Guardian Newspaper 1000 Novels discussion

Hello all! Here is the thread for this month's Comedy - The Pickwick Papers! I have a copy and started already, but might not finish before the end of the month. Either way - I'll be here discussing!

Who all is joining?

I am! I have read this once before years ago and thought it was dull but am enjoying it a lot this time!

Since this was published originally as a serial, it is a great novel to read in snippets (1-2 chapters at a time). I just mention that in case anyone is intimidated by the length of the book.

I found the first chapter quite off-putting - the minutes or description of the meeting of the Pickwick Club. Once Mr. Pickwick and his friends start their journeys, the book improves imo.

Leslie wrote: "I found the first chapter quite off-putting - the minutes or description of the meeting of the Pickwick Club. Once Mr. Pickwick and his friends start their journeys, the book improves imo."

I agree. After reading Chapt. I, I thought, 'wow, I may not be able to hang on to this runaway train.' Chapter II is a lot different, and better, I think.

I plan on reading just a couple of chapters a day--I think that's about all I can handle at the moment. But base on what I've read so far, I think I'm going to enjoy it, as long as Dickens doesn't overdo it. Chapter II walked the fine line for me between understatement and trying to hard. I think I liked Winkle's thoughts the best as he was headed toward the duel, and how eager everyone was (even Snodgrass) to see the thing through.

I've liked what I've read so far, 'watching and imagining' the series of related and unrelated events.

Winkle and Snodgrass add so much life just by being around Pickwick and I'm loving the banter between them as none can do without each other. It's funny and enjoyable, esp. the fact that we members are in this together, much like the characters in the book.

Reading 2 chapters a day which means finishing this book in August will be a challenge but hey I'm looking forward to doing so!

I found my copy of the World's Classics paperback, and will make this my 'non-Kindle' book of the month (if I can).

I saw one Kindle edition was over 1,000 pages. I think my p.b. clocks in around 700 pp.

Chapter II still seems like a high point to me, though I did like this paragraph from Chapter IV:

"There are very few moments in a man's existence when he experiences so much ludicrous distress, or meets with so little charitable commiseration, as when he is in pursuit of his own hat. A vast deal of coolness, and a peculiar degree of judgment, are requisite in catching a hat. A man must not be precipitate, or he runs over it; he must not rush into the opposite extreme, or he loses it altogether. The best is, to keep gently up with the object of pursuit, to be wary and cautious, to watch your opportunity well, get gradually before it, then make a rapid dive, seize it by the crown, and stick it firmly on your head: smiling pleasantly all the time as if you thought it as good a joke as anybody else."

I think the periodical nature of the book is pretty evident--it seems episodic. And 'the dismal man's' tale of the dying clown is pretty hideous, actually; as much as the story of the returning convict is melodramatic. This mixture of humor, melodrama, and grim reality dovetails pretty well with my assumptions about what the newspaper-reading public of Dickens' day would have appreciated.

I liked the hat chasing bit too Bryan! And the scene at the start of Chapter 4 in which Mr. Pickwick and his friends get caught in the military show/exercise is pretty funny.

For me, the interspersed stories by others (such as the dying clown & returned convict) are the parts I like least. I think that these get fewer as the book progresses (or maybe I just got better at skimming them).

Here is one of the original illustrations by Robert Seymour, showing Dr. Slammer confronting Mr. Jingle in Chapter 2:

I had downloaded the free book from Amazon, but I also have an old copy that I'm reading for now--I noticed the download had some of the pictures, but not as many as the physical book. In the book, there's a drawing of Mr. Pickwick chasing his hat. Did you see that one?

http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus...


I don't know how to paste a picture in the comments

If you click on the "(some html is ok)" at the top right of the comment box, it explains how to do that and several other things. But the link also works fine!

My illustrated Kindle edition didn't have this one so thanks for mentioning it!

I gotta try this:

PS- I am way behind everyone else, but this is my favorite excerpt so far:

'The CHAIRMAN was quite sure the hon. Pickwickian would withdraw the expression he had just made use of.
'Mr. BLOTTON, with all possible respect for the chair, was quite sure he would not.
'The CHAIRMAN felt it his imperative duty to demand of the honourable gentleman, whether he had used the expression which had just escaped him in a common sense.
'Mr. BLOTTON had no hesitation in saying that he had not—he had used the word in its Pickwickian sense. (Hear, hear.) He was bound to acknowledge that, personally, he entertained the highest regard and esteem for the honourable gentleman; he had merely considered him a humbug in a Pickwickian point of view. (Hear, hear.)
'Mr. PICKWICK felt much gratified by the fair, candid, and full explanation of his honourable friend. He begged it to be at once understood, that his own observations had been merely intended to bear a Pickwickian construction. (Cheers.)'

(I think Chas. Dickens had some experience as a parliamentarian reporter before he started the Pickwick Papers).

But this is just so true, that "members of the club" can address one another in ways that "non-members," using the same language, would cause offense by.. and "which" club doesn't matter.

Leslie wrote: "If you click on the "(some html is ok)" at the top right of the comment box, it explains how..."

Thanks for the heads-up!

I'm just starting this one tonight! :)

I'm through Chapter XIV--is everyone else reading straight through, or a couple chapters a day? I think that for me, reading two chapters a day had made the book more enjoyable than if I had read straight through. I'm not sure I agree with Pickwick in the Guardian's list, though I wouldn't argue against it either. I'm finding the book charming and even laughing out loud occasionally, but I think it has some flaws as well--which are a bit camouflaged since I'm only reading short pieces at a time. Some of the gags are bit obvious and were probably even old when Dickens was writing, but he still makes them entertaining if I just go with it.

I did like the kissing babies conversation between Slumkey and Perker. The whole election scene was pretty good.

I did get a laugh out of the Blues and the Buffs & all the partisanship of Eatanswill!

Bryan wrote: "I'm through Chapter XIV--is everyone else reading straight through, or a couple chapters a day? I think that for me, reading two chapters a day had made the book more enjoyable than if I had read s..."

I am done, having started early, but I did a bit every day -- maybe 2-3 chapters at a time.

I agree that this has some flaws but you have to remember that it's Dickens first major work. I suspect that due to the serial nature of the publication and its deadlines there were times when he wasn't quite prepared and used odd bits that he had lying about to fill in.

Bryan wrote: "I'm through Chapter XIV--is everyone else reading straight through, or a couple chapters a day? I think that for me, reading two chapters a day had made the book more enjoyable than if I had read s..."

Hey, if one chapter a day helps with Austen, two chapters a day must help with Dickens.

Although I've been resistant to Dickens's charm my entire life, nearly, I've always heard that The Pickwick Papers is in some ways his best novel- that is, most charming or most entertaining.

Structurally, it's 'picaresque,' i.e., all over the place.

I remember doing an audiobook of this years ago, only I'm not sure how far I got.

I remember liking Oliver Twist quite a bit, but not so much Great Expectations or Tale of Two Cities. There was an excellent BBC adaptation of Bleak House not too long ago, with Gillian Anderson that makes me feel like reading the book would be redundant, or even less satisfying.

I never really had any intention of reading Pickwick, even when it came up here--but I looked at an old partial set of Dickens' works that I bought a long time ago at some sale, and Pickwick was included there, so I joined in. I'm glad I did--it's fun. Other than David Copperfield, I hadn't expected to read any more of Dickens' works because I figured I had sampled him enough and I still have yet to read so many other authors for the first time that it looked like a time management issue for me.

But--and after reading the Austen books over a long stretch--I've found I really like reading these classics when I read a chapter or two in the morning, before I start my day. I almost feel like I'm sneaking them in, because they don't impact any of my regular reading that way. That and having a group to read them with, which also helps enormously. I can see reading the rest of Dickens output this way, and probably some of the other older classics that I've been shirking (Trollope anyone?)

Leslie wrote: "I agree that this has some flaws but you have to remember that it's Dickens first major work."

I agree--I'm not really faulting Dickens for just getting his wings under him. Just that I was a little surprised that this was a pick by the Guardian to be included in their list of 1000. Not a lot surprised--I think Pickwick could be argued for or against inclusion.

ETA: I see you gave it two stars--that almost sounds like you feel similar?

Bryan wrote: "Leslie wrote: "I agree that this has some flaws but you have to remember that it's Dickens first major work."

I agree--I'm not really faulting Dickens for just getting his wings under him. Just th..."

That was my original rating, based upon my first reading many years ago. This time around, I gave it 3*

Through Chapter XVIII--Didn't see Mrs. Bardell coming back on the scene like that! Just when Pickwick wants to browbeat his fellow Pickwickians over their lady troubles, he gets a little bit of his own.

And somehow I doubt we've seen the last of Jingle.

How is everyone doing? Where are you now?

I am through chapter XXVI--still reading my two chapters every morning with my first cup of coffee :)

I'm enjoying it--sometimes the episodic nature of the book shows through a little too much, but now that Sam Weller has been added to the cast, it's added some depth. It's almost as if Dickens really didn't know what to do with Winkle, Snodgrass and Tupman, even though I still liked Winkle's near-duel. I think the Pickwick/Weller combination fits into a kind of literary form--I've never read the Jeeves stories by Wodehouse, but that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of. The oblivious master and wise servant. It almost reads as if Dickens was writing by the seat of his pants, and stumbled onto this convention and was glad to get it.

Anyway--still going along at my tortoise pace, and still enjoying it.

I'm at bit slow, back at XVII, but going and enjoying it. I don't find every episode to be funny, but some have had me laughing at loud, so at least i can agree with the comedy categorization!

I found that as it went along, it developed more into a continuous plot and I started reading more at a time.

Bryan - I love the comparison of Pickwick/Wells to Wooster/Jeeves. Pickwick isn't as clueless as Bertie Wooster nor Sam as smart as Jeeves but the dynamic is very similar!

Still plodding along--Now our intrepid Pickwickians are at Bath, and Winkle is on the run.

Interesting bit I thought about the courts and the trial--Dickens really blasted this sort of thing in Bleak House, at least according to the BBC miniseries of it I saw (which I highly recommend, but I probably said that before).

Anyway--I was also reminded a little bit of The Trial--both depictions of 'The Law' make it plain it's no place for the little guy.

Yes, Dickens clearly had a poor opinion of the English legal system of his time!

What a trickster Jingle is. Had a feeling about him right from the start. His characteristic speaking style is etched in my mind - 'very'! His entry adds a bit of action into the chapters. In contrast Pickwick seems to end up with a lot of explaining esp. with the ladies while Jingle manages to charm. My laugh out loud moments here!

There are some very sad, melancholic bits too for a comedy novel. Am on chapter 24, I'm beginning to wonder the time I'll take to finish this book.

Getting a bit anxious now with September reads kicking in. Any suggestions for speed reading? How do you all do it?

Bilwa wrote: "What a trickster Jingle is. Had a feeling about him right from the start. His characteristic speaking style is etched in my mind - 'very'! His entry adds a bit of action into the chapters. In contr..."

I kind of wish there were (or maybe there is) an abridged version that omitted all the stories like the raving guy on his death bed.

There seems to be a good story here padded out with a lot of 'extraneous matter,' not to use a more dismissive term.

I admire Bryan for reading two chapters in the morning, but I just don't feel that committed to Dickens (and I did get through most of it on audio several years ago).

Bear in mind that I put aside Ulysses about half way back in June when everyone else plowed ahead.

Desultory is the way I proceed up Mt. Readmore.

Christopher wrote: Desultory is the way I proceed up Mt. Readmore.

I guess that's what makes this laborious - the unnecessary bits! As suggested will go a bit easy on the reading and try out audio reading. Thanks Christopher.

I finished chapter 46 this morning, which left on a bit of a cliffhanger--well, more like I was really interested to see how it was going to come out. But I knew if I read one more, I'd convince myself to finish, and I didn't really have the time. I may finish tomorrow--only six more chapters, I think, so that might be doable. We'll see how much of a cliffhanger is at the end of 48.

I've enjoyed all of this--even the side stories. I thought all of it has been very entertaining, good-hearted fun, with a little bit of the social consciousness Dickens would really get into later in his career. We already talked about law, but the poorhouse gets its treatment too.

We haven't really talked much about where this novel is in Dickens' career--it was his first major success. I like this from Wikipedia:

"His novels, most published in monthly or weekly instalments, pioneered the serial publication of narrative fiction, which became the dominant Victorian mode for novel publication. The installment format allowed Dickens to evaluate his audience's reaction, and he often modified his plot and character development based on such feedback."

This I knew, but I think we can really see this in Pickwick. That's why I felt that Sam Weller was something Dickens lucked into--I wouldn't be surprised to think that at the beginning, he didn't necessarily see that character coming along in that way. Winkle is the only one of the three Pickwickians to make much of a indent in the story, after Tuppman has his little fling with the old aunt. After that, both he and Snodgrass are pretty well ignored.

Since there are 52 chapters, I assume this ran for a straight year, and some of the action seems to parallel the seasons--the Christmas story sticks out most to me. I wonder if some of the side stories don't dovetail with other seasonal ideas.

This is kind of a hard book to discuss. I feel like I keep saying, 'yep, I like it', but there's not much I can say beyond that (says the guy who just wrote half-a-dozen paragraphs about it.)

Bryan wrote: "I finished chapter 46 this morning, which left on a bit of a cliffhanger--well, ..."

Wow! you are on chapter 46. You've summarised this book so well. I can now see why the side stories and certain characters emerged along the way. For me there are high points, low points, and matter-of-fact-moments which seem like a documentary. Your review will help me read the rest of the chapters with a bit more care and thought now that I have finished 50% of the novel.

For some reason I thought there were only 52 chapters but actually there are 57. I had a thought of finishing today, but with it being a bit longer than I realized, I'll probably wait until Monday or so.

Dickens seems to be a bit slow in winding this up--It makes me wonder if at any time he knew where he was going with this thing. I'm sure he had ideas, but it still seems to me that he's writing by the seat of his pants most of the time (which is still better writing than most!) I can't imagine having a weekly deadline like that, and filling out the novel as you go along. Even if he had a really good outline to go by, I know he often changed course depending on what his reader's response was. I'm pretty sure it was Great Expectations where he finished the book, and the readers were so upset with the ending that he rewrote it to give it the 'uplift' people wanted.

Pickwick has been more enjoyable to me than Great Expectations, which I was ambivalent about (though I read it about 35 years ago, so who knows what I'd think today). GE seemed like such a downer all around--I never understood why that one seemed to capture people's emotions. Oliver Twist, on the other hand, is rather iconic, with all its descriptions of the London slums, and the 'Please Sir, may I have some more'. I thought that David Copperfield was the only Dickens I had left on my 'round toit' list, but I can see myself reading the rest of his stuff, especially the way I've went about reading Pickwick. I guess I'd convinced myself that I 'knew all about' Dickens from what I'd already read, but I guess I'd forgotten about reading just for enjoyment somewhere along the way, and Pickwick has reminded me of it.

I am another reader who doesn't understand why Great Expectations is so popular - I like several of his books much better than that one.

I'm on chapter 40 and must tell you all that my interest in it is waning and am hanging on to this book only because I'm committed to finish it. Can't wait to get to the end.

Having said that I'd found it amusing in parts and what would have held my interest was some character development. My highlights are the second chapter, encounters with Jingle, Samuel Weller's repartee- esp. his valentine letter, Pickwick's helpless self with the ladies' he meets from time to time.

Overall I'd recommend people to read it as it is episodic and to read it sporadically to stay interested. Genuinely this book deserves a 3 because it is amusing, however some character development, interesting plots, an abridged version minus the sad stories would have taken it to 4.

I finished up just this morning--I have to say I probably enjoyed it most out of those who've been posting here. For me, I think reading just two chapters a day made it work--rarely did I feel the desire to read more (only once or twice), yet it was also very pleasant to open up the book each morning and read a little bit with my first cup of coffee.

I think that if this had been the main thing that I was reading, I wouldn't have been able to appreciate it as well--I think I would have gotten tired of the style.

Now, if in the future, I could just know beforehand which books to put into the 'read-all-at-once' category, and those to put into the 'read-a-little-bit-each-morning' category, I could really maximize my reading pleasure.

Bryan wrote: "I finished up just this morning--I have to say I probably enjoyed it most out of those who've been posting here. For me, I think reading just two chapters a day made it work--rarely did I feel the ..."

That is awesome Bryan. Congratulations!!

Thanks! Were you able to power through it, or are you still finishing up?

I peeked at your profile--I see you are already reading The God of Small Things and One Hundred Years of Solitude. I think it would be hard to try and shoehorn The Pickwick Papers in with those as well. I won't be home until the first week in September, but I'm planning on reading both of those too.

Thanks for enquiring Bryan. I finished reading Pickwick Papers! (yay!) Just can't believe I ploughed through 57 chapters - thank you all for those lively discussions. I have begun reading The God of small things and will keep 100 years for later.

But what an end to the Pickwick saga! it's all well that ends well.' I had an OMG! moment with Jingle turning over a new leaf. A big aww to magnanimous Pickwick. He suddenly turned into Winnie the Pooh for a moment. His partnership with Sam was delightful.

Very pleased that the Pickwick club was dissolved! The readers' wishes were granted after all - Thank you Dickens :-)

Congrats on sticking with it. It was a fun read, and a satisfactory (if maybe a tad too neat) ending. I kept expecting Tupman to rendezvous with the old aunt that he'd been courting at the beginning, but he seemed to settle into bachelorhood pretty easily.

Well, I'll probably see you over at the God of Small Things discussion later on in the month

Oh yes! The old aunt totally forgot about her and Tupman. That would have thrown in a few more laughs.

See you again with TGOST

Bryan wrote: "Congrats on sticking with it. It was a fun read, and a satisfactory (if maybe a tad too neat) ending. I kept expecting Tupman to rendezvous with the old aunt that he'd been courting at the beginnin..."

Oh, that would have been fun!

Leslie--are you going to be reading any of the Sept. nominations?

Bryan wrote: "Leslie--are you going to be reading any of the Sept. nominations?"

I have already read both of them and won't be rereading at this time. I have nightmare memories of reading One Hundred Years of Solitude. Having a discussion thread to talk out questions would have been an immense help so hopefully you guys will have a better time of it than I did!