The Pickwick Club discussion
Martin Chuzzlewit
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Chuzzlewit, Chapters 24 - 26
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"Please sir, I want more Mrs. Gamp." If I may make a twist on that phrase (ouch, very bad pun) I'm very glad we are back on English soil. "Ah, said Mrs. Gamp ... he'd make a lovely corpse." Dickens at his finest. It seems to me that this chapter is much stronger, on firmer ground, written with more energy and even confidence than the American chapters. Does anyone else feel this shift in confidence?Tristram is right. Good for Tom Pinch to be more assertive. I think as Dickens rounds out Tom's personality he will continue to be more and more interesting to following. I'm also enjoying the presence and growth of Mark Tapley's character.. With John Westlock back in the picture, we seem to have these three amigos of minor characters spicing up the novel to a great degree.
Peter,as far as I'm concerned, I can't get enough of Mrs. Gamp, and I will read one of her wonderful monologues whenever I am so dispoged ... As well as the American chapters, Mrs. Gamp apparently owes her appearance in the novel to the waning numbers in sales the instalments experienced, but unlike the American chapters, she is definitely well-integrated into the novel. In Chapter 25 she even seems to have some important plot-related function as the invalid she is looking after seems to know something about Jonas. Even here, Mrs. Gamp's indignant remarks to the fever-dreaming man seem to carry more meaning than she is aware of. When the man says, "'Crape! Black crape! Good God! why do they wear it outside?'"
she retorts, "'Would you have 'em carry black crape in their insides?'"
To Mrs. Gamp the wearing of black would, of course, be an outside-matter, which also becomes clear during her conversation with the Moulds. But in the light of Jonas's bedgruding his father the days he spent alive, and of his attempts at pacifying - his conscience? no, rather public opinion, and suspicion - these remarks can be read in a different vein.
To Mrs. Gamp (as to Jonas, Pecksniff, the Moulds and the doctor), mourning seems to be mainly something that is shown to the public rather than felt.
Another instance that shows how Mrs. Gamp has turned what is to do with feelings to most mortals into a business and which also relates her to Mrs. Todgers and her look of pleasure/calculation can be found in Chapter 26:
"With a leer of mingled sweetness and slyness; with one eye on the future, one on the bride, and an arch expression in her face, partly spiritual, partly spirituous, and wholly professional and peculiar to her art; Mrs Gamp rummaged in her pocket again, and took from it a printed card, whereon was an inscription copied from her signboard."
However, as Mrs. Todgers, Mrs. Gamp is probably partly excused because she is forced to earn a living in a generally not too kind world. She remarks herself to Mr. Mould that she is a poor person, and she also allows the reader to get a short glimpse into her past when she talks about her son. What we read there is again a mixture of mockery and misery:
"'Oh yes, you do know, sir!' said Mrs Gamp, 'and so does Mrs Mould, your 'ansome pardner too, sir; and so do I, although the blessing of a daughter was deniged me; which, if we had had one, Gamp would certainly have drunk its little shoes right off its feet, as with our precious boy he did, and arterward send the child a errand to sell his wooden leg for any money it would fetch as matches in the rough, and bring it home in liquor; which was truly done beyond his years, for ev'ry individgle penny that child lost at toss or buy for kidney ones; and come home arterwards quite bold, to break the news, and offering to drown himself if sech would be a satisfaction to his parents.—Oh yes, you do know, sir,' said Mrs Gamp, wiping her eye with her shawl, and resuming the thread of her discourse. 'There's something besides births and berryins in the newspapers, an't there, Mr Mould?'"
Apart from all that, Mrs. Gamp is most certainly good fun what with her exuberant imagination and her garbled imagery:
"'[...] I will not deny,' said Mrs Gamp with meekness, 'that I am but a poor woman, and that the money is a object; but do not let that act upon you, Mr Mould. Rich folks may ride on camels, but it an't so easy for 'em to see out of a needle's eye. That is my comfort, and I hope I knows it.'"
Tristram"Mockery and misery." Your phrase is perfect. With the addition of Mrs. Gamp to inflate (or would that be rescue) the flagging sales we have another example of Dickens bringing onto the stage a character to please his audience. Just as Sam Weller comes to more and more prominence in PP so comes Gamp here.
Your extended analysis above was great to read. Perhaps all Pickwickians should get T-shirts with the phrase "Gamp Is Great" embossed on them. Whenever we were approached by someone on the street wondering the meaning of the phrase we could spread the word of Dickens. Naturally, whenever someone approached us and knew who Gamp was we'd have made a new friend.
Mrs. Gamp Has Her Eye on the Future
Chapter 26
In Chapter 24 I read this:"Hallo, Pecksniff!' cried Mr Jonas from the parlour. 'Isn't somebody a-going to open that precious old door of yours?'
'Immediately, Mr Jonas. Immediately.'
'Ecod,' muttered the orphan, 'not before it's time neither. Whoever it is, has knocked three times, and each one loud enough to wake the--' he had such a repugnance to the idea of waking the Dead, that he stopped even then with the words upon his tongue, and said, instead, 'the Seven Sleepers.'
I wanted to know who the "Seven Sleepers" were so I looked it up:
"The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was a group of Christian youths who hid inside a cave outside the city of Ephesus around 250 AD, to escape a persecution of Christians being conducted during the reign of the Roman emperor Decius.
The story alleges that during the persecutions of the Roman emperor Decius, around 250 AD, seven young men were accused of following Christianity. They were given some time to recant their faith, but chose instead to give their worldly goods to the poor and retire to a mountain cave to pray, where they fell asleep. The emperor, seeing that their attitude towards paganism had not improved, ordered the mouth of the cave to be sealed.
Decius died in 251, and many years passed during which Christianity went from being persecuted to being the state religion of the Roman Empire. At some later time—usually given as during the reign of Theodosius II (408–450)—the landowner decided to open up the sealed mouth of the cave, thinking to use it as a cattle pen. He opened it and found the sleepers inside. They awoke, imagining that they had slept but one day, and sent one of their number to Ephesus to buy food, with instructions to be careful lest the pagans recognize and seize him. Upon arriving in the city, this person was astounded to find buildings with crosses attached; the townspeople for their part were astounded to find a man trying to spend old coins from the reign of Decius. The bishop was summoned to interview the sleepers; they told him their miracle story, and died praising God.
As the earliest versions of the legend spread from Ephesus, an early Christian catacomb came to be associated with it, attracting scores of pilgrims. On the slopes of Mount Pion (Mount Coelian) near Ephesus (near modern Selçuk in Turkey), the "grotto" of the Seven Sleepers with ruins of the church built over it was excavated in 1927–28. The excavation brought to light several hundred graves dated to the 5th and 6th centuries. Inscriptions dedicated to the Seven Sleepers were found on the walls of the church and in the graves. This "grotto" is still shown to tourists."
I was wondering if Mrs. Gamp was based on a real person because it seems like so many Dickens characters are, and this is what I found:"Mrs. Gamp is said to have had an original in real life. It was while Dickens was already at work on Martin Chuzzlewit that he heard, through his rich friend, Angela Burdett-Coutts, of a nurse who took care of her companion Hannah Meredith. The nurse was eccentric in several respects, and things like her yellow nightcap, her fondness for snuff and for spirits were immediately transferred to Mrs. Gamp."
Now I wanted to know who Angela Burdett-Coutts and Hannah Meredith were:
"Angela Burdett-Coutts was widely known as "the richest heiress in England". She was a great collector of paintings, including many Old Masters. Amongst the contemporary paintings she purchased was Robert Scott Lauder's Christ Walking on the Sea. She became a notable subject of public curiosity, receiving numerous offers of marriage. She inherited the country house at Holly Lodge Estate in Highgate, which was then just outside London, where she was famous for holding receptions.
Burdett-Coutts spent part of each year at Ehrenberg Hall in Torquay with her former governess and later companion Hannah Brown, to whom she was devoted. She was a great friend of both Charles Dickens and the Duke of Wellington, and she proposed to the Duke despite the great disparity in their ages. When Brown died in 1878, Burdett-Coutts wrote to a friend that she was utterly crushed by the loss of "my poor darling, the companion and sunshine of my life for 52 years".
Three years later, when she was 67, she shocked polite society by marrying her 29-year-old secretary, the American-born William Lehman Ashmead Bartlett, who became MP for Westminster on 12 February 1881. Her new husband changed his surname to Burdett-Coutts. Because of her husband's American birth a clause in her stepgrandmother's will forbidding her heir to marry a foreign national was invoked and Burdett-Coutts forfeited three-fifths of her income to her sister.
Burdett-Coutts spent the majority of her wealth on scholarships, endowments, and a wide range of philanthropic causes. One of her earliest philanthropic acts was to co-found (with Charles Dickens) a home for young women who had "turned to a life of immorality", including theft and prostitution. The home was known as Urania Cottage. Martin Chuzzlewit is dedicated to her."
KimEvery time you do your research and commentary I learn something. I knew some background on Burdett-Coutts but you have filled in the dark corners. Burdett-Coutts's charity extended to North America as well. Evidently, she donated money to the building of a church here in Victoria. There is a street named Burdett in the old part of this city.
Your research on the Seven Sleepers was wonderful as well. To me, it shows that Dickens was much like a magpie. Who knows where this information first came to him? ... friends, personal reading, anecdotes drifting past his ears, or whatever ... . still when I have someone ask or wonder "did the author mean that?" I feel confident in responding "yes." I think great authors have gifts that even they perhaps are not fully aware of, and some magic happens between their brain and the strokes of their pens that give readers so many levels to explore.
Your research is a key that unlocks many insights.
Tristram wrote: "To Mrs. Gamp (as to Jonas, Pecksniff, the Moulds and the doctor), mourning seems to be mainly something that is shown to the public rather than felt."I do agree. We see, for example, Oliver Twist being used as a mute to showcase publicly how much mourning the family is willing to pay for. I'm sure there was some genuine grieving, but the public element of it seems to be very important (black bow or wreath on the door, curtains drawn, black attire, long funeral procession, etc.)
Peter wrote: ""Please sir, I want more Mrs. Gamp." If I may make a twist on that phrase (ouch, very bad pun) I'm very glad we are back on English soil. "Ah, said Mrs. Gamp ... he'd make a lovely corpse." Dicke..."LOL. You picked out my favourite quote from these chapters, Peter. I couldn't help but laugh as she rearranged his limbs to see what he would look like as a corpse.
I agree about Dickens being more confident. Being in England seems to bring with it a more 'solid' foundation for the story. You can tell that he has more knowledge about his English characters (as you'd expect) than he does the Americans. I think his naivety shows through here, depicting all Americans (or at least all the ones in the novel) as being so arrogant. To me, perhaps being English, I feel that his American characters are stereotyped to the extreme. However, what do we expect when Dickens is the King of Caricature, but I do think he has been a little naughty. He could have created some nice Americans. Obviously, he had a massive grudge against them.
Haha, Tristram, 'dispoged' ... Love it. I love the idea of the Mrs Gamp T-Shirts, Peter. I think there'd be a market for them!! I'd buy one and wear it. Thank you, Kim, for your extensive research; so helpful.Ch. 25 is Dickens back on form. There are too
many parts to mention. I loved this though: talking of Mrs Gamp: "She's the sort of woman now," said Mould, ..."one would almost feel disposed to bury for nothing: and do it neatly too!"
I fear that I see part of myself in our dear Mrs Gamp. When she is offered rum she cast 'up her eyes to the ceiling, feigned to be wholly insensible to the fact of a glass of rum being in preparation, until it was placed in her hand by one of the young ladies, when she exhibited the greatest surprise.'
Go, Mrs Gamp, go, you wonderful creature!!!
Hilary wrote: "Haha, Tristram, 'dispoged' ... Love it. I love the idea of the Mrs Gamp T-Shirts, Peter. I think there'd be a market for them!! I'd buy one and wear it. Thank you, Kim, for your extensive resea..."Ah, yes 'dispoged', do you know I was wondering if anyone but Dickens, and now Tristram every used that word, so of course I looked and found this poem by Clarence Michael James Stanislaus Dennis called:
"When So Dispoged"
Oh, foolish flapper, keen to be
Considered cute and up-to-date,
Sit down a while and hark to me,
And I shall truly read your fate
Not in a tea-cup, sweetling mine;
But in the leas of a gin-and-two,
Manhattans swigged before the wine,
Martinis guzzled ere you dine;
There shall I trace your fortune true.
What see we in the stickly smear
Where still the liquor lingers, damp?
A sorry group of hags are here -
Gin-eaters, such as Mistress Gamp.
Here lurks a warning, precious pet,
For those who walk the wobbly path.
That crystal fluid, don't forget,
Was ne'er ingurgitated yet
Without some awful aftermath.
And here we see your own sweet self
Sipping some hocussed hypocrene.
Innocuous? Nay, charming elf,
It may be colored pink or green,
Ambrosial amber; 'spite the hue
Such dopes deceptive men sneak in
Its basic bane yet lingers true;
It's giggle-juice, a droll's brew,
It's 'mother's ruin,' per; it's GIN!
Gin that has brought the shame of age,
The maudlin speech, the muddled mind,
Since olden days to saint and sage,
To Sairey Gamp and all her kind.
And if you (as I'll not suppose)
Be 'so dispoged' to misbehave,
I read your progress to the close:
The glazing eye, the reddening nose,
The hobnail liver, and the grave.
Wow, Kim!! That is fantastic; Mrs Gamp famed in poetry! So clever and such a great find.Just a wee word in relation to gin: in Ireland as in other countries, cheap gin was the preferred drink of the poor. It was unscrupulously made and highly toxic. Many were dying as a result of this impure elixir. (It is true that too much bona fide gin is toxic also.). So unto the scene steps a Christian man called Arthur Guinness. His aim was to produce a safer equivalent to the toxic gin at affordable prices, so that the mortality rate would drop. This was a great success. Hence, we Irish love our Guinness; well, not everyone, of course! It is certainly a drink of great national pride. We even have Arthur's Day to honour its inventor.
Hilary wrote: "Wow, Kim!! That is fantastic; Mrs Gamp famed in poetry! So clever and such a great find.Just a wee word in relation to gin: in Ireland as in other countries, cheap gin was the preferred drink o..."
I can never resist looking things up when I have a few extra moments, so I just looked up Arthur Guinness and the thing I'll always remember about him now is that he and his poor, poor wife had 21 children, 10 of which lived to adulthood. I went through labor and delivery twice that was enough, someone else can have my other 19 times. :-}
Oh dear! I didn't know that about Arthur and Mrs Arthur. Absolutely horrendous! Yer a geg, Kim (Belfast expression meaning 'you're a hoot' or 'you're a laugh!'). I'm with you there: gluttons for punishment or what?! Pity that there were no surrogates in those days! :p
Right enough! Poor Mrs McG.! She'd have needed a Guinness or two after all that! (Great for iron content.)
Kim wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Haha, Tristram, 'dispoged' ... Love it. I love the idea of the Mrs Gamp T-Shirts, Peter. I think there'd be a market for them!! I'd buy one and wear it. Thank you, Kim, for your ..."Kim
You are worth the weight of Santa in gold for your constant research delights and finds.
Again ... thank you.
Hilary wrote: "Oh dear! I didn't know that about Arthur and Mrs Arthur. Absolutely horrendous! Yer a geg, Kim (Belfast expression meaning 'you're a hoot' or 'you're a laugh!'). I'm with you there: gluttons f..."
I'd have my own bedroom with a lock on the door I know that. :-}
Peter wrote: "You are worth the weight of Santa in gold...."Ah Santa, that reminds me....
166 days, 14 hours, 14 minutes until Christmas. In Pennsylvania anyway. :-}
Hahaha Kim. A few bricks might not go amiss either; to strengthen the door, of course and not for throwing! (Oh and I meant poor Mrs G!)You're scaring me with your Christmas countdown. I have perpetual nightmares about its being late on Christmas Eve and I haven't remembered to get presents for anyone! I think I'll try to adopt your optimism!
Hilary wrote: "Wow, Kim!! That is fantastic; Mrs Gamp famed in poetry! So clever and such a great find.Just a wee word in relation to gin: in Ireland as in other countries, cheap gin was the preferred drink o..."
And in a somewhat response to Guiness's success, several Quakers got into the chocolate business so that they could sell an affordable quality form of cocoa as an alternative to intoxicating beverages. Such was the origin of Cadbury's, Rowntree, and Fry.
(The Quakers do not have a catechism, but use queries to help members guide their thinking. A query I was brought up with, read and considered by the Meeting every year, was "do you refrain from the use of alcohol and tobacco, and the misuse of drugs?" Asa result of which I have never had the experience of trying Mr. Guiness's brew, though I have drunk many cups of Mr. Cadbury's.
Kim wrote: "Ah Santa, that reminds me...."I assume your plan for next year is pretty much finished? As I recall, you start your actual construction some time in, was it August?
Everyman wrote: "The Quakers do not have a catechism, but use queries to help members guide their thinking."Are there still Quakers? I didn't think there were anymore, I gotta go look.
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "Ah Santa, that reminds me...."I assume your plan for next year is pretty much finished? As I recall, you start your actual construction some time in, was it August?"
I am getting ready, I was out in the front room just today checking light bulbs for the houses and dusting things off. No one ever goes in that room except for at Christmas, so all the Christmas leftover decorations that don't fit in the garage that we still take down get put in that room, I'm not thrilled with it, but that's what we do. Anyway, as I told my music director today when he emailed me the August music calendar the best thing about getting the August calendar was seeing the last day in August, that means summer is soon over and by September Michael's and Kohl's will be putting out their Christmas stuff. :-}
Everyman, that's fascinating about the Quakers. I did not know that there was encouragement to abstain from alcohol etc. I like the chocolate information! I know, that as with red wine etc., a certain amount of chocolate is good for you, particularly dark chocolate.My one experience of a Quaker meeting was when my husband was asked to speak to them about a youth reconciliation campaign in the late '80s. They were lovely people. I know that not all Quaker groups have a religious aspect to them, but they are an admirable organisation from all that I've heard or experienced.
Oh yes, returning to Guinness, it was until recently at least, prescribed by the bottle for anaemic patients on wards (especially the elderly) as a result of its iron content. (Here in Ireland, of course!)
Kim wrote: "Are there still Quakers? I didn't think there were anymore, I gotta go look. "There most definitely are. Very much so.
http://www.pym.org/ (my home Yearly Meeting)
http://www.fgcquaker.org/
http://www.quaker.org.uk/britain-year... (my father's home yearly meeting)
http://www.fwccworld.org/fwccworld/
http://www.quaker.org/
http://fum.org/
Just for starters
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "Are there still Quakers? I didn't think there were anymore, I gotta go look. "There most definitely are. Very much so.
http://www.pym.org/ (my home Yearly Meeting)
http://www.fgcq..."
I love the idea of quietness and peace the Quakers seem to have at their meetings. And in their life in general. I just told my husband yesterday after church I miss the days when church was a peaceful place, now I don't have a moment's peace from the time I walk in the building until I leave. He responded that it seemed peaceful in that time after worship team practice but before the service, that there was music playing in the background and he just sat and listened, I told him that's when I discussed which hymns should be used next with the organist, and the one soprano came and told me why she is leaving the choir. There's no peace and quiet for me anyway. :-}
Oh, I'm reading a book by Margaret Oliphant right now, "Miss Marjoribanks". I read this line last night and thought of you:
"For my part, I am fond of neutral tints," she herself said, when she was questioned on the subject; "anybody who knows me can easily guess my taste. I should have been born a Quaker, you know, I do so like the drabs and grays, and all those soft colours."
Kim wrote: "I love the idea of quietness and peace the Quakers seem to have at their meetings. And in their life in general. I just told my husband yesterday after church I miss the days when church was a peaceful place, now I don't have a moment's peace from the time I walk in the building until I leave."There are a number of Quaker meetings fairly close to you, where you would be welcome to come in to share the quiet. In my experience, the smaller meetings tend to have more silent time; the city meetings and those in college towns tend to have less silence and more speaking.
But if you go to this page
http://www.fgcquaker.org/connect/quak...
you can find nearby meetings.
Everyman wrote: "There are a number of Quaker meetings fairly close to you, where you would be welcome to come in to share the quiet."Reading about the quiet actually inspired me to try a little quiet time this morning after scripture reading. I usually read the bible for about an hour or two every morning, but then I close the book and move right along with the day. Today I kept the reading to about 45 minutes then spent 30 minutes in the quiet with closed eyes just talking and listening to God. I must admit my mind tended to wander, but it was very soothing, I'll keep it up. :-}
I haven't done that for a long time, Kim; well, not in an 'organised' way. By that I mean that I have problems sleeping which force me to pray, listen and contemplate. Almost without fail I am awake for the dawn chorus.We have a friend who is a Buddhist Christian. Yes, I thought it strange at first. He goes to the Buddhist Centre for peace and a chance to meditate. It is Theravada Buddhism which has no deity. He said he found that the Buddhists found it more difficult to understand why he
would go to church as opposed to the Christians who seemed to be more accepting of his choices. (This, I know, would not always be the case). It sounds like the Quakers would be a great option for him.
Hilary wrote: " It sounds like the Quakers would be a great option for him. "There are, or at least were when I was there, several practicing Buddhists in the Seattle University Meeting. They fit in just fine.
I like the sound of that, Everyman. I'm not sure, however, that we are overpopulated with Quakers in Ireland. Must do some research.
Hilary wrote: "I like the sound of that, Everyman. I'm not sure, however, that we are overpopulated with Quakers in Ireland. Must do some research."This might be a good place to start.
http://www.quakers-in-ireland.ie/
My Quaker paternal grandmother was from Ireland, and I met a number of relatives there when I was over, though that was a great many years ago.
Thanks so much, Everyman. I shall look into it.
Kim wrote: "Do you ever stay home? "The better question is do I ever leave home? And the answer is, as seldom as possible. For good reason.
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "Do you ever stay home? "The better question is do I ever leave home? And the answer is, as seldom as possible. For good reason."
You never leave home?? I think you've been everywhere. Remember the walking through Ireland conversation or some such thing? Then there was the Philadelphia one, or the wilderness guide in Maine one. That's just the few that come to mind right now. :-}
Kim wrote: "You never leave home?? I think you've been everywhere. "Well, yeah, but those were all before I retired. Back then I was young and foolish and thought travel was fun.
Not no more.
Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "You never leave home?? I think you've been everywhere. "Well, yeah, but those were all before I retired. Back then I was young and foolish and thought travel was fun.
Not no more."
Don't most people wait until they retire and then travel? Well around here they all go to Florida for 6 months.
Kim wrote: "Don't most people wait until they retire and then travel?"Only those who didn't travel much before they retired. My mother-in-law is a perfect example. Went almost nowhere until she retired, then suddenly went wild traveling -- France, England, China, Romania, Alaska, you name it.
Me, been there, done that, ready for peace and quiet and time for my books.
Everyman wrote: "Me, been there, done that, ready for peace and quiet and time for my books." Just don't forget your trip here to see our decorations in December. Or November for that matter. :-}
once again the setting is Merry Old England, and actually I was very happy about that because the American chapters, to me at least, seem to me rather an excuse for Dickens to have it out with the U.S. than a contribution to the story. Although, I'd agree with Kate and Peter that there seems to be a gradual change in Martin's outlook on life. But, all in all, bitterest satire has hijacked the plot, which is just a sequence of situations that allow Dickens to poke fun (and more) at certain things he disliked about the U.S.
Now, in the three chapters to be discussed here we see how Pecksniff deftly extricates himself from the awkward situation we left him in, and we also see Tom Pinch in quite a new light, and I must say I liked his sense of self-assertion! Mrs. Gamp is also used to introduce a new plot element: the mysterious stranger on his sick-bed, who not only knows John Westlock - maybe this is just because Dickens wanted to have him re-appear again in the story - but who also seems to know something about Jonas, something we are going to learn later on. Last, not least, we meet one of my favourites again - Young Bailey, who seems to have fared extremely well after leaving Todgers's and who exhibits an amusingly patronizing air with regard to the meek Poll Sweedlepipe. Plus we witness poor Merry in her new home.
All this will surely give us something to talk about ;-)