Victorians! discussion

Gilbert's advances towards Helen become more tense. We meet Mr. Huntingdon and see the spell he casts over Helen.

What kind of character is Gilbert? We also discussed him in week 1, but I suggest we continue here, because of the new events. I thought he seemed sensible and clever at first, but my impression of him jumps back and forth. I think he should be more straight-forward with Eliza that his feelings have changed. She must be confused about the status of their relationship.

He admires Helen's mature and intellectual traits, so then I think he is like that too. But then he suddenly whips Mr. Lawrence and even blaims HIM for having bad manners.

Mr. Lawrence covers for him. Very strange.

I couldn't stop reading this book and finished it last night.. oops.

I hope you enjoyed it, Dee. It is my favorite Bronte Novel.

For me, Gilbert reveals himself to really be selfish and spoiled- a child more than a man. He himself admits he has been spoiled by his mother who puts his needs and those of Fergus above those of Rose.
While it's perfectly fine and understandable that he tries to win over Helen by first establishing a close friendship, if she chooses Mr. Lawrence (and I know we don't yet know the full relationship between Helen and Mr. Lawrence), then it is no business of Gilbert's. Gilbert's attack on Mr. Lawrence in unconscionable, even if part of his justification is Mr. Lawrence's duplicity regarding Helen and Miss Wilson. Gilbert's attack reminds me of a toddler whose toy has been taken away by another child and who just lashes out ferociously.
The question of Gilbert's reliability as narrator is interesting as he does admit after the fact that he acted as a madman. Can we trust his narration?
As for Mr. Huntington, he is obviously a disreputable scoundrel. What is more interesting to me is how Helen totally acts contrary to how she promises her aunt she will behave if faced with an unworthy suitor. Her aunt's warnings were right on the mark. Despite Mr. Huntington's behavior, Helen cannot stop being obsessed with him and displays her own naïveté in her desire and belief that she would actually be able to change him through her good and sensible influence. Obviously some connection between Helen's decision about how to make sure Arthur can resist temptation with what happened to Helen. Although the section ends with Huntington's absolute declaration of devotion to Helen and proposal of marriage after behaving disrespectfully by kissing her, he is certainly not to be trusted.

Charlotte wrote: "Mr. Lawrence covers over him. Very strange. .."

I was about to ask you what you meant by this, then figured it out. Mr. Lawrence covers for him. And yes, this adds to the mystery. Even though we did see Gilbert's temper tantrums before, the violence with which he attacks Mr. Lawrence took me by surprise. It seemed excessive and undoubtedly criminal. Leaving him to quite possibly die. I'm sure if Helen knew the role Gilbert played in Mr. Lawrence's "accident", she would never have given him her journal, or trusted him to never "breathe a word of what it tells you to any living being. I trust to your honour." A promise which is broken before the end of the chapter.

Many writers attempt to narrate in several different voices throughout a novel, but few really succeed. I often wish they wouldn't try, but Chapter 16 sees a new story told by a completely different voice. We've heard quite a bit from Helen as reported by Gilbert, but now she speaks for herself. A younger self. The girl that she was before marriage and motherhood. I find this voice so believable and so different from Gilbert's. Brilliant work.

Ginny, I agree that the new narrative voice was very well done! I noticed the distinct difference between the two that it really was like two different people writing. I was impressed that Anne was able to so clearly write, not only in two different voices, but that one of those was believably a man. Though I didn't care for having to adjust to an entirely new story beginning just as I was getting interested in the first.

Ginny wrote: "Many writers attempt to narrate in several different voices throughout a novel, but few really succeed. I often wish they wouldn't try, but Chapter 16 sees a new story told by a completely differen..."

I agree with you, Ginny. Anne has done a successful job in writing the story using two narrative voices; one male and one female. Both voices are enjoyable but yes - the female voice is more steady and reliable; it is honest and clear - a stark difference from that of the male voice. While I don't consider Gilbert's narrative to be totally unreliable, I find it lacking the complete honesty Helen has showed in hers.

I think the difference in honesty is that Helen is writing a diary that was probably never intended to be read by anyone, but Gilbert's is meant to be a letter to someone. (Edited in case I accidentally wrote a spoiler.)

Charlotte wrote: "What kind of character is Gilbert? We also discussed him in week 1, but I suggest we continue here, because of the new events. I thought he seemed sensible and clever at first, but my impression of him jumps back and forth..."

I think Gilbert is both clever and sensible; but he is also sensitive. This sensitivity coupled with some misunderstandings lead him to act like an immature, infatuated fool.

However, I cannot forgive him for not making an attempt to clear his miunderstanding about Helen and taking his frustration and anger out of poor Mr. Lawrence by whipping him. That action is quite contrary to his character and is almost criminal.

Ashley wrote: "I think the difference in honesty is that Helen is writing a diary that was probably never intended to be read by anyone, but Gilbert's is meant to be a letter to someone. (Edited in case I acciden..."

That is an interesting point, Ashley. That never crossed my mind! Thank you for sharing. :)

I agree with the observations that Helen's narrative demonstrates her honesty in dealing with her conflicting feelings about Huntington and the emotional intensity they provoke.
For Gilbert, what specifically do people find as being unreliable in his letters so far? I was impressed with his honesty in acknowledging his actions toward Mr. Lawrence as being those of a madman. Nothing really pops out to me so far in the novel that would lead me to characterize him as unreliable. Any examples? Thanks.

Someone else may have a better answer to that question, but what makes me see him as "unreliable" is that the book is ultimately about Helen and her experiences. So when the story opens, it's Gilbert's take on Helen that we see. It's his perception of her actions, words, and feelings. Without Helen's direct account of her situation in the parts which aren't the diary, we only see what Gilbert saw or read into Helen's behavior. There are still secrets that Helen is keeping from him, and Gilbert not knowing what those secrets are can color his account of her. But this is just how I understand it. (If any of that rambling even makes sense...) :)

Linda wrote: "For Gilbert, what specifically do people find as being unreliable in his letters so far? I was impressed with his honesty in acknowledging his actions toward Mr. Lawrence as being those of a madman. Nothing really pops out to me so far in the novel that would lead me to characterize him as unreliable. Any examples?"

Gilbert's narrative is at times mixed with his personal feelings. His personal opinion on people made him favourable towards some (Helen and those who say goog things about her) and prejudicial towards others (Eliza, her Reverend father and Miss Wilson). To me, this mix up of his personal feelings with the storytelling is what made his narrative questionable thus making it "unreliable".
This is how I understand; there may be a better explanation than this.

Thanks Ashley and Piyangiue for your comments. I certainly agree that Gilbert's opinions of others are front and center. I'll have to reconsider what we have read so far and Gilbert's future narration keeping your thoughts in mind.

I'm curious as to what you (and others) think about Helen's analysis of Gilbert's reaction to her burning of his portrait. She believes he now hates her for doing it. She regrets her overreaction to his playful spirit. But does he really hate her or are we to infer, beyond her narration, that he is actually manipulating her in order to win her hand? I think the latter is true and that Anne has provided the reader with enough information within this first person narrative to see beyond what the character does. I hope my train of thought is clear!

Linda wrote: "I'm curious as to what you (and others) think about Helen's analysis of Gilbert's reaction to her burning of his portrait. ..."

What chapter is that in? Do you mean Mr. Huntingdon in Ch. 18?

Ginny wrote: "Linda wrote: "I'm curious as to what you (and others) think about Helen's analysis of Gilbert's reaction to her burning of his portrait. ..."

What chapter is that in? Do you mean Mr. Huntingdon in..."

If that is the scene you mean, I definitely think he is being very strategic--playing games that she doesn't understand. And already I feel he is a bully.

I hated how he would take her drawings! It made me angry. I draw and paint and if someone were to take something of mine in that way, I would definitely not continue to be friendly with him! Helen was far too naïve, and it was disheartening. I just wanted to shout at her to open her eyes.

I agree I feel he is a bully. His behavior in church really sent off alarm bells in my mind. His friends were gamblers and rascals. Plus he squandered half of his property. How many women get married thinking they can change a man's ways. You just knew this marriage was headed for disaster. It makes you wonder why love is so blind? It clouded Helen's good judgement. Curious to know what people thought of the Aunt. Too strict or a smart woman.

Ginny wrote: "Linda wrote: "I'm curious as to what you (and others) think about Helen's analysis of Gilbert's reaction to her burning of his portrait. ..."

What chapter is that in? Do you mean Mr. Huntingdon in..."

Yes, I was referring to Chapter 18. I'm impressed that within the constraints of Helen's diary, Anne is able to provide us with enough information about Mr. Huntington so that we can come to a different conclusion about his behavior and motivations than Helen- obviously besotted- does.

Cindy wrote: "I agree I feel he is a bully. His behavior in church really sent off alarm bells in my mind. His friends were gamblers and rascals. Plus he squandered half of his property. How many women get marri..."

I thinks she is both strict and smart. She knew exactly what could happen if Helen fell in love with someone. Logical thinking flies out the window and her previous declarations that she would absolutely make sure that her suitors would be worthy and respectable have been abandoned. Her aunt is trying to protect her from an awful decision. Has Helen become more like her aunt in her rearing of Arthur? I'm sure that answer lies in Helen's story as it's revealed to us. Suspenseful.

I think that Helen is actually quite intelligent. Perhaps, the absence of any interesting young men in her neighborhood made her especially susceptible to Huntingdon. Also, the presence of Mr. Wilmot and Mr. Boarham did not help. They were both her uncle's contemporaries. Their constant presence would have frustrated her, and caused her to make foolish decisions.

Robin and Victorian Mary G, how are you doing with your reading and what do you think?

It is so painful watching Helen fall for Mr. Huntington when we know this is heading in a bad direction...

Cindy wrote: "Curious to know what people thought of the Aunt. Too strict or a smart woman...."

I think she is both. Having raised Helen, she must have known her susceptibility. She saw through Mr. Huntingdon and knew he is trouble. It is really sad that Helen did not listen to her.

But then again, as Bharathi stated, she had little choice of young men. Both suitors, which her aunt and uncle promoted, were old gentlemen. And Helen had a genuine fear of one of them being forced upon her. Helen is an intelligent young woman but her desperation probably overrode any rational judgement.

Did the Aunt and Uncle have names? I was wondering if I missed it somewhere.

Cindy wrote: "Did the Aunt and Uncle have names?"

Mr. and Mrs. Maxwell. I don't remember their first names being mentioned.

I'm afraid I haven't caught up on all of the comments yet so please forgive me if I repeat certain thoughts.

I was desperately peeved, indeed shocked, with Gilbert's action on Mr Lawrence. It was so apparently unprovoked, well perhaps not entirely, and I could hear myself shouting at Gilbert for his drastic actions which were certainly borne out of immaturity. Ghastly. Mr Lawrence had done nothing to deserve it, as far as we know. He didn't owe Gilbert anything. And he certainly didn't owe him an explanation. I'm actively cross with Gilbert!

I was disappointed at the change of pace. Throwbacks aren't generally my cup of tea. I just wish that Anne had been able to find another way to incorporate character introduction. In spite of this, though, she did a fine job with the atmosphere. The Brontës are nothing if not atmospheric.

Lol. Definitely atmospheric writers!

Piyangie wrote: "I hope you enjoyed it, Dee. It is my favorite Bronte Novel."

It is an amazing, wonderful book, so far ahead of its time!

Piyangie wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Curious to know what people thought of the Aunt. Too strict or a smart woman...."

I think she is both. Having raised Helen, she must have known her susceptibility. She saw through Mr..."

I think she was just wise enough to recognize a bad man when she saw one.

While I don't excuse Gilbert's whacking Mr. Lawrence, I do understand where he is coming from. He is the only one we know of so far who has really made an effort to get to know Helen, and he has feelings for her. From all sides she gets attacked by vicious gossip, even the vicar, who should be above such vices, partakes. The vicar's account, who is a person of status in the community, gives credibility to the rumors, and Gilbert begins to believe them too. Yet there must be a part of him that refuses to fully believe in them. We as the readers, are in limbo here too.
Adding to it, there are so many unanswered questions about Helen, all of which don't help her cause. What is the reason for this?
Then we have Mr. Lawrence having a very tender relationship with Helen. Who is he? A lover? A friend? A relative? We don't yet know, all we know is that all of these vague facts and rumors are piling up and Gilbert finally snaps. He airs his frustrations in a way typical to (some) males, he whacks Mr. Lawrence. If this were a movie, you could bet your bottom dollar the bulk of the men in the theater would burst out laughing...and trying to appease their dates for their cave-man reaction. :)
But here is the clue as to why Mr. Lawrence doesn't rat Gilbert out. He knows why Gilbert whacked him, and for reasons only known to him (and possibly Helen) he keeps quiet. Is it possible Mr. Lawrence is protecting Helen? Is it more important to protect her than to expose Gilbert? Is it possible Mr. Lawrence has even admiration for Gilbert and takes his whacking as a badge of honor?

Kerstin wrote: "While I don't excuse Gilbert's whacking Mr. Lawrence, I do understand where he is coming from. He is the only one we know of so far who has really made an effort to get to know Helen, and he has fe..."
Nicely argued. I think he is protecting Helen. It will be very interesting to get to the heart of the Mr L and Helen relationship. Still no answer by Ch 37...

Kerstin wrote: "While I don't excuse Gilbert's whacking Mr. Lawrence, I do understand where he is coming from. He is the only one we know of so far who has really made an effort to get to know Helen, and he has fe..."

Nice point of view, Kerstin. Mr. Lawrence seems to be protecting Helen. While his relationship with Helen is quite mysterious, I would rule out him being her lover; more like he would be a friend or relative. While Mr. Lawrence is angry with Gilbert for whipping him, it looks like he grudgingly admires him, for he knows or at least suspects why Gilbert acted in that manner.