Jane Austen discussion

In the first 3 chapters of this wonderful book we get introduced to the Bertram family and Mrs. Norris. We are also introduced to the heroine of the book Fanny Price.

The opening chapters of MP are always very moving to me, the first time (in one of her published novels) that JA has the courage to step out and express intimately the feelings of her heroine, right from the start, without ironic distance. Bearing in mind that one of JA's brothers was taken out of her own family and raised by wealthier connections, I feel that her depiction of Fanny's sufferings upon arrival at Mansfield Park are totally sincere, and her sarcastic comments about Mrs. Norris and the careless neglect of the other Bertrams (except Edmund) are more bitter than is her wont. ("Mrs. Norris . . . consoled herself for the loss of her husband by considering that she could do very well without him"--ouch.)

This is my first read of MP and I have just completed ch's 1-3.

What a group of odious people! I think it is JAs evil genius to use what I consider to be rather neutral language to paint a picture for the reader of characters who are not very likable.

Poor Fanny!

Hi everyone!
I’m happy to do this reading (for me re-reading) of Mansfield Park with you! This novel is, with Northanger Abbey, the one I liked less among Jane Austen’s work but I hope to come to appreciate it as well.

Chapter 1
There are some differences between this novel and the others. The first that caught my attention is that, for the first time, narration starts from the heroine’s childhood. It’s an interesting choice and I think it was dictated by the need of showing how Fanny established her relationships with the Bertram family. It could have been shown even starting from adulthood, but this way we perfectly understand from the beginning how it is that Fanny Price lives at Mansfield.
Mrs. Norris qualifies herself as the disturbance of the story (she would have been a perfect Lady Catherine, had she possessed more money!), anyway her suggestion to take care of one of her sister’s child seems quite generous and out of character. What do you think?
Sir Thomas seems the most sensible member of the family, he is really concerned about his ability to raise this additional child and probably he would have acted differently, had not been for Mrs. Norris influence… but I don’t want to reveal too much.

Chapter 2
The edition I’m reading contains several interesting notes. There is one about this chapter that I want to share with you.

“[…] Explicitly concerned with female education, Mansfield Park explores not only the intellectual but the moral distance between mere “accomplishments” and the deeper understanding that signals self-knowledge. In the novel’s early chapters, Austen is above all at pains to distinguish the appearance of education from the reality. […]”

In the second chapter we can see it clearly, I think. There is a huge difference between Edmund’s behavior (that testify his good nature and true education) and everyone else’s. He is the only one who really cares about Fanny’s comfort and tries to give her the tools to gain an education herself. Moreover there’s the contrast between Fanny and the Miss Bertram: the first shy, poor and ignorant but really clever and willing to improve, and the other two, who think themselves cleverer when, in truth, her advantage comes only from a better economical situation.
I find that in Mansfield Park the contrast between true education and the appearance of that is more marked. However it’s not absent in the other novels; just think about the conversation between Caroline Bingley, Darcy and Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice!


Chapter 3
The first paragraphs of this chapter made me think “Sir Thomas, some more firmness with this son, thank you!”. He clearly tries to be a good father and his ways work with Edmund, who is already good natured, but seem far too feeble for Thomas who is “careless and extravagant”.
On the other side, the only word that I can think about to describe Lady Bertram is useless, even more useless than Mrs. Bennet (sorry, I can’t help. I have to compare everything to P&P!), at least she tried to find husbands for her daughters.

Pride and Prejudice is by far my favourite, followed by Sense and Sensibility, and my third of Austen's work is Mansfield Park. I love that this character is so unique. I personally found the best way to appreciate this work is to not compare it with her other works' characters other than to appreciate just how different this book truly is. I know it is hard, it was for me at first, but truthfully I have come to just love Mansfield Park. The beginning three chapters, I feel, give us a great foreshadowing of each of the characters. Austen writes in such a way that we already form opinions of their personalities beyond their words. Fanny I feel is the most misunderstood, though, and I have to wonder if it was on purpose. We see a different strength in Fanny than we would see in most female leads. She has the ability to take in her surroundings and act accordingly. Not that she is overly obsequious, but she truly wants peace. She is a different kind of human being. Rare, I think. To not miss someone because he is basically an ass for most of us is justifiable, but she truly feels shame in not feeling sorrow. She thinks less of herself instead of him though it is he that made it so difficult. I have to say, the world would be a far better place with more Fanny Price's in it. I know a lot of people say she is so weak-minded or weak-willed, but I think it's easy to lose your temper or become bitter, it takes a lot of strength to hold back. I doubt I could keep my mouth shut if a relative basically told me I would never be welcomed as more than a "sister" figure, and even then still only as a less than equal sibling. I would probably take my chances elsewhere especially with those two shallow air-heads for sisters. Edmund, would make the difference, but I don't know that I would have stayed long enough to find that out... But Fanny does, and without even trying she finds out that he is the best reason to stay. I almost feel like he was drawn to her, not because he felt an obligation, but because he knew that she was unique. I am sure her crying was more of an affirmation of that when he only has his sisters around and they are just brats. I love that we see a kindness in Edmund unlike his sisters. It mirrors the sweetness in Fanny. I think that is probably what I love most about this love story, it isn't opposites attracting, it isn't instant physical chemistry, it's a love that is mutual even in its primary stages. It may not be the love most people want at first, but it's understandable as they ARE so young. I love that it evolves with them. Of course that is later... So I guess here is where I should stop. I really have to pace myself with Austen, I often want to finish the book every time I open it. Her writing always consumes me.

Caledonia wrote: "Pride and Prejudice is by far my favourite, followed by Sense and Sensibility, and my third of Austen's work is Mansfield Park. I love that this character is so unique. I personally found the best ..."

Jane Austen said about Emma that she was an heroine no one but her would have liked, however Fanny is probably her more misunderstood character.
You defend her very well and I agree in part with your opinion of her, she is surely a rare humanbeing with a purity of feeling that is uncommon.
However there are passages in the book that almost make me scream "Come on girl! Say something to that hoity-toity wretch!"
Strangely every time I read the book she keeps keeping silent...

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "This is my first read of MP and I have just completed ch's 1-3.

What a group of odious people! I think it is JAs evil genius to use what I consider to be rather neutral language to paint a picture..."

Since it's your first reading of Mansfield Park, we'll try not to spoil the surprise.
Jane Austen for sure had a genius at showing what the characters are without judge them directly, so that we are free to form our opinion on the matter.

@Irene
Haha I know what you mean. She was a big crybaby the first time I read this book and it drove me nuts! I just kept thinking, "Stop crying and do something about it!" But after I stopped wanting her to be Elizabeth and use her wit to put people in their place, I realized that her crying was a way for her to find strength in herself. I am personally not big on crying, I hate it and try my best to suck it up and walk away before ANYone can see me cry. It took a while before I would even cry in front of my Husband and even after 5 years he still is amazed that I just don't do it. I guess that's why I can see her strength in her tears, she needs it. But she definitely overcomes her woes and it may not be with a sharp tongue or with visible indifference, but with a kindness and a search for happiness within her surroundings. I like that about her the most.

Caledonia says, "Not that she is overly obsequious, but she truly wants peace. She is a different kind of human being. Rare, I think."
I think for JA, whose father was a minister, both Fanny and Edmund are her attempt to show how real people, with all their strengths and weaknesses, could focus their lives on what was then known as "Christian love." Not a Christian myself, but I find that type of selfless, outward-facing kindness and sympathy to be very moving. She is harsh on the other characters because they're not (except, occasionally, Sir Thomas) even aiming for achieving that state of mind.

That makes sense Abigail. I myself am not a Christian and find myself more and more of a Pagan if I had to choose a religion. Not that they aren't a kind people, but "heathens" are often considered barbaric. I didn't even consider a religious aspect from JA for their overly kind natures, even though he was going for clergyman, I was just thinking that was a common living back then.

I'm not very hard on heroines apparently. My main reaction to the first part of the story is wanting someone to rush in there, hug her and tell her everything will be OK. :-)

Though as usual with Austen, her characters instantly remind me of people I've known. I've known several Mrs. Norris sorts and a few Lady Bertrams. Never any Fanny's though.... :-)

RE: Caledonia's comment: Isn't it odd how people whose spirituality is based first and foremost on ethics (An ye harm none, do what ye will) are demonized as barbaric and worse. ;-)

Abigail, It is strange. Especially when most are about harmony and you get back what you put out in the world. But people tend to fear the unknown. We can see that when the Bertram's are worrying over her personality even before she gets there. I think it's so funny that they have needier personalities than Fanny yet they were the worried ones.

Just a quick message to tell you all that I am amazed at how deep the discussion is already. Thank you for making this re-read special!

Wow! I love the discussion that's going on. This is my 4th JA novel (I've read P&P, Sense and Sensibility, and Persuasion). I absolutely love the fact that the reader is introduced to Fanny's childhood and the development of her relationships with her family members. I can understand how people can perceive Fanny to be a weak character but I don't think I would be emotionally stable if I was given up by one family to barely be accepted by another. She has it pretty tough and my opinion. It bothers me so much that she doesn't have any confidence in herself. In my edition (Barnes and Noble Classic) pg. 23 she states that she could never be important to anyone because of her "foolishness and awkwardness." That just tore me apart. But so far I'm really into it.

I believe someone stated earlier that Mrs. Norris is like a Lady Catherine with less money! Haha I totally agree with that.

Ashley, I decided to read their classic edition, too! Hardcover. =) Love the way they bound it! Anywhos, I agree, that statement is so full of honest self degradation that it is heart breaking. Some women put themselves down so they can hear others lift them up. Fanny truly believes she can never amount to anything and I just want to hug the crap out of her for it and I want to give her a V8 head smack, too... She has so much more than the rest, especially Mrs. Norris! I will say, not that it excuses it, but with Lady Katherine, at least she was already in the money and raised in it her whole life, she was practically taught to be a stuck up lazy snob... What excuse does Mrs. Norris have? She is self-important and lazy simply because that is who she is down to her very last DNA strand. I think that is what annoys me about her. She has no excuse!

At least Fanny had Edmond. While I somewhat like Sir Bertram he took a massive hit for his hideous comments to Fanny before he left. What a.... Well HE is certainly not the thing! :-)

Valshar, so true! Lol Edmund really makes everything worth it ;)

For me is so weird see the book starting with Fanny childhood. My favourite JA book is Persuassion. In this one the action starts just in the midle of the story, with a non taled past of Anna and the captain.

I think Mrs Norris is a busy body and an officious hypocrite.

My first time reading it too. Unfortunately I am reading on Kindle as my JA collection is in one giant (albeit beautiful) hardback, which would be rather difficult to take on the train to work every day! Lovely few opening chapters of the book though, it's an interesting start to begin with the childhood of the character, but I rather like it.

@Rachel

I too am reading " portable " JA as well. I read on the bus and on lunch breaks via a kindle app on my iPhone. I am reading some other books for another GR group. I will not be able to keep up with them all if some are not convenient for "portability ."

I think JA's writing is masterful in this book as in all of her others ... but I have a problem with MP because I don't really like any of the characters, with the only real exceptions being Susan Price, Fanny's younger sister and her brother William. Fanny and Edmund are OK, but not exactly people I want in my life.

Re Susan Price

This is my first time reading this book and I haven't reached the point in the book where Susan Price is introduced.

As a first time reader of this title, I'll be prepared to discuss Susan Price when she is introduced.

Well, I already finished the book. ;) I just had to keep on reading until I was done! However, I will try to hold back my comments on the later parts of the book until it is time to discuss them. ;)

This was my first time reading MP. I did really enjoy the book, however, it just can't measure up to my favorites, Pride & Prejudice and Emma. I agree that it is hard not to compare MP with an all-time favorite like P&P. ;) I think the style of writing in this book is somewhat different from her other books. It was definitely more serious than P&P, but Austen's wit and humor still shows through at times throughout the book.

As for the characters, there are definitely some likable, and very unlikable, ones. ;) I really liked the character of Fanny. She is extremely tender and emotional, but not so much as to be weak or cowardly. True, I did wish at times that she would speak up more, or assert her opinions more decidedly, but that would have gone against her innate character and sweetness. Like Caledonia said, she has a different sort of strength than you would normally see. Her strength is in her meek, peaceful spirit, and in her abilities to comfort, support, and aid others in more passive actions and deeds, sometimes without saying a word. She is a wonderful listener, which is shown to several people throughout the book. But I don't want to give away anything here. ;) Anyway, I can really relate to Fanny, almost more than any other Austen heroine. I can see myself in her in a lot of ways.

Mrs. Norris.....ARGGHHH!! :P She's the most annoying character in the book, I think. She kind of reminded me of Mrs. Bennet in a way, being so ambitious and thinking herself so cunning, yet never really accomplishing anything.

I like how Irene said that Lady Bertram is more useless than Mrs. Bennet because she does absolutely nothing except sit around as a room ornament and let out an occasional whimper. :P

I really started liking Edmund in the first few chapters of the book. He is the only one who really takes notice of Fanny and tries to make her feel welcome and comfortable. He is so sweet and kind to her, a total opposite of the rest of the family. I feel so bad for Fanny when she is learning new things about geography, history, and just life in general, and her cousins and Mrs. Norris assume right off that she must be very stupid and lacking a good memory to not know those things already. They are so stuck in their pride and high class society that they can't even imagine that somebody coming from a poorer family wouldn't have the means to receive all the education and culture of a higher class family.

Susan Price is a bit character, as is William Price.

I just get all riled up with how Mrs. Norris and the family try to undermine Fanny's intelligence. Firstly, when she couldn't stop being sad for leaving her home,

" 'This is not a very promising beginning', said Mrs. Norris, when Fanny left the room. 'After all that I said to her as we came along, I thought she would have behaved better; I told her how much might depend upon her acquitting herself well at first.' "

and,

" It required a longer time, however, than Mrs. Norris was inclined to allow, to reconcile Fanny to the novelty of Mansfield Park, and the separation from everybody she had been used to. Her feelings were very acute, and too little understood to be properly attended to. Nobody meant to be unkind, but nobody put themselves out of their way to secure her comfort.",

as if a child is supposed to be impressed with material wealth and grandeur. She is used to love and companionship of people who consider her equal so what is all that wealth to her. She was forced to come to a house where everyone is looking down on her. She is not stupid and can see how things are. What should she really be grateful for after only a few days in an unknown environment surrounded with unpleasent people? Ugh!

Oh, and don't get me started on little Miss Bertrams and Mrs. Norris

"They could not but hold her cheap on finding that she had but two sashes (Seriously!), and had never learned French..."


"...it is not at all necessary that she should be as accomplished as you are; on the contrary, it is much more desireable that there should be a difference."

"...and it is not very wonderful that, with all their promising talents and early information, they should be entirely deficient in the less common acquirements of self-knowledge, generosity, and humility."

Shows how education does not necessarily mean intelligence.

Fanny's sadness upon leaving her poor, over-crowded, noisy home seems strange to us, unless we can remember what it is like to be a child. Children are so good at forgetting the bad and having a liking for the status-quo that even though Fanny was easily dispensed with by her parents (and she had to have known that), she still misses them and her siblings and all that is familiar, even though her home situation was less than ideal.

The fact that she cries for them makes her in my eyes a sensitive girl with an incredibly kind nature. She'd rather have foregone the education, the money, the chance to "better" herself than to lose her deficient family.

And Mrs. Norris! Was she born that way, or has a constant life of pandering to herself simply made her the most supremely selfish woman in the world? Now that I think of it, all three sisters left a lot to be desired in their characters. Hmmmm. Maybe we should blame their parents...

The first few sentences really make you think about Lady Bertram and Sir Thomas's relationship.She captivated him.There is nothing about love or respect in this.I think he must have been taken in by her beauty and that she agrees with whatever he says.I wonder if he had ever thought about what kind of women he wanted to marry.He seems happy with her and doesn't seem to regret his choice even if the women to use Irene's word is useless.

@ Irene I never thought Mrs.Bennet and Lady Bertram had much in common to me.Mrs.Bennet is more of busy body and wants to get her daughters married.Lady Bertram only thinks about herself and her pug.Mrs.Bennet is also very self involved but in a different way.She draws attention to herself with her nerves but Lady Bertram doesn't care as long is she is comfortable.

Maria and Julia are rich and handsome but immoral and not very nice.They are both treated well and praised(but then again they are praised by Mrs.Norris,which might be worst then no praise at all).Fanny on the other hand is poor,plain,and treated badly by all but Edmund yet she is the nicer moral person.Money and Rank have nothing to do with kindness.

Mrs.Norris is my most hated Austen character.She makes herself feel big but making others feel small.She is one of the cruelest and most selfish characters in all of JA novels.

I love Fanny and really connect with her.I had someone in my life for a year who told me I was stupid,worthless,would never do anything,ect...She verbally abused me every day.I now how Fanny feels being beat down and Fanny is too kind a soul to speak up for herself and thinks to lowly of herself to think she should defend herself.Yet like Caledina said it is easy to get bitter but she doesn't.Plus she continues reading and learning even when her cousins call her stupid.Edmund helps but it is easy to give up and she doesn't.


I think that Maria and Julia will give up all learning and impoving themselfs when they get 17 at least that is what they said and believe them.I don't think Fanny will ever give up learning and improving herself where she can.

Edmund is one of my favorite heroes.His kindness,common sense,morals,and understanding make him on of my favorites.Fanny is lucky to have such a good friend.Edmund and Fanny are the only two of all the characters at Mansfield Park who are people I would want to talk or meet.

@Samanta I agree education doesn't mean intelligence

What I love most about JA's depiction of Fanny is the way she shows how a person with no power in her life can still be true to herself. She's completely at the mercy of these godawful people, yet when it's something important to her, she stands up for it. (But maybe I'm reading a little too far ahead--this is more of a chapters 7-9 comment!)

Norris and the Miss Bertrams are perfect examples of bullies.

Just wanted to ask: is anyone else having trouble getting access to the chapters 4-6 thread?

I just got in ok, try this

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

That did it! Thanks, Louise!

You’re welcome.

Well, this is a re-read for me, but it’s been a while. Jane Austen sets the picture beautifully, all these well brought up people looking down on their poor relation, but you can easily see what they are really like. Only Edmund even tries to understand how she is feeling.

Fanny is certainly tender-hearted but how much of her selflessness is due to her own natural qualities and how much is her upbringing? She left everything she had ever known and was told to be grateful for the change. She was constantly told she wasn’t as good/clever as her cousins by people in authority. Is it wonderful that she believed them and blamed herself?

Louise that's a good point. I never thought about the fact that Fanny's personality/demeanor could be due to the manner in which she was raised. I wonder what she would have been like if she wasn't forced to leave home.