Catholic Thought discussion
Twain's Joan of Arc
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Book 2, Chapters 29-41
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I am glad to have the battles behind me. Not sure why, but I am struggling to stay interested in this book. I wonder if I am just having hard ttime moving from Twain the humorist to Twain the heggiographer. Although, Twain can't completely resist the urge for humor. The story of the bull ride to the funeral and the swarming bees felt more typically Twain. I am not a fan of this older style of saint biography, where the saint is portrayed as perfection incarnate. I like the more modern approach where the saint is given with all of his or her sinful flaws.
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I am not a fan of this older style of saint biography, where the saint is portrayed as perfection incarnate. I like the more modern approach where the saint is given with all of his or her sinful flaws."
Joan was fairly young. I don't know what imperfections there would be, especially if one is devout. If there were imperfections, they were not written down, and apparently there is a lot of information on Joan's short life. I think that is the point of Twain being captivated by her. She was truly a saintly person.
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Manny wrote: "Irene wrote: "I am glad to have the battles behind me. Not sure why, but I am struggling to stay interested in this book. I wonder if I am just having hard ttime moving from Twain the humorist to T..."Manny, doesn't everyone of us, born with Original Sin, have imperfections? Seventeen would be far from truly young at a time when girls would have been likely married and starting their families in their mid-teens and the average life span was not much more than 40 given the number of deaths due to disease, war, childbirth, poor nutrition and farming injuries at that time. I would not expect that Joan's recorded life would not include any imperfections. The way we now approach history and biography is a very contemporary style. In Joan's era, the lives of heros and saints were recounted in a way that maximized the virtue they were admired for and any short-coming was omitted.
Irene wrote: "Manny wrote: "Irene wrote: "I am glad to have the battles behind me. Not sure why, but I am struggling to stay interested in this book. I wonder if I am just having hard ttime moving from Twain the..."One of the things that always comes up in St Joan's story is how much she loved Confession and how she'd go multiple times a week. I take that as an indication that she herself was very aware of her imperfections and trusted that God would help her to overcome them.
As regards this section of the book, I appreciate the high point of triumph it achieves at Charles VII's coronation before sliding down into despair with Joan's capture. I think Twain's command of emotional force is really put on display with that progression and it makes me really excited to see how he handles her trial.
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I don't think she would have had those. Other than a sexual indiscretion, and I don't think it applied to Joan either, I don't know what mortal sin she could have committed. Perhaps we might have caught her in a moment of hating the English? Is that mortal or venial?
Irene, I have never read a modern biography of a saint. Which ones have you read and what kind of sins did they commit?
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Yes, the high point was well handled. I was a bit confused with the events leading to her capture. I needed to look up the historical events, and then it all made sense.
Irene wrote: "Manny wrote: "Irene wrote: "I am glad to have the battles behind me. Not sure why, but I am struggling to stay interested in this book. I wonder if I am just having hard ttime moving from Twain the..."This is neither history nor biography, but a novel. I keep having to remind myself of that.
Notwithstanding her amazing feats, Joan was not beatified until the 20th century. In the 19th century full transcripts of her trial and her rehabilitation were discovered along with other contemporary primary materials. She is probably the best documented medieval saint.
She was Beatified pretty soon after her rehabilitation, her canonization came after World War 1 for pretty obvious reasons.
Manny, I have read biographical pieces on a number of canonized individuals from Teresa of Calcutta to John XXIII. Flaws are not necessarily mortal sins. Various holy people are revealed to have been impatient, headstrong to the point of not being able to hear what others had to tell them, had moments of intolerance, anger, unwise reactions to situations, and so on. In the older style of recounting heroic lives, if an individual is admired for courage, moments of doubt, fear, cowardly cruelty are left out of the story. If an individual is compassionate, thoughts of critical judgmentalism, resentment, selfishness are left out of the account. Joan is flawlessly wise, compassionate to friend and foe alike, only displaying righteous anger similar to Jesus with the sadducees, perfectly humble, etc. I am not saying that such a depiction of heroic figures is wrong or bad. I just find it very difficult to enter into such an account.
Joseph wrote: "She was Beatified pretty soon after her rehabilitation, her canonization came after World War 1 for pretty obvious reasons."Joseph, what is your source? Everything I can find online says she was venerated in 1904, beatified in 1909 and canonized in 1920. Her canonization seems to have been the result of the efforts of Bishop Dupanloup of Orleans starting in 1849. At least that's what Catholic.org says. http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint....
I was going off of the information at the end of the Biopic The Messenger starring Milla Jovavich which gives her beatification as the early 16th century, that appears to be erroneous so it may be the date she was declared a Martyr.
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Irene, I think you’ve hit on a difference on all biography—not just saints lives—between that of the modern world, starting with the age of enlightenment, and prior. Biography in the ancient and medieval world did not think that capturing the historical figure in a full realistic sense was beneficial. They did not see the point of such detail. The intent of biography was to make a thematic point, not bringing that person “to life” for the reader. The biographical figure stood more as a symbol, say virtue or honor or devotion, than as a three dimensional figure. This wasn’t just in biography or literature, but the graphic arts as well. For instance you might have a painting of the crucifixion with St. Francis of Assisi at the foot of the cross. Well obviously that wasn’t realistic since Christ and St. Francis were separated by 1200 years. Somewhere during the Age of Enlightenment an impulse for realism took over art, and the drive was to show as the biographical figure with all their warts, whether they have any significance or not.
On the positive side, those warts are means for many of us to identify with the saint. On the negative side, those warts can lead to undermining of faith. Yes, the venial sins of saints you mention would not do so, but something like the controversy in Nikos Kazantzakis’s novel The Last Temptation of Christ where Christ is portrayed with many human failings would do so. Now that’s an extreme example, but you can see how such a portrayal can undermine faith.
Now back to Twain’s Joan. As has been pointed out, there is lots of documentation on Joan’s life, but it appears to all be in the pre-modern sense. Twain was constrained to follow it or he would have had to invent human failings for Joan, and that would have come across as trite since we know that those failings were not documented. But more important, I believe Twain intentionally strove to idealize Joan because it suited his artistic purposes. The deeper you get into the novel, the more Twain is bitter with the treachery Joan suffered. Twain’s misanthropic theme comes to the forefront, and having Joan as the pure, saintly youth serves as a contrast to the treacherous figures that betray her. Twain really is in love with Joan of Arc because she transcended human malice and corruption.
I know there is a place for “realistic saints” but personally for me I prefer a portrayal of saints as transcendent. Instead of identifying with them I want them to be something for me to strive for, no matter how impossible.
Manny wrote: "Irene wrote: "Manny, I have read biographical pieces on a number of canonized individuals from Teresa of Calcutta to John XXIII. Flaws are not necessarily mortal sins. Various holy people are revea..."Yes, Manny, that is what I wrote in post #5. As I said, I understand that our approach to history and biography in the modern era is very different than it was in earlier periods when the heroic or saintly figure was conveyed as the epitomy of the virtue for which they were admired. Twain is mimicking this earlier approach. It may be because he only has access to written records which contain virtuous accounts of Joan. It may be an artistic decision since he is putting the story in the mouth of her contemporary. It may be a personal faith decision, wanting the reader to share his admiration for this person. Whatever his motivation, I do realize that Twain is giving us what is available to him in a style appropriate for Joan's era.
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Manny wrote: "As has been pointed out, there is lots of documentation on Joan’s life, but it appears to all be in the pre-modern sense."I'm not sure this is right. The most important primary documentation includes the transcripts of her trial and her rehabilitation. As these were legal documents (however corrupt the trial was) it doesn't seem likely to me that they would be written with the same thematic goal as a biography or history.
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I'm not sure this is right. The most important primary docu..."
But isn't that just the trial? Trial wouldn't note her biography. I assume they are just dictating what is said at the trial. But I haven't read the original transcripts.
Manny wrote: "John wrote: "Manny wrote: "As has been pointed out, there is lots of documentation on Joan’s life, but it appears to all be in the pre-modern sense."I'm not sure this is right. The most important..."
I think also the transcripts of her rehabilitation. I haven't read them, but I would expect those to be more detailed.
I meant to add that this has sparked my interest in St. Joan and I've ordered all the biographies in my local library to review. After looking them all over I'll pick one or two to read.
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It has sparked my interest too but unfortunately I need to get on with other reading. I think I've gotten enough. Let me add that Book 3 is breaking my heart.
My heart also, not just because of how Joan is suffering, but for what representatives have (and I am sure still do) in the name of Christ.
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I agree. It is hard to take the viscousness of the prosecuting clergy.
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Kerstin wrote: "I am with Irene, I got fatigued with all the battle descriptions. They became repetitive and after a while seemed like so much filler."I didn't have that reaction and actually found the descriptions interesting, though somewhat summary in nature, but that is likely because military history has always been one of my interests.
Irene wrote: "My heart also, not just because of how Joan is suffering, but for what representatives have (and I am sure still do) in the name of Christ."I agree. It seems every age has its clergy who encapsulate the sins of their age within the Church. In Joan's age, torture and murder, and in our own, child sexual abuse. Always Satan uses fallen men to attack the Church, even, or perhaps especially from within.
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My husband tried not to roll his eyes :) He is very much into military history as well. I can't tell you how many vacations we've spent visiting battlefields and forts. And since he is already deep into the subject matter, I usually let him tell me the short version. My interest lies more toward the domestic front, how did people make a living, what was their diet like, how did they adjust to the climate, etc.
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Kerstin wrote: "John wrote: "I didn't have that reaction and actually found the descriptions interesting, though somewhat summary in nature, but that is likely because military history has always been one of my in..."Ahem, yes, well, I would have to plead guilty to the charge of having dragged my wife (and children) through and across more than one fort and battlefield. I don't think any of them were much impressed with Shiloh, or the Somme, but the kids always loved a good fort. :-)
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In June Joan, bringing the Constable of France, Richemont, to her side, wins the important Battle of Patay, her most overwhelming victory and a resounding defeat for the English under the leadership of Talbot and Fastolfe. The victory allowed Charles VII to finally have the courage to claim the French crown and was coroneted at Rheims. Joan’s father and uncle attend the coronation and are representatives for the great honor given to Joan’s home town of Domremy. Joan then insisted that they aggressively continue onto Paris for the final victory, but the King’s administrative court, especially La Trémoille, argued against it. Joan does persuade the King and Joan and the army march toward Paris. But La Trémoille ultimately convinced the King to reduce the size of Joan’s army. With a reduced army, Joan could not take Paris, and, she also being wounded, finally in May of 1430 was captured and taken prisoner by the Burgundian forces who were aligned with the English.