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Mansfield Park 2017 Discussion > vol 3, ch. 13-end

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message 1: by SarahC, Austen Votary & Mods' Asst. (new)

SarahC (sarahcarmack) | 1473 comments Mod
This section concludes the Mansfield Park discussion.


message 2: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments I liked the symmetry of Austen’s tidying-up. We started at Mansfield Park with the children’s education—the sisters mocking Fanny for her ignorance—and wound up with Sir Thomas recognizing the defects in his children’s education. The “romance” aspect is certainly low-key, but I have to believe that their shared values will make for a good partnership between Fanny and Edmund.


message 3: by Louise (new)

Louise Culmer | 111 comments i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as a couple is a daunting prospect - unlevened seriousness and dullness. I have hopes of susan though, i always thought she would probably marry Tom and invigorate the Bertram bloodline.


message 4: by J. W. (new)

J. W. Garrett (jeannewallacegarrett) | 59 comments I can see where you might think that. Remember, we are looking through the lens of modern sensibilities. Fanny may not think marriage to Edmund in terms of seriousness and dullness. Remember she came from a childhood home of too many children and chaos to the quiet peaceful Bertram home.

She and Edmund may not want to invigorate the Bertram line. Maria and Tom are most capable of doing that. So, we have to look at what does Fanny want? She wants Edmund and I personally think she will be perfectly happy. It is all she has ever wanted.


message 5: by Andrea AKA Catsos Person (last edited Sep 02, 2017 02:33PM) (new)

Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as a couple is a daunting prospect - unlevened seriousness and dullness. I have hopes of susa..."

Louise,

Your idea of a pairing of Tom and Susan sounds like in intriguing web FF! If I had any turn for writing stories, I'd write it myself and give you credit for the idea.

I like Fanny, but I don't think she or Edmund are lively enough to crave exhilaration in marriage.

Edmund's has had his experience with with excitement via his attraction/fling with vivacious and sophisticated Mary Crawford.

I think that experience will make him content and happy with Fanny.


message 6: by J. W. (new)

J. W. Garrett (jeannewallacegarrett) | 59 comments Tom and Susan... now that is a 'what if' I've not seen before. I think she could handle Tom. And, just perhaps this little escape of his will make him more willing to take his place as the head of his family when the time comes. Susan could probably slide right into the position of Mistress of the Manor with no problems. A little training and she would know just what to do. Plus, she wouldn't have Mrs. Norris hanging around to give her grief. Not that she would take it from Mrs. Norris. Now that would be a confrontation that I would like to see. Hello...


message 7: by Nina (new)

Nina Clare | 58 comments Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as a couple is a daunting prospect - unlevened seriousness and dullness. I have hopes of susa..."

I'd never thought of Susan and Tom...


message 8: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments See, now you all have me imagining an erotic Fanny-Edmund marriage story in which Edmund tries to enact with Fanny fantasies he had about Mary, and Fanny, to cure him of that tendency, comes up with even more imaginative activities. I did NOT need that in my head!


message 9: by Lona (last edited Sep 03, 2017 06:11PM) (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments A Susan/Tom match-up has been done. I think it's Joan Aiken's Mansfield Revisited.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Abigail wrote: "See, now you all have me imagining an erotic Fanny-Edmund marriage story in which Edmund tries to enact with Fanny fantasies he had about Mary, and Fanny, to cure him of that tendency, comes up wit..."

I wasn't trying to say that. I reread what I said above about Edmund and Fanny as a couple after his interest in the exciting Mary. I was trying to say that would be happy to NOT be on the emotional roller coaster" with Fanny as a calm marital partner. Stability and reliability of Fanny.


message 11: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments I didn’t think you were, Andrea! It was just where my mind went with the “crave exhilaration” comment. Too many years of copyediting porn for a living has poisoned my imagination. Since I’m not at all a sexy person myself, it’s more annoying to me than otherwise!


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Abigail,

I am aware that my written communication is not always clear.

I thought maybe i a gave an impression of Edmund and Fanny going wild and crazy after Edmund was hot for Mary and had to give her up!


message 13: by Louise (new)

Louise Culmer | 111 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as a couple is a daunting prospect - unlevened seriousness and dullness. I hav..."

perhaps. i would have found it more interesting if he had married Mary and Fanny had married Henry. a Fanny/Edmund marriage seems very dull to me. I can imagine their parishoners making haste to get out of the way when they see them coming.


message 14: by J. W. (new)

J. W. Garrett (jeannewallacegarrett) | 59 comments Lona wrote: "A Susan/Tom match-up has been done. I think it's Joan Aiken's Mansfield Revisited."

Thanks Lona for the reference. I've added it to my wish-list.


message 15: by Melindam (last edited Sep 06, 2017 04:39AM) (new)

Melindam | 170 comments Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as a couple is a ..."

The reason I felt/feel the Fanny-Edmund relationship very unconvincing (if not unsatisfactory) is that while a great chunk of the book is dedicated to Edmund's and Mary's feelings for each other, Fanny's & Edmund's relationship is summed up in 1 page more or less. He behaves like a loving brother to Fanny until the penultimate page and then we reach the end. OK, definitely there is safety, trust & dependability, but zero sexual attraction. Fanny seems to be unable to cope with more passionate feelings.


message 16: by Nina (new)

Nina Clare | 58 comments Melindam wrote: "Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as..."

I know what you mean, it's hard to see Edmund and Fanny romantically, and the brother/sister, first cousins dynamics makes it even harder. But perhaps Austen wanted to show a different kind of love? A successful marriage based on mutual respect and friendship rather than sexual attraction. If only we could ask her...!


message 17: by Melindam (new)

Melindam | 170 comments Nina wrote: "Melindam wrote: "Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Ed..."

I am sure that after P&P, JA wanted to experiment in her literary laboratory & write something different with a totally different kind of heroine in a different world with different aspirations and relationships. :)


message 18: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments Speaking of the ending, how do you feel, not just about who ended up with who, but about the tone of the ending? Austen's books, except for maybe Persuasion, tend to have a "hurry up and let's get this thing over with" feel at the ending, don't they?
Or maybe it's like a camera pulling back, so fewer details are sketched in.


message 19: by Andrea AKA Catsos Person (last edited Sep 15, 2017 08:24AM) (new)

Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Lona wrote: "Speaking of the ending, how do you feel, not just about who ended up with who, but about the tone of the ending? Austen's books, except for maybe Persuasion, tend to have a "hurry up and let's get ..."

I'm not in the Edmund/Mary or Fanny/Henry camp.

I'm happy for Fanny, but I agree that JA rushes the end of her novels. It's as if she's sick the novel and doesn't want to spend any more time on them.

I feel sorry for Mary. Having known a really good young man whom she realizes would have been a good husband, I think may have raised her hopes in what she wants in a marriage. She's so committed to the fashionable life, she may not find the a man who would be like Edmund as a husband among the fashionable set. She may have to "settle" for a man from that set who will not fulfill her desires for the type of marriage she hopes for, having known Edmund and "settle" for a "fashionable" marriage.


message 20: by Nina (new)

Nina Clare | 58 comments Lona wrote: "Speaking of the ending, how do you feel, not just about who ended up with who, but about the tone of the ending? Austen's books, except for maybe Persuasion, tend to have a "hurry up and let's get ..."

I like the wry humour of Austen's voice at the end. You could say she gives a reason for her quick endings in declaring that she is "impatient to restore everybody, not greatly in fault themselves, to tolerable comfort and have done with all the rest." And that, I suppose, is exactly what she does. She gives everyone who deserves it (by their goodness or their repentance) their happy ending, ties up all the story lines swiftly and neatly, and promptly banishes the 'bad' guys.
I find it a satisfying ending, the ironic humour of the author prevents it from being too sentimental or moralistic. Austen gets the tone just right for me.


message 21: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments I think her hurried endings are a way of telling us, the readers, that the point is not the happily-ever-after; the point is the moral growth (or lack thereof) of the characters.


message 22: by Nina (new)

Nina Clare | 58 comments Abigail wrote: "I think her hurried endings are a way of telling us, the readers, that the point is not the happily-ever-after; the point is the moral growth (or lack thereof) of the characters."

I agree. Even though Fanny gets her happy ending, I think Austen is too much of a realist to suggest that marriage (even a happy marriage) is the only important thing in a woman's life. As you say, personal moral growth is the most important theme that she's exploring; a happy ending in the form of marriage is just the icing on the cake.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Who experienced moral growth?


message 24: by Nina (new)

Nina Clare | 58 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Who experienced moral growth?"

Sir Thomas realised he had not been the parent he should have been, especially in allowing Maria to marry a man she did not love.
Julia was repentant and sought her father's forgiveness for her elopement, and returned to the family fold.
Tom was a reformed character after his illness and became "useful to his father, steady and quiet, and not living merely for himself".
Edmund realised he had been Mary's "dupe", and awakened to the true value of Fanny's character.
Austen doesn't tell us explicitly how Fanny changes, but I see her growth coming from the shedding of her self-doubt and low self esteem as a result of the family finally treating her as a daughter, and not as a subservient outsider.


message 25: by J. W. (new)

J. W. Garrett (jeannewallacegarrett) | 59 comments Nina, that is a good list and observation.


message 26: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments Excellent enumeration, Nina!


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments J. W. wrote: "Nina, that is a good list and observation."

Agreed.

Poor Henry and Mary, I guess, did not experience any growth.


message 28: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments Henry hovered on the brink and failed. Great observations, everybody!


message 29: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments Not to mention Maria and Mrs. Norris! But that’s surely the point.


message 30: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments A Mansfield Park readalong is being hosted at this blog:
https://seasonsofhumility.blogspot.co...
For folks who can't get enough Mansfield Park discussions...


message 31: by Vaishnavi (new)

Vaishnavi | 8 comments I love this re-imagination of Mansfield Park's ending: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2795.... The author gets Fanny and Henry together instead and in such a realistic, delicious way!

I love the idea of Tom/Susan too. Please someone put that idea to paper!


message 32: by Lona (last edited Jan 16, 2018 07:55AM) (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments Vaishnavi wrote: "I love this re-imagination of Mansfield Park's ending: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2795.... The author gets Fanny and Henry together instead and in such a realistic, delicious w..."

Thanks for the recommendation. I read it and it is well done. Fanny is herself, a passive aggressive wet blanket, but she comes along and develops and so does Henry. There is not a lot of incident, it's mostly people talking to one another, and Realizing Things.


message 33: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments "A Susan/Tom match-up has been done. I think it's Joan Aiken's Mansfield Revisited."


message 34: by Abigail (new)

Abigail Bok (regency_reader) | 513 comments I’m not sure what the work is that you’re referencing, Vaishnavi, because the site wants me to register, but there’s a lovely reimagining of the Mansfield ending with Fanny and Henry getting together that has been published: Sherwood Smith’s Henry and Fanny: An Alternate Ending to Mansfield Park. Highly recommended! Is it the same author, or a different one?


message 35: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments The Sherwood Smith version has even less plot than the online story. Basically, people go away and think about it for a while, and then come back, having changed their minds. And two highly improbable fancy-meeting-you-here moments. However, I thought the dialogue was quite good, especially Fanny's.


message 36: by Vaishnavi (new)

Vaishnavi | 8 comments Lona wrote: "Vaishnavi wrote: "I love this re-imagination of Mansfield Park's ending: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2795.... The author gets Fanny and Henry together instead and in such a real..."

+100 to the capitalized "Realizing Things". ;) And yea.. Fanny is mostly a wet blanket.


message 37: by Vaishnavi (new)

Vaishnavi | 8 comments Abigail wrote: "I’m not sure what the work is that you’re referencing, Vaishnavi, because the site wants me to register, but there’s a lovely reimagining of the Mansfield ending with Fanny and Henry getting togeth..."

Oh that's funny, I could access the work just fine without registration, hope you can too! I've read Sherwood Smith's version and thought it just alright... perhaps because I wanted a Fanny-Henry ending so bad... so I looked past the convenient serendipity in the plot. Reading Everingham (the piece I had recommended) was more satisfying, as the characters felt truer to Mansfield Park.


message 38: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments But the online story does have a great moment where one of the characters (I won't give it away) finally tumbles to the fact that Fanny is in love with Edmund, and so that person understands the suffering that Fanny is undergoing. Which is a good variation on the original, I think.


message 39: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments Yes, I didn't have to register either, although I assumed at the time that I must have registered months ago and completely forgotten about it. ; - )
In my variation, A Contrary Wind: a variation on Mansfield Park, Fanny spends time with Henry, but doesn't end up with him. Henry is a beguiling, very vital character, but I think he and Fanny are oil and water.


message 40: by Vaishnavi (new)

Vaishnavi | 8 comments Just got your book ;) But ugh I wish they ended up together!


message 41: by Lona (new)

Lona Manning | 89 comments Thanks! And sorry in advance!


message 42: by Louise (new)

Louise Culmer | 111 comments Nina wrote: "Melindam wrote: "Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Ed..."

SHe doesn't really show a different kind of love though, because we are only told that Edmund eventually decides to marry Fanny in the Last few pages, there is no sign in the course of the novel that he has any romantic interest in Fanny. IT's a bit like poor Marianne in Sense and Sensibility - we are assured that she is content to marry Brandon, in the end, but again, nothing up until that point gives any indication of that.


Joanna Loves Reading (joannalovesreading) Finally have finished!

I don’t really have anything to add to the discussion. I agree that the point of this story is not about the HEA. Morality, wealth, family and status are themes, and it does make it an interesting read.


Joanna Loves Reading (joannalovesreading) Melindam wrote: "Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Louise wrote: "i've never cared much for the ending, would have liked things to turn out differently. Edmund and Fanny as..."

The tiny amount of time spent on Edmund considering Fanny as the object of his affection is what makes it what makes it unconvincing to me too.


message 45: by Maria (new)

Maria (marisolla) | 19 comments I felt sorry for Fanny, Edmund didn't put in half the effort with Fanny that he did with Mary. Ultimately Fanny got what she wanted, but in my opinion she would have been more adored by Henry [she will never get that kind of adoration from Edmund]. Sure Edmund is the safe choice, he will be steady and faithful and a great friend. And with Henry, you would always have to keep an eye out that his not stepping out, but in my opinion Fanny was so different from the women Henry usually dealt with that she might have actually fully captured his attention. I feel Henry could have taken Fanny out of her shell and helped her be carefree and fun while she could have provided much needed stability for Henry.


message 46: by Vaishnavi (new)

Vaishnavi | 8 comments My thoughts exactly. Edmund and Henry are the difference between "love" and "in love".


message 47: by J. (new)

J. Rubino (jrubino) I think (Emma, excepted) that in Austen's early works, she has a romantic inclination toward the marriage of opposites, both socially and temperamentally - Elizabeth and Darcy, Marianne and Brandon, Catherine and Tilney; even Bingley's impulsive nature is unlike Jane's docility. Later on, you see the fault lines in unequal matches - William Elliot and his first wife, Maria and Rushworth, for example - and more inclination toward couples who are temperamentally suited. There's that amusing passage in "Persuasion" where Anne sees the way the Crofts navigate a vehicle as analogous to their marriage. I see Fanny and Edmund as a tamer, but comparatively matched, version of the Crofts.
To me, Henry Crawford has always seemed like someone who wants the chase, but would quickly get bored with the prize. Fanny and Edmund may seem dull, compared to other Austen pairings, but they are temperamentally suited to one another.


message 48: by Louise (last edited Apr 13, 2018 11:03PM) (new)

Louise Culmer | 111 comments I've never thought of Henry Tilney and Catherine as opposites exactly. HE is more sophisticated than she is and a bit full of himself, but she is an energetic fun loving girl and if a bit naive I don't exactly see her as an opposite, an opposite for Henry Tilney would be someone much more serious. in Sense and Sensibility Poor Marianne gets stuck with Brandon, but the main couple, Elinor and Edward, are certainly not opposites, both very serious, very worthy people. And in Persuasion, you have a quiet, serious heroine with a more extravert lively hero, not quite opposites but certainly different in temperement. The Crofts are a bit like Anne and Wentworth I think - he is more impulsive than she is, she is rather more of a calming influence on him.


message 49: by Hannah (new)

Hannah | 123 comments I agree with Louise! Although I’ve never considered Marianne to be getting a “poor” deal with Brandon. It seems to me that Col. Brandon has the same interests as Marianne but tempers them with more maturity and less foolhardiness and thoughtlessness than Willoughby.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 169 comments Louise wrote: "I've never thought of Henry Tilney and Catherine as opposites exactly. HE is more sophisticated than she is and a bit full of himself, but she is an energetic fun loving girl and if a bit naive I d..."

Louise,

I think you’ve just laid out for us why the pairing of these couples are good ones.

Theses are so much better pairings than Lizzie and Darcy!


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