The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

This week’s reading bit starts on a very inauspicious note since it shows us, in Chapter 15, “The Golden Dustman at His Worst”. We may have witnessed some changes in Mr Boffin so far, e.g. his trying to convince Mr Venus to let him have the Harmon will that is not too advantageous for him, but we don’t really know any particulars about how Mr Boffin changed – apart from the fact that he is still kind towards Bella and his own wife. At the beginning of Chapter 15, with regard to Boffin the narrator lets on that

”[A]s though he began each new day in his healthy natural character, and some waking hours were necessary to his relapse into the corrupting influences of his wealth, the face and the demeanour of the Golden Dustman were generally unclouded at that meal. It would have been easy to believe then, that there was no change in him. It was as the day went on that the clouds gathered, and the brightness of the morning became obscured. One might have said that the shadows of avarice and distrust lengthened as his own shadow lengthened, and that the night closed around him gradually.”

This might show that there is still some quantity of the old article in Mr Boffin but that it is changed by the new position he finds himself in. Our chapter, however, opens on a morning when Mr Boffin is unusually gloomy and be-clouded, if I may use that expression that just popped up in my mind, and in the presence of Mrs Boffin, who is sitting in the background, doing some needlework, and of Bella, he sends for the secretary Rokesmith. As Mr Boffin says, he is determined on “setting Bella right”, but whatever he means by this, it cannot mean anything good for Rokesmith judging by Mr Boffin’s manner and first words towards the secretary. Mr Boffin does not mince words when he accuses the secretary of fortune hunting with respect to Bella:

”‘How dare you, sir,’ said Mr Boffin, ‘tamper, unknown to me, with this young lady? How dare you come out of your station, and your place in my house, to pester this young lady with your impudent addresses?’”

Bella immediately notices that it was herself who gave occasion to this confrontation when she dropped that hint to Mrs Lammle, and that her flightiness and haughtiness, which she knew to be wrong from the start, and nevertheless let her prompt into making this confession to Mrs Lammle, are the origin of what is happening now. – It’s also interesting that Mr Boffin accuses Rokesmith of coming out of his station when he himself is a man who was in a much humbler station not a long time ago. There are also other revealing expressions in Mr Boffin’s harangue, like the following:

”’[…] This young lady was far above you. This young lady was no match for you. This young lady was lying in wait (as she was qualified to do) for money, and you had no money.’”

There is a certain kind of bitter irony in his words in that they are spoken with the intention of setting Bella right, as Mr Boffin never tires to point out, but they actually paint Bella as a money-ridden, cold-hearted schemer (most hurtingly so when he asks Rokesmith, “’Didn’t this young lady tell you so herself?’” – in fact, Boffin makes Bella look like a younger version of Mrs Lammle –, and so Bella finally cries out that Mr Boffin is actually wronging her, an objection of which her champion takes no heed at all but goes on in his having it out with Rokesmith.

Mr Boffin then goes on to present a very slanderous version of Mr Rokesmith’s motives of falling in love with Bella and he backs it up with words like these:

”’[…] ‘Don’t I know what grabs are made at a man with money? If I didn’t keep my eyes open, and my pockets buttoned, shouldn’t I be brought to the workhouse before I knew where I was? Wasn’t the experience of Dancer, and Elwes, and Hopkins, and Blewbury Jones, and ever so many more of ‘em, similar to mine? Didn’t everybody want to make grabs at what they’d got, and bring ‘em to poverty and ruin? Weren’t they forced to hide everything belonging to ‘em, for fear it should be snatched from ‘em? Of course they was. I shall be told next that they didn’t know human natur!’”

Words that show how his wealth has turned Mr Boffin into a distrustful and somewhat misanthropic grump. The upshot of it all is that Boffin gives his secretary the sack, even throwing his earnings at his feet and making him pick them up. This kind of behaviour is finally too much for Bella, who flies into a fit of temper, speaks up for Rokesmith and has a go at Boffin, telling him how much he has changed. It’s very funny, in a way, how much she is torn between her original gratitude for what Boffin has done for her and her indignation at his present behaviour:

”‘When I came here, I respected you and honoured you, and I soon loved you,’ cried Bella. ‘And now I can’t bear the sight of you. At least, I don’t know that I ought to go so far as that—only you’re a—you’re a Monster!’ Having shot this bolt out with a great expenditure of force, Bella hysterically laughed and cried together.“

She also wishes that somebody should make her poor again, and the narrator cannot help commenting on her beauty, which is a bit out of tune with the situation and makes her seem almost like a child:

”Very pretty she looked, though very angry, as she made herself as tall as she possibly could (which was not extremely tall), and utterly renounced her patron with a lofty toss of her rich brown head.”

Bella then decides to leave the household of the Golden Dustman, even though Mr Boffin does not mince words about this being a decision beyond recall and leading to his not settling a single penny on her, but Bella is determined to leave and go back to her father. I wonder how Mrs Wilfer is going to take it. So she says farewell to the kindly Mr Boffin and also to Mr Boffin asking him before shaking hands which one of them might be the least spoilt, whereupon Boffin replies:

”’Try the left hand […]; it’s the least used.’”

Bella then goes into her room to pack her luggage, taking great care that she only packs up the things with which she came into the Boffin household. She even leaves behind her the dress she has been wearing, exchanging it for one of her old dresses.

This showdown of a chapter left me quite breathless but I would like to ask two questions:

One: What do you think of Mrs Boffin’s role? During the whole conversation, she is obviously pained but whenever she tries to chip in, Mr Boffin, kindly though with determination, puts her down, and finally she is silent.

Second: Peter already mentioned the fairy-tale-elements in this book, and I could not help thinking that there is one fairy-tale-element in here, too. Just look at a sentence like this one, said by Bella: “‘I would rather he thought well of me,’ said Bella, ‘though he swept the street for bread, than that you did, though you splashed the mud upon him from the wheels of a chariot of pure gold.—There!’” When reading this and similar passages, I thought that Dickens is making a rather simplistic contrast between being rich and spoilt on the one hand, and being poor and decent on the other. I thought it sensible, to a certain degree, of Mr Boffin not to open his purse to anyone and to distrust people. The problem is that he does not distrust the right set of people and distrusts those whom he can trust. What do you think about this rich/spoilt-poor/decent thing?

The next Chapter treats us to “The Feast of the Three Hobgoblins”, which sounds interesting, but is – compared with the preceding chapter – a more slowly-going affair.

Bella, after leaving the Boffin household for good, wends her way to her father’s office in order to break him the news. The city seems to reflect her state of mind, as the first well-crafted sentences show:

”The City looked unpromising enough, as Bella made her way along its gritty streets. Most of its money-mills were slackening sail, or had left off grinding for the day. The master-millers had already departed, and the journeymen were departing. There was a jaded aspect on the business lanes and courts, and the very pavements had a weary appearance, confused by the tread of a million of feet. There must be hours of night to temper down the day’s distraction of so feverish a place. As yet the worry of the newly-stopped whirling and grinding on the part of the money-mills seemed to linger in the air, and the quiet was more like the prostration of a spent giant than the repose of one who was renewing his strength.“

Note that the slackening of the money-mill’s sails can also stand for the change in Bella’s situation, i.e. the disappearance of her prospective wealth, but she no longer reacts to this disappearance as she would have reacted a few days ago. Coming to think of it, do you notice any similarities and dissimilarities between Bella and Pip? Both of them had great expectations before them and gave them up – but maybe there are still differences?

Bella meets her father at the counting-house, where he lingers on after working hours to enjoy some modest repast before he goes home to his loving wife and his daughter Lavinia – it’s touching to see how that man does not immediately return home knowing that he will find no respite there. It reminds me of a former colleague of mine who would also stay on after work, putting this in order and changing that, and when I first met his wife, it immediately became clear to me why that man was so enthusiastic about staying at the school.

Bella has not really got the heart to tell her father the sad (?) news immediately, and Wilfer runs down to the shop to get another loaf and penn’orth of milk for her when suddenly Rokesmith appears on the scene. He knew that Bella would try to see her father first and so he knew where to look for her. Like in a Hollywood movie, the two young people rush into each other’s arms and say all sorts of pathos-laden things, and we’d better skip all that. It becomes obvious that Rokesmith and Bella intend to join their hands in marriage, but this kept me wondering about one thing: Was it not common for people in those days – not that I deem it necessary, but I thought it was common at the time – to ask the father of the bride whether he would give his daughter’s hand in marriage to the suitor in question? No such thing is done here, but Mr Wilfer is rather taken by surprise at finding his daughter rushing into his former lodger’s arms. I’m sure they can take Mr Wilfer’s assent for granted but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?

With Rokesmith by her side, Bella no longer has any qualms about telling her father the plain truth, and Mr Wilfer is very proud that his daughter has acted the way she did and preferred love and decency over wealth and a good match. The three enjoy their meal, which, though it be modest and frugal, is more delicious to them than anything they could have got at the Boffin board. Then Rokesmith accompanies his future wife and father-in-law home – I wonder where he is going to lodge now that he has lost his position with Mr Boffin –, where Bella has to tell her mother and sister that she is from now on going to live at their place again. They react rather predictably, Lavinia, for instance, finding herself corroborated in her distrust against “those Boffins”, but Bella is determined not to start quarrelling and does not pick up the gauntlet, being a different young woman now.

My favourite quotation from this chapter was when Mr Wilfer accompanies the two lovers:

”Indeed, that modest spirit deemed himself so much in the way of their deep enjoyment of the journey, that he apologetically remarked: ‘I think, my dears, I’ll take the lead on the other side of the road, and seem not to belong to you.’ Which he did, cherubically strewing the path with smiles, in the absence of flowers.“

It seems to imply that true bliss comes from within and does not depend on external things like, in this case, flowers.

Chapter 17 takes us back into high society and makes us listen to “A Social Chorus”. The truth is out on the Lammles, there being a bill of sale on the furniture of their house, and everyone keeps wondering now how they could ever have wormed their way into their exclusive circle. Mr Veneering, for instance, reacts in a typical way:

”But, nobody is half so much amazed as Hamilton Veneering, Esquire, M.P. for Pocket-Breaches, who instantly begins to find out that the Lammles are the only people ever entered on his soul’s register, who are not the oldest and dearest friends he has in the world. Mrs Veneering, W.M.P. for Pocket-Breaches, like a faithful wife shares her husband’s discovery and inexpressible astonishment. Perhaps the Veneerings twain may deem the last unutterable feeling particularly due to their reputation, by reason that once upon a time some of the longer heads in the City are whispered to have shaken themselves, when Veneering’s extensive dealings and great wealth were mentioned. But, it is certain that neither Mr nor Mrs Veneering can find words to wonder in, and it becomes necessary that they give to the oldest and dearest friends they have in the world, a wondering dinner.”

Mr Twemlow, in his domestic preparations for this dinner, is surprised by a visit from Mrs Lammle, and here we are in for a particularly strong part of the novel, showing that Dickens’s skills have reached a new level in the description of Mrs Lammle. That lady has come to Mr Twemlow in order to remind him of his duty as a gentleman not to breathe any word, to whomever may come to apply to him for information, on what has passed between the two of them. I wondered whom she might have in mind, and came to the conclusion that she might still be thinking of worming herself into the Boffins’s confidence and that she is afraid of anything coming between their plan and its fruition. When she justifies her good action of helping Georgiana – as though this needed justification –, she says,

”‘And for doing which, I thank you; though, indeed, I scarcely know why I turned traitress to my husband in the matter, for the girl is a poor little fool. I was a poor little fool once myself; I can find no better reason.’”

When she talks, Mr Twemlow notices her “hardened manner” but he still cannot withstand the power of her eyes, and she seems to know it. In the course of the conversation Twemlow divulges to her that he, too, is in the hands of the debt-collector Riah but that Fledgeby has tried to help him, whereupon she warns him not to trust Fledgeby since, according to her feeling, it is Fledgeby who has a hold on Twemlow and who uses Riah as a mask. Like Mr Lammle, Twemlow does not believe her but wants proof – a fact that provides her with bitter amusement. She also says this, which does not augur well for Fledgeby at all:

”’[…] However, I will never rest (if only in remembrance of Mr Fledgeby’s having kissed my hand) until my husband does see it. And you will do well for yourself to see it from this time forth, Mr Twemlow, though I can give you no proof.’”

We can all imagine what would happen to Mr Fledgeby as soon as Lammle sees through his double-crossing ways. On leaving, Mrs Lammle gives a speech that allows as a deep glimpse into her soul and shows us the whole extent of her despair:

”It is much for Mr Lammle, Twemlow politely intimates (though greatly shocked), to have one always beside him who is attached to him in all his fortunes, and whose restraining influence will prevent him from courses that would be discreditable and ruinous. As he says it, Mrs Lammle leaves off sketching, and looks at him.

‘Restraining influence, Mr Twemlow? We must eat and drink, and dress, and have a roof over our heads. Always beside him and attached in all his fortunes? Not much to boast of in that; what can a woman at my age do? My husband and I deceived one another when we married; we must bear the consequences of the deception—that is to say, bear one another, and bear the burden of scheming together for to-day’s dinner and to-morrow’s breakfast—till death divorces us.’”

Here we are again faced with the question of what a person can do in order to earn their living. Is Mr Twemlow naïve in assuming that shared poverty is only half-poverty? This may be a question that might pop up sooner or later before Bella and Rokesmith.

The remainder of the chapter takes us, once again, to the Veneerings where the Lammles’s affairs are discussed. It offers Dickens a lot of opportunities to use his penchant for satire, and I thoroughly enjoyed the desperate attempts of Buffer, Boots and Brewer to ingratiate themselves, everybody ignoring the Veneerings, the Analytical’s contempt breathing from every single one of his actions and the ladle of Podsnappery that tops it all. The chapter ends with a cliff-hanger when Eugene Wrayburn, one of the guests, reveives a message from Mortimer’s clerk Blight to the effect that Mr Cleaver – Mr Dolls, that is – is waiting outside. Eugene steps outside, where Mr Cleaver is waiting in a coach. As expected, he has got the address where Lizzie can be found, and the shameful bargain between him and Eugene is brought to a close.

So is Book the Third.

What else, if I had been so happy as to win her affections and
possess her heart?'

'Win her affections,' retorted Mr Boffin, with ineffable contempt,
'and possess her heart! Mew says the cat, Quack-quack says the
duck, Bow-wow-wow says the dog! Win her affections and
possess her heart! Mew, Quack-quack, Bow-wow!'

John Rokesmith stared at him in his outburst, as if with some faint
idea that he had gone mad.

I don't even have a comment on this passage, but I couldn't let the chapter go by without including it. Just like Rokesmith, I'm nearly dumbstruck.

Tristram wrote: "What do you think of Mrs Boffin’s role? During the whole conversation, she is obviously pained but whenever she tries to chip in, Mr Boffin, kindly though with determination, puts her down, and finally she is silent."

I put it down to the notion that men wore the pants in the family, and that their wives had little in the way of a voice in those days. She certainly tried to interject and talk him down, but he obviously wasn't having it, and her only recourse was to submit to his wishes.

The reader, of course, knows John's heart, but is Boffin's assumption under the circumstances so far-fetched? I would say this was an over-reaction but, despite the outrage, Boffin makes a good case for trying to protect Bella from someone who may well be a cad.

Tristram wrote: "The next Chapter treats us to “The Feast of the Three Hobgoblins”..."

And here we have more blatant use of the fairy tale motif, with the three hobgoblins even getting a chapter bearing their name. I don't know the tale of the three hobgoblins, but it sounds very similar to Goldilocks and the Three Bears:

It was, as Bella gaily said, like the supper provided for the three
nursery hobgoblins at their house in the forest, without their
thunderous low growlings of the alarming discovery, 'Somebody's
been drinking MY milk!'

Does anyone know the Hobgoblin tale and how it compares to Goldilocks?

Tristram wrote: "Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

This week’s reading bit starts on a very inauspicious note since it shows us, in Chapter 15, “The Golden Dustman at His Worst”. We may have witnessed some changes in Mr B..."

Tristram

First, I love the word "be-clouded." My I borrow it?

This chapter brings the concept of money into a very painful focus. Buffin reduces Bella to a commodity for sale - "This young lady was looking about the market for a good bid; she wasn't in it to be snapped up by fellows that had no money to lay out; nothing to buy with." To Bella's credit, when she realizes that Rokesmith has been dismissed by Boffin pleads "Oh, Mr Rokesmith, before you go, if you could but make me poor again ... Don't give me money, Mr Boffin, I won't have money."

To me, the key to this chapter resides in the transformation of Bella once again. Faced with the stormy but wealthy Boffin as her protector and losing Rokesmith, or renouncing the monied world of Boffin in order to return to her humble roots, she chooses to go back to her old home. The change in her heart and mind is most strikingly demonstrated by her removing her clothes of wealth and, in their place, re-dressing in the humble clothes of her origins. This changing of clothes is both necessary and symbolic. By returning to her home Bella is renouncing her opportunity to be wealthy and embracing a world that offers much dignity but little else.

Once again, the trope of a person assuming new or a different role occurs in this chapter. From the dreary waterfront of the Thames to the homes of the wealthy characters are constantly changing their appearance and thus their roles in society. Mrs Boffin appears flummoxed by the actions of her husband. He too appears to have assumed a new role of an avaricious man.

Who or what can we as readers hold onto for stability and direction in this novel?

Tristram wrote: "The next Chapter treats us to “The Feast of the Three Hobgoblins”, which sounds interesting, but is – compared with the preceding chapter – a more slowly-going affair.

Bella, after leaving the Bof..."

A chapter of love found and confirmed. Who could not want - and expect this- from Dickens?

A great question Tristram regarding similarities between Bella and Estella. My answer is yes, I do indeed feel some of the same literary currents pulsing through both novels.

Rokesmith "My love, my life! You ARE mine?"
Bella " Yes, I AM yours."

Well, these lines are a bit un-Estella-like, but let's look a bit further. Bella did have a life where she was pampered and her guardian was a bit eccentric. Both Bella and Estella lived with the acknowledged reality that they were wing groomed as being a marketable commodity in terms of their future. Money, or position, or market value, dominated any notions of love. Estella was chastened in one form or another. Estella was married off to a bully. In part, I believe Estella chose to move from the position of an oppressed girl in Satis House to an oppressed woman in a titled home. Both worlds were ones of verbal, psychological, or physical abuse and punishment.

For Bella, she was a commodity tied to an abusive clause in a will. Bella had few options. Marry rich was her life educational mantra. While Mr Boffin was certainly more civil and lovingthan Miss Havisham, the recent chapters have shown him as a man driven by the perceived need to wall himself up from the world that he saw as threatening. There is, at this point, little difference between Boffin and Miss Havisham.

As for Pip and Rokesmith, we see two people who have fallen in love with a woman who is guarded by a human dragon intent on protecting the damsel from a perceived or real eternal threat.

In this chapter, Bella and Rokesmith do find each other. Dickens introduces elements of a fairy tale as Bella binds herself to her father by means of her "long hair" which she wraps playfully around her father until it makes him sneeze. Bella tells her father about a "fortune-teller" and how there is a promised land of comfort and safety on the horizon. " There's a dear Knave of Wilfer's" Bella explains and then she "[puts] out her small white bare foot" and entreats her father to " kiss the lovely woman before she runs away."

Elements of various fairy tales are resonating through this chapter. The larger thematic events of the novel are becoming closer to being revealed through allusions to fairy tales.

Tristram wrote: "Chapter 17 takes us back into high society and makes us listen to “A Social Chorus”. The truth is out on the Lammles, there being a bill of sale on the furniture of their house, and everyone keeps ..."

Is Mr Twemlow naïve in assuming that shared poverty is only half-poverty?
I am not sure, tristram? Here, towards the end of the novel, I am beginning to question the motives and character of everybody...Twemlow included. He's another who parallels the River Thames...Where what appears on the outside, is completely different to what is hidden in its abyss. Reading into the subjective conversations I've seen him have with himself lead me to believe that he's not as naive. Two of those moments being when Twemlow questions if he's either the oldest or newest friend of the Veneerings, in CH7 of Book 1; and again, when Mrs. Lammle corners him to divulge her scheming for the Podsnap fortune in CH6 of Book 3...In both situations Twemlow is in deep thought.

I question Dickens's treatment of Twemlow's naivety because of his continued perplexed state of being, and his culminating ties to various plot lines...I find Twemlow to be a ticking time bomb, of sorts. He's confounded by most everything, yet we do see him questioning after the fact with validity. Dickens could also be giving depth to that which appears shallow, in which case its comedy in irony, as are most of Twemlow's chapters? :P

I have for health reasons had to reduce my reading time and increase my listening time, so I've been following the book through the audio version. It's well done, but I have to say that things are excruciatingly slow moving. When reading, one can skim through pages fairly quickly when things don't seem exciting. When one has to listen to every word, word by word, the complete text, one realizes, or at least I do, that there's really not much plot holding things together, and some of the scenes with Bradley Headstone are mind-numbingly boring to listen to every word of.

I have held off criticizing the book for awhile, but I haven't yet changed my opinion that I expressed some weeks ago that this is, for me at least, the least successful of Dickens's works. Are others finding this also, or are you getting engrossed in the story, such as it is?

Everyman wrote: "I have for health reasons had to reduce my reading time and increase my listening time, so I've been following the book through the audio version. It's well done, but I have to say that things are ..."

I would be better equipped to answer your question once I'm done reading it in entirety, for if I was to answer it now, I would sound like a broken record because my thoughts have not changed from what I've posted in previous threads. It's hit and miss for me, but it's "still" Dickens!

Do you rate Dickens novels solely based on his collection, or is your metric wider in scope... I'm curious about your 5star rating considering your criticisms thus far?

I hope you feel better soon, Everyman.

Everyman wrote: "I have for health reasons had to reduce my reading time and increase my listening time, so I've been following the book through the audio version. It's well done, but I have to say that things are ..."

Although my lifetime reading of Dickens is not extensive as some, I always found with the Dickens I did read, that it was a joy to read. Joy is my apt word.

With OMF, unfortunately, I have not found anything like that. It is meandering and long-winded, and not to my liking primarily for those reasons.

In my view, there is wonderful material in OMF that could constitute several different, unique novels, and each of those separately would be a "joy" to read. But all together? No, in my view, because they all get drowned in the tale of one another.

Ami wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I have for health reasons had to reduce my reading time and increase my listening time, so I've been following the book through the audio version. It's well done, but I have to say..."

Like Ami, I think I'll withhold comments on this until we finish. I look forward to that discussion!

Re Peter's question--To whom or what do we hold onto for stability and direction?

I realize that I've been holding onto Rokesmith the whole time. From his first appearance as a lodger I have suspected him of not being who he said he was. Once he soliloquy 'd his true identity I recognized that he alone can undo the knot of characters who are acting under false assumptions.

LindaH wrote: "Re Peter's question--To whom or what do we hold onto for stability and direction?

I realize that I've been holding onto Rokesmith the whole time. From his first appearance as a lodger I have suspe..."

I think we can also hold on to Lizzie who, like so many Dickens females, is as true as the North star. And perhaps also (and this surprises me) Eugene, who has irritated me consistently, but hasn't been duplicitous in any way that I can remember. But Linda is right about Rokesmith, as well -- he is, after all, "our mutual friend" and may be the only one who can bring all these stories together.

I haven't yet read all of the comments, but yes, that's a lovely quotation, Tristram - smiles
in lieu of flowers.

It also had struck me that no permission was sought for Bella's hand in marriage. Perhaps it was forgotten in all the excitement.

Boffin truly is a horror!

Everyman, I'm so sorry to hear that you have been unwell. I do understand what you mean about audio. It can't really be fast forwarded. It took a long time for me to warm up to this book but then I did. I found David Timson's audio ingenious with his cast of characters. Perhaps you are also listening to Timson. I find that he, at times, even improves on things that Dickens has written just through his intonation.

With three books in OMF now nearly completed, I am curious if anyone has any thoughts about how these books are divided up and why they are divided up as they are.

If this was mentioned somewhere already, I will look for it.

Everyman

I was sorry to read that you are encountering some health issues. I wish you all the best, my neighbour. Take care of yourself.

As we leave this section of the novel I would like to confess that Mrs Lammle and Tremlow are rapidly becoming favourite characters of mine.

Mrs Lammle is a very interesting female character. She was certainly opportunistic in the early part of the novel. Her marriage is one of the most interesting in Dickens's novels. She is a "roundish" character in that she must adjust to her married expectations and disappointment, and yet there is a humane streak in her. Her warning to Twemlow saves another female from the possibility of a bad marriage like the one she is in. She seems to me to be a person who knows her own evil and yet struggles against allowing her failings as a person to infect anyone else. I have sympathy for her as I watch her balance the reality of how she and her husband must deal with others in order to survive and yet, within her private soul, I feel she wants to be a better person. We will see how it all plays out.

Who can't enjoy the portrayal of Twemlow? From his sticky egg-conditioned hair to his humble pride he has emerged in the novel as a knight without a horse, but a person who still has the potential to effect much of what might occur in our final chapters.

Everyman - I too was sorry to hear your news, and if this is to be a permanent alteration, then I hope you find advantages as well as disadvantages in reading by listening. There are some.

I've had my share of imposed listening, although I find it a difficult way to enjoy reading. But on the other hand, it can really reveal the beauty of language - and show up bad writing!

I actually agree that Dickens does not come across well in this way, at least in my case. I listened to A Tale of Two Cities the time before last, and felt it really dragged in places, yet in our recent read I was struck by the powerful and terrifying descriptions. The best classic authors I've found to listen to are Anthony Trollope, whose writing is full of conversation, and more colloquial, and Jane Austen, who just has so many biting witticisms in far shorter sentences.

Apologies for diverting the thread a little.

I've actually really enjoyed these 3 chapters, and feel like cheering Bella on! From such a spoilt little piece she has begun to discover her moral compass, and it is a joy to watch. Yes, OK we got a bit sentimental in the lovey-dovey scenes where Bella's face was hidden by John Rokesmith presumably kissing her, but it is forgivable as a match we have been hoping for since the beginning, I think.

I very much like the comparison between Bella and Estelle, Peter, and their parallel situations too. It is almost as if in this novel Dickens has been able to explore this idea a little more deeply. We didn't get much about the new chastened Estelle really in Great Expectations.

I agree that it would have been more proper to formally ask for Bella's hand in marriage. Even in "my day" this was still done as as matter of form. I think my Dad was slightly surprised and very touched, but perhaps would have secretly been disappointed had it not happened.

I think perhaps there may have been an interim overlapping period where the couple decided between themselves, prior to the father being asked. And probably by the mid-20th century, the mother would be consulted too. I remember my Mum coming in straightaway from the kitchen, to be involved :D

Perhaps because Bella was such a little princess, her father was just pleased that she was so happy? He may also have never expected to be consulted, because he had no power or authority at home. It may have been the sort of household where both parents were consulted, but clearly the mother would have the controlling reins. Much like Anthony Trollope's wonderful portrayal of Mrs Proudie and her continual refrain of, "The Bishop believes, and I agree with him ... "

As for Mrs Boffin not speaking up. I think this also rings true. Yes, her expression is pained and she is very troubled. But she is a kind soul rather than an outspoken one. She has a long history with Noddy Boffin, and probably still can't believe that his personality has changed. She must be confused as to both her new social position with all this wealth, and what is happening to her husband. She thought they both wanted to be the same nice people, and do some good, but it now appears to not be the case. She probably still loves him, but is rather frightened.

Another thing I noticed was the switching of tenses in the scene involving Twemlow. I think we were much more aware of his discomfort and trepidation, with the action happening in the present tense.

Jean wrote: "I agree that it would have been more proper to formally ask for Bella's hand in marriage. Even in "my day" this was still done as as matter of form. I think my Dad was slightly surprised and very t..."

My impression of this scene (as I recall, it's been a few weeks since I read it) is that there was no straightforward proposal. It was kind of a tangle of emotions that Noddy was wrapped up in and, in a way, a part of, even though he hadn't been privy to what had happened at the Boffin's. So asking permission would have seemed redundant, and if he hadn't approved, he could have spoken up immediately.

Re asking father's permission:

It seemed okay that formalities were not observed in the Hobgoblin party. Does it make any difference that Bella h ad already confided Rokesmith 's proposal and her father did not object. He seemed to approve actually. He seemed to be on Rokesmith 's side.

“Yes. To be sure. I am astonished indeed. I wonder he committed himself without seeing more of his way first. Now I think of it, I suspect he always has admired you though, my dear.”

Tristram asked, "but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?" and in terms of correct behaviour in society I think yes, it would. From a contemporary point of view, we tend to look more at the individual's motivations.

Mary Lou and Linda - you've both answered from this point of view, (as I did myself in the second part of my post).

So perhaps what we should be asking is, would a Victorian reader have "forgiven" this lapse of correct behaviour, given all the "tangle of emotions" - and the fact that they, like we, would have all been willing this match to happen since virtually the beginning of the story?

Linda - another thought “Yes. To be sure. I am astonished indeed. I wonder he committed himself without seeing more of his way first. Now I think of it, I suspect he always has admired you though, my dear.” - This makes me think that Bella's father somehow suspects that John Rokesmith is above him socially. Perhaps his behaviour is that of a born gentleman? If so, then this may well influence whether he thought his permission should be sought.

Jean wrote: "Tristram asked, "but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?" and in terms of correct behaviour in society I think yes, it would. From a contemporary po..."

Yes, I suppose the proper thing to have done in the midst of all that cathartic love would have been for Rokesmith to turn to Noddy, and ask him there in the moment, rather than just assuming.

FYI, my husband did ask my father's permission before proposing to me, and surprisingly my dad assented! We'll have been married 32 years next week, so I guess we've been vindicated. ;-)

Jean wrote: "Linda - another thought “Yes. To be sure. I am astonished indeed. I wonder he committed himself without seeing more of his way first. Now I think of it, I suspect he always has admired you though, ..."

This is a very interesting conversation. I do agree with LindaH that Rokesmith's intentions were not a secret. Still, the question remains what a true gentleman would have been expected to do. Here are some random thoughts.

When we use the term "gentleman" we need to clarify what is meant by that word. A gentleman in the older, historical sense would mean a person of wealth, property and standing and, more than likely, a title as well. Rokesmith does not fill any of these criteria when he is Rokesmith.

While the proper action of a man might be to ask the father of his intended bride for permission, was this still the accepted practice in the mid 1860's? We are well past the age of Austen.

Structurally, Dickens has presented us with a series of marriages that are blighted in one way or another. The Wilfer's, on the other hand, present the reader with an enjoyable edge of humour and yet we know they are well suited and matched for each other. Would it have created too much formality to have the Bella-Rokesmith union appear to be too formal? Their declaration to each other bursts forth on the page. Their pent up emotions are allowed to run free and become honestly expressed at last. I think to go through the stages of a formal request to marry and then a more formal and solemn proposal would ruin the more playful exuberance of the scene we read.

Dare we think that Dickens was also looking to himself and realizing that his own marital web was one of entrapment and confined his desire to openly declare his love for Ellen without fear of censure from his reading public. The Staplehurst rail disaster revealed his liaison to the public in ways Dickens never wanted. On the train with Ellen was her mother. Dickens's world was anything but spontaneous. Perhaps only in fiction could he create what he himself could never have.

Mary Lou wrote: "Jean wrote: "Tristram asked, "but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?" and in terms of correct behaviour in society I think yes, it would. From a co..."

Mary Lou

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding anniversary. Celebrate in style, my friend.

Peter wrote: "Congratulations on your upcoming wedding anniversary. Celebrate in style, my friend. "

Thank you, Peter! We're hoping to celebrate with our first grandchild as my daughter is due at about the same time. You'll all surely be notified when the time comes - drinks will be on me at the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters!

Peter wrote: "Rokesmith does not fill any of these criteria when he is Rokesmith"

Yes, which is why I wondered whether Mr Wilfer could somehow deduce from Rokesmith's bearing and demeanour that he was a true gentleman and outclassed him - or even suspected the truth (though this is perhaps a speculation too far!)

"I think to go through the stages of a formal request to marry and then a more formal and solemn proposal would ruin the more playful exuberance of the scene we read...."

Oh yes, I agree it would put quite a dampener on it!

And I particularly like the interpretations you put on Dickens's mind-set in your final paragraph.

Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "Congratulations on your upcoming wedding anniversary. Celebrate in style, my friend. "

Thank you, Peter! We're hoping to celebrate with our first grandchild as my daughter is due at ..."

Mary Lou

We have just learned that we will become grandparents for the first time in March. It looks like the Six Jolly Fellowship Porters will be in for a few Pickwickian celebrations.

I promise to behave myself. :-))

Peter wrote: "We have just learned that we will become grandparents for the first time in March.."

Fabulous news, Peter! Congratulations!

Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "We have just learned that we will become grandparents for the first time in March.."

Fabulous news, Peter! Congratulations!"

Peter wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "Congratulations on your upcoming wedding anniversary. Celebrate in style, my friend. "

Thank you, Peter! We're hoping to celebrate with our first grandchild as my da..."U

Mazel Tov, Peter & Mary Lou!!! I think you're both already great, but the arrival of your grandchildren will officially make you grand ! It's wonderful news... :)

Can we please talk about how absolutely convincing Rokesmith's disguise must be for Bella to have married this man and still not realized it's her John Harmon? LoL!

Ami, God question! Are you suspecting Bella knows the truth?

Ami wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "We have just learned that we will become grandparents for the first time in March.."

Fabulous news, Peter! Congratulations!"

Peter wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wr..."

Thanks Ami. We are all excited. It will be great to spend time in the children's section of a bookstore. I'm already hoping baby X will love reading.

As to whether Bella has recognized Rokesmith/Harmon... I figure that Harmon has been away from London ~20 plus years. Perhaps he did not age as well as us Curiosities. :-)) then again, perhaps a bit of poetic licence.

Peter! Methinks you may have anticipated your exciting news when you noted the fairytale themes in OMF awhile back. :)

Congratulations !!!

Mary Lou! Congratulations on your wonderful news!!!

Oh dear, it's been six days already since I last came into this thread, and I missed such a lively and interesting discussion. Unluckily, work has cast its ugly shadow over the pastures of my existence once more, forcing me to go through the motions of activity and zeal ;-)

As to reading Charles Dickens or listening to audio books, I must say that I find Dickens particularly suitable for being read aloud - like Conrad or Hardy - because he is a master of using language in an original way. His descriptions of places and moods are hard to beat - think of the beginning of Bleak House, the death scene of little Paul Dombey, Mr Dorrit's last journey, or the marshes in Great Expectations. I often read Dickens aloud to myself, when I read him - of course not when I do so in my favourite café - because this way I can savour his language most without missing anything. Also his comic scenes are worth reading aloud, and I just once again noticed how different Dickens is from other authors, whose works sometimes include passages one prefers to skim. I just made the experience of Mary Barton containing a lot of skimmable stuff.

I also like Our Mutual Friend a lot. I think the love triangle Bradley-Lizzie-Eugene is a new quality in Dickens in that Bradley is not really a downright bad person after all, but he is simply unlucky in being endowed with a passionate temper and the habit of having suppressed it. Then there is Mrs Lammle, whom I would rank among Dickens's most interesting characters. The novel may be slow-moving in terms of plot but plot is not the most important thing for me when reading a novel. If a writer creates interesting characters, overwhelms and inspires me with his language and also includes humour here and there (preferably wry humour), I am mighty pleased.

As to the question of asking the father of the bride for his consent, I originally meant that question in the way Jean pointed it out later: What would Victorians have thought of Rokesmith's forwardness in kissing Bella before her father's eyes without so much as preparing him?

I am much convinced by Peter's suggestion that Dickens, in writing this, was providing some psychological relief for himself considering his own domestic situation. Maybe, we can even carry this idea further? Maybe, the average Victorian reader, while observing the prim and proper codes of behaviour in his own life, would have felt some cathartic (never know how to spell this one) effect when reading about an encounter between two lovers that allowed them to live out their feelings for each other without caring for social proprieties? In a way, the constellation of two lovers braving it out against a world of authorities is typical of a comedy, isn't it? And comedies always end well and on a conciliatory note.

About Mr Boffin taking up the cudgel for Bella: You said that this chapter brought about another major change in Bella's moral development, and I agree. I would also say that Mr Boffin's very direct way of saying that Bella is out there "on the market" to catch a big fish was very important in effecting this change. So, ironically, Mr Boffin, achieved the very opposite of what he wanted to do - he thought he was speaking up for Bella when in fact his words made her realize the mercenary baseness of her concept of life. So finally, Mr Boffin did speak up for Bella but what he did was arouse Bella's better nature to its full power - to the effect we read in Chapter 15.

Mary Lou wrote: "Jean wrote: "Tristram asked, "but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?" and in terms of correct behaviour in society I think yes, it would. From a co..."

My best wishes for your wedding anniversary, Mary Lou! My wife and I married in 2007, and on 07/07 (mind you, this date is written the BRITISH way!!!), we celebrated our tenth anniversary. Being a rather old-fashioned person in some respects, I made a point of asking my wife's father for his permission to propose to his wife, adding that she was worth twice her weight in gold but that I did not have the means to provide it. He let me have her, anyway ;-)

Tristram wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Jean wrote: "Tristram asked, "but would this not asking him not have struck Victorian readers as a sign of disrespect?" and in terms of correct behaviour in society I think yes, it..."


Is this post of the Freudian persuasion, or a Bierce-ism I have missed out on? Either way, is good reading. :P Happy belated anniversary, Tristram!

Tristram wrote: "Being a rather old-fashioned person in some respects, I made a point of asking my wife's father for his permission to propose to his wife, adding that she was worth twice her weight in gold but that I did not have the means to provide it. He let me have her, anyway ;-) "

Pretty sure that's a typo, and that you didn't really propose to your father-in-law's wife, but since reading it I've been lost in a very entertaining reverie. ;-). As for your FIL's daughter, she's obviously a woman of taste and refinement, and probably neither she nor her father are regretting that decision. (On a personal note - 07/07/07 - written the AMERICAN way! - was my birthday, but I won't tell you which one I was celebrating while you were getting hitched)

Peter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Peter wrote: "We have just learned that we will become grandparents for the first time in March.."

Fabulous news, Peter! Congratulations!"

Peter wrote: "Mary Lou wrot..."

LindaH wrote: "Ami, God question! Are you suspecting Bella knows the truth?"

On my original reading, I thought the disguise and the marriage to have delved into the absurd. However, I went back to the prelim chapters, and taking into consideration Peter's timeline; no, this is one instance I do not think a character is in on the charade. It does appear as if Rokesmith is much changed.... And probably obscenely hairy; reminding me of Oprah's "great makeover" shows from years past... Do you recall some of those grizzly men, who after a proper barbering, literally shaved off thirty years from their appearance? Their wives couldn't maintain their composure from the shocking reveal, in spite of knowing it was always their husband underneath it all. LoL! I don't doubt a nice Victorian fainting episode coming our way, or a passionate exchange of words with Rokesmith, by Bella and deservingly so.

I believe we don't ever forget a man's smile, his eyes, hands, speech patterns, etc., especially if we're enamoured by them? Bella, on the other hand, I don't think was as observant of John Harmon, in general, instead quite taken with the prospects of marrying a man with means; nor was she genuinely in love with the man, more so with the idea of having money, which appears to be the reasoning behind the rouse.

Ami wrote: "Can we please talk about how absolutely convincing Rokesmith's disguise must be for Bella to have married this man and still not realized it's her John Harmon? LoL!"

Did Bella ever meet John Harmon? The only encounter I remember is the one in which his father saw her throwing a tantrum as a little girl. I don't recall a time when the two of them actually met prior to his leaving London. And they wouldn't have had photographs yet. So I'm not a bit surprised she doesn't recognize him. The Boffins, though, who cared for him as a child, are another story.