Jane Austen discussion

ending with Fanny's receipt of a proposal which she hopes to stop at its early stage

I wonder if Henry really is capable of loving Fanny, or if it's just the thrill of the chase that makes him think he's in love, seeing as she's the first woman he's met who doesn't fall for him?

Could he have changed for the better if she had accepted him? Or would he have carried on his flirtations once the novelty of winning her had worn off?
I guess we'll never know... though I'm inclined to think he would not have really changed deep down.

I think Henry would have eventually found true value for Fanny and settled down. I think this would inevitably have happened if Edmund had married Henry's sister. Fanny was already beginning to appreciate his reading and acting capabilities. She recognised his talent and after spending time with him at Portsmouth was beginning to feel less repelled by him, and was even beginning to think of a home for her and Susan with him.

I think he may always have been livelier than Edmund but I think she would have mellowed him .. Or maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic :)

I think Jane Austen’s take (or Fanny’s) is that nobody can really change unless the change is organic, coming from within. “The love of a good woman” would not be enough.

I know what you mean Abigail. I think Jane is wishfully thinking in writing that Henry Crawford may have changed in time, but his character was probably already fixed as a hopeless flirt or something much worse.

The more we discuss this book, the more I find things I had never considered.

One thing I noticed was that the first of the book was like a foreshadowing of parts of the last of the book.

When everyone was trying to get Fanny to go against her inclinations against being in the play... they nearly wore her down to the point of her agreeing to act. However, before that could happen, something interfered... the return of Sir Thomas.

Just as she was steady in her inclinations against Henry, she began to be worn down and actually began to consider him, especially if Edmund had married Mary. Then something happened... Henry's misstep with Maria.

To show the true core of Henry... when Maria was falling all over herself for him, he ignored her. Once she showed him a cold shoulder... he was aghast and had to win back her affection.

And, like a moth to a flame... he flew too close. Thus, his downfall... and he took with him, all that could have been his and Mary's.

J. W. wrote: "The more we discuss this book, the more I find things I had never considered.

One thing I noticed was that the first of the book was like a foreshadowing of parts of the last of the book.

Absolutely! I hadn't quite seen that pattern till you pointed it out. Another example of Austen's exquisite story structuring.

Amanda wrote: "I think Henry would have eventually found true value for Fanny and settled down. I think this would inevitably have happened if Edmund had married Henry's sister. Fanny was already beginning to app..."

It's possible...that's one of the things this novel leaves with me - wondering how things could have turned out differently if the characters had made different choices.

Nina... I am so glad you said that. Because, that is how JAFF variations are born... that 'what if' question that starts an author writing a different path for Austen's characters.

J. W. wrote: "to show the true core of Henry... when Maria was falling all over herself for him, he ignored her. Once she showed him a cold shoulder... he was aghast and had to win back her affection. ..."

I also think for a person of Henry's personality, turning the head of woman who is "spoken for" adds a challenge or adds "spice" (in a perverse way) to engaging Maria's affections. He turn away from Julia, who "available" and focuses on Maria.

J. W. wrote, “One thing I noticed was that the first of the book was like a foreshadowing of parts of the last of the book.”

Very true! Even the earliest passages about the children’s education come up right at the very end in an interesting way (I won’t give details here because they’re premature).

Speaking of JAFF variations with different outcomes, there’s an excellent MP variant by Sherwood Smith that I read recently called Henry and Fanny: An Alternate Ending to Mansfield Park. It doesn’t start at the beginning of MP, though, so if you want to read it, it’s best to do so right after reading MP. It’s very good.

In all these cases oppisites attract The attraction of Henry to Fanny (after his wicked plan fails and he fall s in love)is because she doesn't flirt back Darcy is attracted to lizabeth because she doesn t run after him Darcy and fanny are the quiet typy and Henry and Elizabeth lively. The same with Frank and Jane By the way with her options Jane did well to stick with Frank HE wasn't "bad" rather unthinking Henry is "bad" I wouldn't want him as a son in law

Abigail, I also read Mansfield Parsonage which was the canon story but through Mary's eyes. That was really different as we saw things through the filter of her perspective.

@ message 10: Andrea: I agree... Julia was not the challenge as her sister. Yep... Henry was a man who__ em... guess we can't say that here.

One of the things that make JAs characters seem real is they all have good qualities and more negative ones (or the other way around) Mary and Henry are attractive people Mary can also be kind as in her relationship to Fanny and both see the sad way she is treated by the Bertrams and Aunt Norris (how come Edmund doesn't see that? this is his negative characteristic his misunderstanding of other peoples motives will he be a n understanding parson even though he is basically kind?)

I agree with you Mrs. The genius of Jane Austen in creating these characters never seems to amaze me. In Mary / Henry she managed to create a duality to perfection. In some way they are the sparkling, vivacious antagonists to Fanny's and Edmund's dullness and constancy, yet they are not just simple "evil characters". Both of them possess plenty of good qualities and thus they have enormous potential, which sadly gets wasted. Also the attraction they feel towards Fanny/Edmund is actually to their credit, however, due to their upbringing and circumstances, they are incapable of change, especially a change that comes from within though it gets inspired externally. It is very sad, especially in Henry's case as he gets as close to changing as possible, but finally lets it all go to dust. Mary is a different case. She is much more unwilling to change. While Henry sees a challenge in trying to change, Mary wants Edmund to change for her - that is what she finds challenging.

It also strikes me how different the relationship-dynamics in Mansfield are to that of P&P. Elizabeth and Darcy both need to change to be able to unite at the end. Both Mary and Henry would need to change if they were to get Edmund and Fanny, but Edmund and Fanny themselves are constant and are neither willing to change nor seem to be capable of it, which for me is definitely a drawback and probably that is why I am kind "indifferent/unenthusiastic" about their pairing. Seems I like a challenge myself, like Mary and Henry. HAHA.

I don't think tis is a drawback at all I always wished my children to marry a cousin or "boy/girl next door"(or from the village we live in, they didnt) it makes for a strong marriage Fanny and Edmund will have a great marriage it seems to me sonwill Emma and knightly and so it seems Ellenoir and Edward (and I don't really like Edward myself)

i would have liked Edmund to marry Mary and Fanny to marry henry, i think they could both do with a little liveliness in their lives. the cross/necklace thing is a bit of a drawback, but i could overlook it by seeing it as the gifts of two 'brother' figures being united - after all, in real life jane's brother gave his sisters crosses and chains as well.

I think I mentioned that getting the perceptions of the time is one reason it’s fun to read Austen. This section drives home the how amazingly relevant her stories stay. I have always been in the liking the pairing of Henry and Fanny, but this time I am reading it with the #metoo movement ongoing, which didn’t really break out until after this read for the rest of you. Many of the complaints from #metoo have been an abuse of power, rather than a she said NO and he forced it on her. So, here I am listening to the proposal scene and thinking how unfair I have been to Fanny. She tells him to stop and he continues. He gives her great news about her brother, a favor, putting him in a position of power besides already being a man. I have never disliked Fanny, but I am definitely finding new admiration for her sticking to her laurels.

Good points, Joanna! I think this book is all about power and the privilege that comes along with it.

Abigail wrote: "Good points, Joanna! I think this book is all about power and the privilege that comes along with it."

Fanny certainly doesn’t have any power or privilege in any regard.

I think this is lost on “casual” JA readers who don’t fully understand the time-period, the culture and Fanny’s “position” or lack-there-of.
I just cringe when I read comments about “why doesn’t Fanny speak up?” Or criticisms for her passivity.

What in the world could Fanny have done?

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Good points, Joanna! I think this book is all about power and the privilege that comes along with it."

Fanny certainly doesn’t have any power or privilege in any regard.

I think t..."
Other Jane Austen heroines find it in them to speak up. Why can't Fanny? SIr Thomas for instance asks her if there is someone else - yet she can't even give a straight answer to a straight question. SIr Thomas has shown her nothing but kindness and consideration, she has no reason to be fearful of him.

I rarely join this conversation (even though this is the best and
deepest bookfor me ) because I get so annoyed at the readers who think regard and intrpet the book with todays culture in mind example how can a person even imagine Mary and Edmund being a good marraige match They only have sex appeal in commen and that is not enough for a stable and long lasting marriage onlyin today 's world can that be a suffient reason to marry (and then many devorce after they realize they dont belong togeather)

Mrs wrote: "I rarely join this conversation (even though this is the best and
deepest bookfor me ) because I get so annoyed at the readers who think regard and intrpet the book with todays culture in mind ex..."

Mrs.,

This is my favorite of JAs novels as well and for same reasons.

Fanny can’t speak up because she is a charity case, as shown clearly when she refuses Henry Crawford and is banished, returned to her original family for her defiance. Sir Thomas doubtless imagined he was being kind and fair to her by only sending her home instead of banishing her from the house without a penny (as would have happened in a Brontë novel!). She probably would have been left in Portsmouth, too, if Tom Bertram had not become so ill.

She is expected to be perpetually grateful and to serve the Bertram family obediently in whatever they require. Although she lives in a degree of comfort, she is essentially a white slave—and all the slavery-related allusions in the book imply that Jane Austen expected readers to see her in that light. She has neither rights nor resources. Other Jane Austen heroines have their families at their backs; they have homes and at least a little bit of money. Seen from that perspective, she is extraordinarily brave and ethical when she refuses to sell herself!

Abigail wrote: "Fanny can’t speak up because she is a charity case, as shown clearly when she refuses Henry Crawford and is banished, returned to her original family for her defiance. Sir Thomas doubtless imagined..."

Well said Abigail!

Fanny well knew she was a charity case! And her relatives were constantly reminding her that she should be grateful!

I just don't see how Fanny could have been "less" passive or mouthy to anyone at Mansfield Park or able to 'speak" her mind on much of anything.

I agree about Fanny. The situation has some similarities to Elizabeth and Mr. Collins, but in essentials it is very different, because of Fanny’s situation and because we want to like Henry. Mr. Collins is not drawn in a way to excite the reader’s sympathy. We are rooting for Elizabeth to turn him down.

One thing about Fanny that is that she doesn’t know how to communicate her opinion well. Besides Edmund, her opinion has not been sought out much, and this time it’s about her inclinations and future. Her note to Mary when Henry is standing there is confusing. Her discouragement to Henry when he proposes is confusing and it takes Sir Thomas a bit to understand her “no.” And that is part of the reason why Fanny is difficult to relate for most readers. We don’t empathize with characters that have trouble communicating as easily, and add Henry’s likability to the picture, Fanny does not stand much of a chance.

Who wants to like Henry? a man who flirts with an engaged woman in front of her fiance? I like Mary for her kindness but certainlydont want her to win Edmund Ifeelsorry for her warped mind and can imagine that after all this and living some years with Mrs Grant she changes and finds a decent man to have a happy marriage with But Henry? as JAwrites the men dont get there duewhenthey sin He is left to continue his lifestyle and the Bertrams espically Maria have the stain for life Henry(wickham and Wiiloughby ) are dangerous men for sociaty keep your daughters from the likes of them!

Mrs wrote: "Who wants to like Henry? a man who flirts with an engaged woman in front of her fiance? I like Mary for her kindness but certainlydont want her to win Edmund Ifeelsorry for her warped mind and can ..."

Mrs,

I didn’t like Henry either.

I cannot help liking Henry despite his many flaws - because Jane Austen just knew how to create compelling characters. He had a huge potential with all his abilities and I was sorry that it was wasted on flirting in general and on Maria in particular. But this is life... :)

I feel the same Melindam.

I am not saying you have to like Henry, but there is enough debate in this group to know that plenty of readers do or want to, especially at this stage in the novel.

Whether we like him or not, Henry is fun (so is Mary), while Fanny and Edmund, while virtuous and moral and good to the bone, just send me to sleep.
Yes, I know that I am stating this with my 21st century-sensibilities, but obviously, this I cannot help. :)

I think, as others have said, Fanny can't speak up for herself because she is expected to be eternally grateful for her privileged upbringing.
Also, I'm pretty sure telling her uncle, when he asks if she has someone else in mind, is a very bad thing to do. The one thing he never wanted to happen was for his sons to marry their cousin. If she told him she was in love with Edmund, he'd send her away, probably regretting his decision to take Fanny in the first place. He sends her away, anyway, but out of the thought that he's doing something good for her. I am pretty sure he'd have approved Julia marrying Henry but Fanny's possible marriage is probably just as great an opportunity to him because his niece is being married off to someone wealthy, thereby making him connected to more wealth. Maria marrying Rushworth is just the sort of connection he approves; Julia connecting herself to an alledged penniless gentleman not so much. Edmund marrying Mary would bring his son an additional 1000 pounds income per year, something he definitely approves of.
Sir Thomas only changes his mind when his daughter brings shame on his family and he realises that he was deceived in the people he thought were respectable (in their morals as well as their wealth). Only then he realises that money is not as important as moral values. So had Fanny spoken about her true feelings, it would have ended bad for her (being send away for good) while Henry and Maria would have run away anyway (because he sees a challenge in the cold manner she greets him with when they meet in London). Fanny would have gained nothing from any sort of revelation on her part.

Mrs wrote: "I rarely join this conversation (even though this is the best and
deepest bookfor me ) because I get so annoyed at the readers who think regard and intrpet the book with todays culture in mind ex..."

They have intelligent conversations, which makes their relationship interesting. I would have liked to see it develop more. Sir Thomas clearly has some qualms about Maria marrying Rushworth, he offers to break the connection for her, but Maria refuses his offer. He is not entirely insensitive to people's feelings, though with Maria he could have been more persistent. If Fanny had opened up to Sir Thomas - told him what had been going on, he would have had a clearer idea altogether about what Maria had been up to, and it might have averted disaster. It is not entirely his fault if nobody will tell him the truth about anything - he does give people the opportunity to do so. Henry suddenly running off with Maria I have always thought rather unconvincing - he clearly has had enough of her even before she marries Rushworth, that he would want to dig all that up again seems very unlikely.

Melindam wrote: "Whether we like him or not, Henry is fun (so is Mary), while Fanny and Edmund, while virtuous and moral and good to the bone, just send me to sleep.
Yes, I know that I am stating this with my 21st..."

Henry and Mary are fun. Edmund has possiblities I think - his exchanges with Mary are interesting, and I could see the attraction for her, but married to Fanny, oh dear, what a dull couple they will be! I can just imagine their parishioners scuttling to get out of their way, or not being at home when they call - "No, not the evergreens again!"

Melindam wrote: "I cannot help liking Henry despite his many flaws - because Jane Austen just knew how to create compelling characters. He had a huge potential with all his abilities and I was sorry that it was was..."

Cassandra Austen wanted Fanny to marry Henry, so he has always had his supporters.

Austen answers the questions later. She says that Henry would have won Fanny if he had not eloped with Maria. Edmund would have proposed to Mary, and Fanny would have not allowed herself to continue being in love with Edmund. And that it would have been the making of Henry.

I think Henry's attachment to Fanny has similarities to Willoughby's attachment to Marianne. Willoughby's flirtation leads to a genuine affection for Marianne, but in the end, Elinor's assessment is correct - that only the "inconveniences would have been different" if he married a woman he didn't care for but who was rich, versus marrying a poor girl for love.
Henry's motives for courting Fanny are not pure at first, but he does develop a genuine regard for her. However, I think we get a good picture of Henry's character in the way he responds to William Price's tales of his life in the navy. Henry admires William's character, his bravery and endurance of hardship and Henry's "heart was warm, his fancy fired", but the wish was "rather eager than lasting." He was, as Austen writes when he resumes flirting with Maria, he was "entangled by his own vanity". He did regret the loss of Fanny "when the bustle of intrigue was over", but, taken as a whole, Henry is inconstant throughout, and I'm not sure the indulgence of a lifetime could be reversed by marriage to Fanny.
Henry wants what he doesn't have, but, as most profilers will tell you, the best indication of future behavior is past behavior; the sort of domesticity that a marriage to Fanny would entail appeals to Henry the same way William's naval adventures do because they are so different from anything he's experienced, but I believe that his feelings for it would have been more eager than lasting.

Good insights, J.! I agree completely.

Abigail wrote: "I think Jane Austen’s take (or Fanny’s) is that nobody can really change unless the change is organic, coming from within. “The love of a good woman” would not be enough."

I completely agree, but I also think that maybe Henry would have been able to fully and naturally fall in love with Fanny. Likewise, I think she would have been able to fall in love with him. I think they could help balance each other out - Fanny would calm him down and help him to settle, whereas Henry could help Fanny be a little more exciting and happier.