Victorians! discussion

In chapter 1, we see that Silas and others are distrusted or treated poorly, because they were not "born and bred in a visible manner." Do you think this is true today with immigrants who come into other countries?

What seems the narrator's point in her remarks at the opening of the first chapter on the mindset of early nineteenth-century uneducated people?

Thank you Judy, you have helped me bring focus on what this book is about: someone alien entering a narrow-minded society of people with "untravelled thoughts".

I have had difficulties with these first few chapters and am not sure why I am reading this story. There is no love, no beauty, no wisdom. I can not relate to and I am not amused by the characters. But this must all be with a purpose and to create a contrast, so I am curiously reading on.

As usual I'm behind :). I've only just started, but it is a second reading for me. In just the few pages I've read, a few things stand out to me. The first was I was immediately struck by the beauty of her language. It's almost as if it should be read aloud for the shear joy of it.

The second was we've not learned anything. People that don't fit into our bubble of experience are suspicious. They are threatening or magical and frightening. We see it again and again throughout literature and actual history. Our internet access makes our bubbles smaller instead of larger for we seek only what interests us or follows our belief systems. Many find it uncomfortable to explore outside their bubble.

This book was required reading for me in the 9th grade many years ago....I wasn't sure at the time why it would be considered a high school read. The language is rich as with many classics.

As we see through the novel there are many themes one of which are human relationships, but there are many others. Some more subtle than others. There is also a fear of the unknown which we see in the beginning pages of Silas Marner when we see the weaver peaks the curiousity of the villagers....where is he from? who are his parents? does he really work alone?

We also see solitude which Eliot herself in the 1850's suffered rejection from one lover to another.

Another is Christianity in society which we know that this was a huge influence in Eliot's life. Growing up in a girls' boarding school where there was a strong connection to Evangelical Christianity or the Anglican church. We also know that Miss Lewis, who was a principal at one of these schools influenced Eliot and this is where Eliot adopted her strong religious devotion which dominated her youth. As she grew older and through life experiences, Eliot decided that she could no longer attend church. Her father refused to live with her on those terms, but three weeks later a reconciliation was arranged by her brother and Eliot agreed to attend church again, but keep her views agnostic views private. Neverthe less, she remained agnostic until her death.

Another theme is customs and traditions which we will later get into....and also the theme of industrialization on English society.

I hope that this helps a little bit when reading Silas Marner....it really does get better :)

Questions to think about from Chapter 2

Why is Marner drawn to collecting and dispensing herbal remedies? Why does he cease doing so? What does his refusal to sell remedies show about his character?

Why does he take to hoarding money? How are his responses to the gold described? Is he a capitalist in modern terms?

Deborah wrote: "People that don't fit into our bubble of experience are suspicious. They are threatening or magical and frightening. We see it again and again throughout literature and actual history."

Reading this section I was reminded of something I read or heard some time ago. In times past, before modern transportation was easily accessible to common folk, most people lived their entire lives within a radius of about 20 miles. So rural folk would travel to near-by towns to go to market to buy and sell, but for the most part, they would stay put. Traveling was cumbersome, and being exposed to the elements, rather unpleasant.

So when a stranger appeared in their midst, this was highly unusual. Folks new everyone not only in their own but in all the villages around them, and that's how they socialized and intermarried. But traveling someplace further, only traveling salesmen and nobility did that. So you had a familiarity with just about anyone around you, and the stranger in the midst upset this. They didn't know his history, his family, his parents, they didn't know who he was.

I think we find it hard even to imagine being settled in one place to this extent. From our perch we tend to look at this as rather limiting. But I have to wonder, because at the same time there is a bone-deep comfort that comes with being so rooted we can no longer replicate.

The depiction of Christianity is fascinating - the idea that it supersedes any other authority in Lantern Yard in deciding innocence or guilt in local matters is something I found shocking, and is particularly interesting given the comment about Eliot's own life and her questioning of religious authority and growing agnosticism.

The narrative works so cleverly to show how William plays this system to his advantage in order to frame Silas, and how any faith Silas had in the church is lost when it 'misjudges' him so gravely. His initial confidence that God will vindicate him because he knows the truth of his innocence is so genuine, and i found it fascinating to see this naïveté harden over the next 15 years.

I'd like to hope we see William get his comeuppance later on, but perhaps he'll get away with it, as Dunstan seems to have been getting away with his underhand ways for years.

Speaking of whom, aren't the Cass brothers great?! Such a lawless, feckless, godless pair - one a wimp (with a hint of a conscience but which ease and laziness seem to overpower) and Dunstan's just obnoxious - Eliot eases into his point of view to show us how he justifies his actions - 'Silas deserves to be robbed; it's practically the same as 'borrowing' his money' etc. What did anyone else make of them?

Attitudes to otherness are interesting also - yes, a physical difference seen as strange and something to distrust: these short, bent-over city-dwellers coming out to the countryside where they're not robust and hearty enough to do agricultural work so they have a skill such as weaving - which means they carry bags of cloth which is weird and strange and foreign. Tragicomic interpretation of anything that is different than what you're used to. Definitely something we still see in the world today.

Silas's love of his money is delightful - it's shiny and it gleams, and it's the only joy he has in his solitary life. It seems that it's his new idol, to be cherished and worshipped and protected, never spent. For me, it's his security and his higher power now, rather than a capitalist means of growth, expansion and display of wealth.

Interesting that in the social structure of Raveloe, religion alone is not the lawmaker: Silas goes to find the 'clergyman, the constable, and Squire Cass', the great people in the village to make his loss public, and knows the pub is where the powers and dignitaries who can pursue justice will be. He might be solitary, and keep himself to himself, but he is ready to participate in the civic system now.

Jen wrote: "The depiction of Christianity is fascinating - the idea that it supersedes any other authority in Lantern Yard in deciding innocence or guilt in local matters is something I found shocking, and is particularly interesting given the comment about Eliot's own life and her questioning of religious authority and growing agnosticism."

It should be shocking, since Silas's maltreatment is a mockery of "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself." What kind of Christianity is being played out here? Now I am not too well versed with British High Church and Low Church and all the variant confessions that sprung up since Henry VIII, but Silas's maltreatment smacks of fundamentalism where the lines between authentic faith and cult get blurry. Only in a fundamentalist setting, religious and secular, are civil rights suspended. This is especially grievous in England where you have the glorious history of the Magna Carta.

In Raveloe Silas encounters a more normal religious setting, and one senses immediately had he grown up here, he would have never been forced into exile. Yet he was formed by this misguided fundamentalist mindset, which in addition to his physical exile creates in him an internal exile as well. He keeps to himself and money becomes his idol.

You make a very valid point...even today, in the Midwest, there are still people who have not left the state and have traveled to other areas which is surprising to me. Yet, at the same time, I can clearly see what value there is in being part of a community family. Even we see Silas after his drops his old pot and forgets his herbs that he shrinks into the compass of his room.

Once again Eliot uses a general beginning, presenting the idea that "minds that have been unhinged from their old faith and love have perhaps sought this Lethean influence of exile, in which the past becomes dreamy because its symbols have all vanished, and the present too is dreamy because it is linked with no memories." This is addressed to the reader and part of Eliot's technique and serve as an important part of the novel as to guide the reader's response to the actions and characters and to channel thoughts in the desired direction. The author makes no attempt to hide behind the scenes This is the standard technique of Victorian fiction. The remarks draw the reader into the novel by connecting with the fictional character and world with the real through the person of the author as we are given not only the events but with the long process of the thoughts on the events.

We also see Silas compassionate to a woman with heart disease by bringing her herbs which the community does not accept turning Silas back into isolation and his gold. We also see that Silas does not desire wealth but the coins are considered friends to enjoy. The only side of human feelings that we see are saving pieces of his pot as a memorial.

A contrast which Eliot emphasizes is that beween the religious customs of Lantern Yard and Raveloe. It is apparent that religion here is slack. There is a church "which men gazed at lounging at their own doors in service-time." The women "seemed to be laying up a stock of linen for the life to come." as though hoarding in this life would help lay treasures in Heaven.

Note the nature images which Eliot uses such as comparing a man to an insect or a tree or the natural world to human society. Such images help to define the quality of the life of a person or of the community. IE, in Raveloe even the orchards look "lazy wtih neglected plenty." Silas seems to weave, "like the spider, from pure impulse, without reflection." His cloth is a "brownish web" Yet "the sap of affection was not all gone." as though affection should give sustenance as sap sustains the tree.

Chapters 3-4

From their conversation, what do we learn about the character and past of Godfrey and Dunstan? What is their relationship? Are there any symbolic meanings in the choice of names?

What details add interest to the narration of the theft of Silas's gold? Does the narrator intend to make any points about how major life changes occur?

Jen wrote: "The narrative works so cleverly to show how William plays this system to his advantage in order to frame Silas, and how any faith Silas had in the church is lost when it 'misjudges' him so gravely. His initial confidence that God will vindicate him because he knows the truth of his innocence is so genuine, and i found it fascinating to see this naïveté harden over the next 15 years. "

I think that's a very important point. Marner's entire ground of being is ripped apart when the God in whom he had placed his absolute trust had, it seemed to him, deserted him and come down on the side of falsehood and treachery and led this group, closer even than family, which had been the center of his life to reject and abandon him.

It is difficult to overestimate the importance of weaving to human civilization. Even today, the primary sources of clothing are weaving or animal skins. Each of us here is almost certainly (unless sitting naked in front of our computers, which given the record setting heat wave which is engulfing the Western US sounds pretty enticing) wearing clothing of woven cloth, planning to sleep tonight on sheets of woven cloth under (unless it's too hot) blankets of woven cloth, stepping out of bed onto carpets or throw rugs of woven cloth ... Weaving is, along with pottery and construction, one of the key technologies of civilization.

So while Marner was in some ways a (largely self-selected) outcast, he was still a vital member of the community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwWK...

Everyman wrote: "It is difficult to overestimate the importance of weaving to human civilization. Even today, the primary sources of clothing are weaving or animal skins. Each of us here is almost certainly (unless..."

Hahaha, thank you for the weaver song! :) :) :) (chuckle) Gosh, we are adding so many dimensions in this discussion. It is wonderful.

I just typed a whole section and lost it.........errr.....I hate when that happens.....I will add more tomorrow....spent a half an hour typing....lol

Godfrey comes from the meaning Peace of God....and Dunstan...Hill of Stone.....Dun meaning hill and Stan meaning stone....

Great discussion!!

What do we learn about Silas's neighbors from the conversation at the Inn? Does the narrator seem to enjoy recounting the scene? Why? Would you want to live in c. 1800 Raveloe?

Judy wrote: "I just typed a whole section and lost it.........errr.....I hate when that happens.....I will add more tomorrow....spent a half an hour typing....lol.."

I hate that. I've taken to protecting my longer posts. Either I highlight them all (Control-A in Windows) and save what I have (Control-S) every few minutes, or if I'm getting involved I'll copy what I have into Wordperfect, finish it there (it saves automatically every few minutes so I never lose much even if it crashes, which it never has), and then when I'm done copy and paste it back into my Goodreads window.

Occasionally I forget to do either and lose a long post and then I go off and kick myself.

Judy wrote: " Would you want to live in c. 1800 Raveloe?"

With no central heat, no running water, no indoor toilet, no refrigerator or freezer, no fresh fruits or vegetables most of the year, books costing a relative fortune, no vaccinations or aspirin or EMTs on call down the road? No thanks!

Though, wait a minute -- no computers, no cell phones, no social media, no talk radio -- I think I'd better think this out again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96rC4...

Everyman wrote: "It is difficult to overestimate the importance of weaving to human civilization. Even today, the primary sources of clothing are weaving or animal skins. Each of us here is almost certainly (unless..."

That's a great observation!
I had to think about my own ancestry in southern Germany. Having a loom for supplemental income was very common 100+ years ago, and my family was no exception. The region called Allgäu, just north of the Alps, used to be called "blaues (blue) Allgäu" because it was a flax (plant from which linen is produced) growing region and flax blooms blue. Today it is mostly dairy.

Hoping to start this maybe tomorrow-only a little delayed! Love the songs, Everyman. The Clancys become Scottish and then that fabulous song from 'Oliver'.

Oh I hate losing long posts - or even short, Judy! Also, thank you for the meanings of the names.

Kerstin, I love the idea of Blaues Allgäu, the name coming from the blue of the flax. Wonderful!

I love the weaving facet to the narrative too - it's industry and its labour but it's also a skill, and this seems to put Silas in a social strata of his own, further dividing him from Raveloe life but also elevating him somewhat as he sells quality cloth to the wealthy women of the area.

I'm visiting my homeland in Yorkshire in the UK at the moment, and went to visit the newly reopened Piece Hall in Halifax this week. It's a local shopping and cultural centre now, with exhibition spaces, but there's a museum area showing what it was like as a 19th century trade hall for the local textile industry. The museum was fascinating - i had no idea the local cloth merchant earned vastly more than a doctor!

http://www.thepiecehall.co.uk/

The place is like an elaborate roman amphitheatre - beautiful and very impressive!

Jen wrote: "i had no idea the local cloth merchant earned vastly more than a doctor! ."

If you look at the paintings of the upper class people of the time (or read the novels of the period!), it's very clear that a lot of quite expensive fabric was needed for all the dresses, evening clothes, etc. of these men and women. There's a wonderful scene in Cranford, for example, where the women are talking over the latest fabrics for a dress they're going to make.

Still behind, but should catch up quickly.

Silas lost all sense of belonging and security when he was basically shunned. He also lost the security he felt in his religious beliefs. He's isolated and unaccepted in his new home. People who are in that position some times turn to possessions for comfort - seeing that possession as a friend. It's a safe friend as possession neither hurt or betray.

I think it was fairly common, at least here in New England, for the church and the wealthy to be seen as the system of justice. Both are most like.y more highly educated than the populace. The feudal system in England would also create that type of environment.

Fabrics would be in great demand. Just think how many yards it would take to make those voluminous dresses. While the community may not be comfortable with Silas, his skills are valued.

Judy wrote: "This book was required reading for me in the 9th grade many years ago....I wasn't sure at the time why it would be considered a high school read. The language is rich as with many classics.

As we..."

I am impressed by the schools and curriculum if this is or was required reading in school. The language is at a very advanced level, isn't it?

Is it still read in schools and how many others had this as required reading?

Charlotte wrote: "Judy wrote: "This book was required reading for me in the 9th grade many years ago....I wasn't sure at the time why it would be considered a high school read. The language is rich as with many clas..."

It wasn't required for me back in the day. I read it on my own in my 30s

Charlotte wrote: "Judy wrote: "This book was required reading for me in the 9th grade many years ago....."

It was also required reading for me in 9th grade. Late 1950s.

Just catching up on this today-enjoying the comments so far. I particularly enjoyed how Elliot shows us the isolated, odd and somewhat intimidating character of Silas Marner, and then gives us his backstory to explain how he came to be the stranger in his town, and to show how a previously loving and trusting young man could end up as a lonely miser.

This was never required reading for me. My teenagers read Dickens' Great Expectations in grade 9, which I'm thinking would be an equivalent level of challenge.

Oh poor Silas! He can't catch a break! The creature who poses as his best friend while in Lantern Yard essentially feeds poor old Silas to the lions and then, having managed to get rid of him, he steals his erstwhile girlfriend. Silas is well away from these so-called 'Christians'.

I had been breathing a sigh of relief as a result of his move. True, he is isolated, but his business is appreciated (I think!) and no one interferes with him until the advent of the thief, that is. This fine specimen of humanity is none other than the delight that is a certain young man by the name of Dunstan Cass. Now here we have a horror of the first order. Mr Marner busily weaves away all day long and it's really hard work (yes I tried it once) and he relaxes by cherishing his shiny gold coins. What else does he have? Friends? No. Even his pot has seen better days! I'm upset. When they manage to apprehend him, I hope that they throw away the key!

I wasn't sure I'd be able to read this book although I really wanted to, especially since Middlemarch is one of my favourite novels. As it happens, I started this morning, and didn't stop :0)

Catching up on the very interesting comments!

What fascinates me is how these small social nucleus function. The fear of the foreign, or simply of the uncommon is so deeply ingrained. As some have posted, the role of religion is huge, as is superstition, to the point that they seem to merge together. To me, it all seems more like a structure that offers 'order' and stability than anything else...

I felt really sad for Silas and his trials in these first chapters, wondering where it would all go. As for the brothers, they are truly 'ugly', Eliot showing us their reasoning. Funny how both find a logic that validate their 'actions'.

Yes, it's hard to imagine how isolated people could be from others and how, in choosing to move to that village, Silas could spend his entire life in one small location only seeing a limited number of people and even them only rarely.