that were financially well off and interested in becoming more enriched and more powerful. This is why I think Holden calls the Revolutionary War cannon, "that crazy cannon".

This is a good discussion Edward. I wish I could actually hear a debate between Kay and Mullins on the one side and the Federal Reserve First-ers on the other.

Edward wrote: "It's safe to say that we live in this moment; seems a familiar phrase. The awards and the delusions that seemed so important are merely fading away. So, I wander through these rooms, ............"

I just realized that you may not get a notification that I wrote if I don't hit reply to your post. I used my own post as the reply so I didn't have to fiddle with it as much.