Jane Austen discussion

Sir Thomas is still in Antigua. Miss Bertram is getting ready to marry Mr. Rushworth. The Crawford's show up and chaos ensues. We start to hear more of Fanny's voice coming out as she is growing up.

Chapter 4
Three main things happen in this chapter: Edmund promote Fanny’s happiness by buying a horse for her to ride, Mrs. Norris throws Mr. Rushworth in the way of Maria and the Crawfords enter the neighbourhood.

This “horse affaire” is probably the first example of how difficult life for Edmund is in that family. He has a strict sense of propriety and justice, he is kind, but he always has to deal with a bunch of nonsensical relations (that he is too respectful to disregard). This is clear in the acquaintance with Mr. Rushworth too. He sees from the beginning that he is not the one to gain her sister’s affection (probably he knows her sister very well), but what can he do alone when Mrs. Norris is so opinionated about the matter? For sure, he could have spoke to his sister, but don’t forget he was little more than a boy and a second son after all.

While I have no difficulties in disliking Henry Crawford from the beginning, I have mixed feelings about Mary Crawford. I can’t dislike her entirely, like it happened with Caroline Bingley or Lucy Steel or Mrs. Elton, but I don’t approve of her entirely either. She seems quite snob from the first description (all that worry about the lack of amusement in the country. Shouldn’t she be happy enough to get rid of the Admiral?) and the fact that she is prepared to like Tom Bertram without even knowing him annoys me. However, from the first intercourses with the family, she seems to have at least the appearance of kindness and she is undoubtedly clever.

I seem to recall hating Mary Crawford at some point but that point is not yet. In fact.... I rather like her up to this point. (Not quite done with 6 at the moment though.)

Not as well as I like Fanny of course, but then it's been my experience shy people can be quite interesting. :-)

I wish I could ask how people could be so cruel to a cousin but unfortunately I've seen this and worse. In fact, I had a relatively recent run in with a Mrs. Norris sort myself. How brilliant of Austen to be able to write about people in such a realistic way that it still resonates to this day! :-)

And yes, nothing to like in Henry at all! Nor quite honestly in Mr Rushworth either. :-)

I'm in the middle of ch 5.

One thing that seems a little out of the ordinary so far is how a 16/17 yr old adolescent (Edmund) could take such an interest in a 10 yr old girl--Fanny. He has been exceedingly kind to her to be sure! Have people changed so much? Teenagers and young adults are often very taken up with their own concerns, aren't they? I'm finding it hard to believe a person as young as Edmund could be anything more than "carelessly kind" to Fanny let alone demonstrate the degree of solicitude that he has for Fanny.

I hope my remarks are not to prejudicially negative to young people. I'm just saying that I think that the natural state and hallmark of the time of life and development of one of Edmund's age to be anxious and concerned with things that most nearly concern themselves.

It mind depend on setting. I've seen situations like Edmund and Fanny before in my own family. (In a brotherly way, mind.) Take me for instance, when I was 15ish, for all intents and purposes, my best friend was an 11 year old girl. (I wouldn't likely have admitted that at the time but it was the truth.) While that's not as distant as Edmund at the time it it seemed huge. :-)

In general however, I'd say it is probably rare.

Heh, now that I'm thinking about it a bunch more situations come to mind. A friend of mine had a relationship like that with his first cousin. Separated by 8 years. Again only brotherly but maybe it's not as rare as I think.

You have to remember their time, too, 10 isn't such a young age for them as it is for us. A lot of women were put out in society as early as 12, 13, or 15. They may not have been married, but some were because of their youth. It wasn't pedophilia or hebophilia. It was perfectly natural to see her as a woman. All that aside, I think Edmund felt a moral and natural pull toward her. At least that is what I want to believe, that somehow his soul recognized hers. ;)

*hebephilia

There's another example of this brotherly feeling that later changes in something else in Austen novels: Emma and Mr. Knightley. He was 15 years her senior and despite the difference in age they form a friendship at first and then love.

In Fanny and Edmund's case is different because she went to stay in his own house and was in a subordinate position regarding the family, while Emma was equal to Mr. Knightley in station in life. What I wanted to point out is that it's not so strange or uncommon.
After all, even at 16, would you have left a child despairing without doing nothing?

I am more surprised at the indifference of the rest of the family... They seem so...careless. All of them seem to think "Poor inferior ignorant child! I would like to have time to help you but I have to twiddle my thumb so hard this week... I guess someone else will take care of you"

@Irene
I laughed out loud at the "twiddled my thumb so hard this week" part! Hahaha so very true.

I have read the book many times and I have always tried to sort out my opinion0f Mary. I have finally figured it out. I like her She shows a good heart and kindness all the way through. She just isn't a good candidate. for country life.She had a bad upbringing and is very attuned to the bright and shallow life in London as her friends there are. but basically is a good person I will continue later so as not to spoil As for Sir Thomas please relate to him with consideration of THE EARLY 19 TH CENTURY and his position in other words in context I believe that even people as late as w Churchill were not close to their fathers who saw them after tea for a half an hour if they were home (maybe I am mistaken but that is what I have understood from other English novels and biographies I have read)

Just wrapped up 6. I am remembering why I liked Edmund so much. At this point he's the only member of his family with an ounce of compassion. In fact, I think the remainder of his family is completely devoid of... Pretty much anything good. :-)

Though I do wonder how he is so enamoured with Mary. She's not THAT interesting. :-)

Maybe by comparison to the rural society around Mansfield her city sophistication is attractive? A young man must have someone to desire. And he's so much the protective type that her dicey upbringing and lack of a permanent home would make her interesting to his better nature. I've often felt that JA ought to be more sympathetic to Mary, since her chances of even having a roof over her head are so uncertain, and JA herself experienced this.

I really like how Edmund cares for Fanny even in as simple as making she has a horse of her own to ride. He seems like the only person in the family that genuinely cares about the feelings, needs, and wants of Fanny and I find that truly compassionate.

I'm still debating and trying to figure out how I feel about Mary Crawford. There are some things I don't like about her, but I'll have to keep reading to make my final judgment. :-)

I think we have to also remember that back then, society was far more confined. Males could travel and visit far more than females, but even they were limited to how far you could walk or get a horse to take you (except for ships, of course, which is another reason that Fanny's brothers are bright spots in the novel). So you paid attention to who was in the house or neighborhood with you. (Mrs. Bennet made a big point of bragging to Mr. Darcy that they dined with four and twenty families.)

There might have been a big age difference between Fanny and Edmund, but there was overlap in spirit. And who else was there for him in the house? His father, perhaps, although Sir Thomas often lacked good judgment, but no one else. Certainly not his sisters, his brother, mother or the aunt-from-hell Mrs. Norris.

I retract my statement about Mary not being THAT interesting. She gets rather moreso later on. Which is a great shame for now I'm liking both Fanny and Mary. Though I distinctly remember disliking Mary the last time. Maybe my tastes have changed! :-)

@Abigail Mary has 20,000 pounds I think her and Austen are very different as Austen never had ever 1/4 of that much money if I remember rightly.Also people of Mary's station do marry.She has already said she wants to.There are many people who would snap up a beautiful lively girl with 20,000 pounds to be there wife.

I also find Mary doesn't have strong feelings romantically.Austen says something to that effect when she is comparing Maria and Julia's joy and feelings about Henry and her's about the Mister Bertrams:

The Bertrams' admiration of Mr.Crawford was more rapturous then anything which Miss Crawford habits made her likely to feel.She acknowledged however that the Mr Bertrams were fine young men....

She has barely talked to Tom and feels she would marry him because of his title and house and manners.I like Fanny can not like Mary.

@Andrea It depends on situations like Valshar said and also the time period like Caledonia said.Every person is unique so it does depend on the person also.I was very good friends with one of my cousins when I was teenage who was 7 years younger then myself.Plus Edmund is really shown as a great moral person and helping Fanny and befriending her was kind and what his heart told him to do as a christian and future clergyman.This book has more of a religious feel then any of her other novels and wonder if that is the reason why it is a least favorite of many(not me).

I can't stand Henry Crawford.He would be a player in today's world.He is just playing with the feelings of Maria and Julia and though I have no love lost for them as characters.I just can't stand people like that.He knows he should leave but he is happy and having fun so he doesn't.

Mr.Rushworth I think he is so funny and too stupid for me to really have any strong dislike like I do with Henry.If Lady Bertram had a daughter just like herself in temperament then I think they would suit Mr Rushworth as a wife.

@NicoleD: One great analysis of MP described it as about Edmund's decision to become a clergyman or not.

When you read about some of these characters - at least when I do - it makes me want to raise the inheritance tax!

Jane Austen's characters are so well-drawn that you can imagine them in other circumstances. I agree that HC would be a jerk in any space and time, but I think that his sister Mary, if she had more scope to her life, might turn out differently. It's easy to see her running a business, for example, or being on TV.

How far is everyone in the book? I'm enjoying it but I'm having a little trouble pacing myself.

I'm afraid I'm just at halfway now. Still liking Mary as well. She's just not up for the quiet life of a Vicar's wife I think. (And to some extent I tend to agree with some of her opinions on the matter! I'm starting to think my tastes have significantly changed since my last reading.) But I'll spare further comment for the next topics. :-)

Victoria said, I think that his sister Mary, if she had more scope to her life, might turn out differently. It's easy to see her running a business, for example, or being on TV.

I totally agree: here's a bright woman, with capital, but that capital is not under her control, and the rules of society forbid her using her energies productively. She is condemned by her culture to be an idle ornament of some man. Can we wonder at her cynicism? Yes, she's selfish, and hard-hearted, but I can't help feeling her world made her that way. To me she's more a tragedy of a wasted life than a truly vicious person.

There are some horrible teenagers out there today it’s true, but I still don’t find it at all surprising that a teenage boy could show kindness to a younger girl, especially one who was willing to look up to him and be guided by him. Boys and men are at their worst when there is a group of them, I have always found whether older or younger if you talk to them one on one they are nothing like the impression you might have of them when they are showing off to their friends. (And the same is probably true of girls.) A kind person, whatever their age, will try to help someone in distress, even today.

What really matters in a friendship is whether you can talk to each other… if Edmund had found Fanny to be stupid or opinionated, his interest would probably have waned, but he was able to talk to her, bring her out of herself and direct her towards his own interests with some success. Their ages didn’t matter and he wasn’t thinking of her in terms of anything other than cousin/friend and maybe sister. Also if you think about his siblings, he had no real friends at home himself did he?

As for the Crawfords… at this point (keeping to the thread titles) I have seen nothing in Mr Crawford to make me dislike him. He likes the attention of the ladies but has no serious thoughts of matrimony, though he is happy to let his sisters tease him about it. He accompanies his sister when she needs an escort and runs errands for her when she asks. His manners are good and though his looks are not outstanding his personality carries it off. He has a lot of money and too much time on his hands it’s true, but what is there in that to dislike?

Mary Crawford on the other hand I could never take to, she is wary about whether the company will be good enough for her (even her own sister,) when only her fortune makes her their equal and her own circumstances make it necessary for her to go there. I can understand her dislike of the Admiral but her manner of speaking of him to strangers is not entirely appropriate. Her intention of looking for a husband is cold, calculating and cynical (which is perhaps not a surprise considering how she grew up but it doesn’t endear her to me.) I think her time in town has added to her outlook in a negative way as well.

Having read this before I know there is more to both of them of course.

Going by some of the later comments…. Stephanie, I think we need the next topic :)

About Henry and Mary I have nothing bad to say about them when it comes to them being very close and great brother and sister to each other.In fact that is one of the few things if only thing I respect and like about them.

I agree Lousie I don't like how Mary didn't think that country company would be good enough for her.Her own sister who has been raised a gentlewomen just like her.

( such brilliant conversation going here - can't wait to jump in! Re topics, Stephanie should be posting some more today and then I am going to help out a post some more tomorrow (bare in mind the time differences!) so more topics are coming soon!)