Jane Austen discussion

We learn more about the Mary Crawford. We take a trip to Mr. Rushworth's home. We continue to see Fanny grow into herself and her relationship with Mary Crawford and Edmund.

Chapter 7
This is when I start becoming annoyed both with Fanny and Edmund. Fortunately he seems to heal from his infatuation enough to change his way in a short time, but she…
I understand that Fanny is shy and is subdued to the family because of her station in life but, when I read about how Mary Crawford steals her time for riding, I almost shout “Come on, girl! Teach this arrogant minx a lesson!”. However every time I read MP, Fanny keeps being silent and Mary keeps being odious.

I was a little Grrr about Mary's inconsideration with Fanny's horse and her non apology (Mary's, that is ).

I quite liked Mary and Edmunds exchange about religion and the clergy.

In addition, although Edmund has been showing Mary some attention by visiting to hear her play the harp and teaching her how to ride, he remains the sensible person that he is and does not transform into a besotted fool over MCs attractions.

Reference was made in ch 7 (I think) to some inappropriate comments made by MC about her uncle the admiral. For the life of me, can't recall them. I am at a disadvantage bec I am reading an eBook and it is difficult to go over previously read material and the return to the proper place. Could someone (with a better memory than mine) remind me of MCs comments about her uncle?

In chapter 6, while they talk about Sotherton, Mary says:

"Three years ago, the admiral, my honoured uncle, bought a cottage at Twickenham for us all to spend our summers in; and my aunt and I went down to it quite in raptures; but it being excessively pretty, it was soon found necessary to be improved; and for three months we were all dirt an confusion, without a gravel walk to step on, or a bench fit for use. I would have everything as complete as possible in the country, shrubberies adn flower gardens, and rustic seats innumerable; but it must be all done without my care."
Edmund was sorry to hear Miss Crawford, whom he was much disposed to admire, speak so freely of her uncle. It did not suits his sense of propriety, and he was silenced, till induced by further smiles and liveliness, to put the matter by for the present.

Then later in the same conversation, when the subject was on Fanny's brother William and the navy in general there's this exchange:

"Do you know any thing of my cousin's captain?" said Edmund; "Captain Marshall? You have a large acquaintance in the navy, I conclude?"
"Among Admirals, large enough, but we know very little of the inferior ranks. Post captains, may be very good sort of men, but the do not belong to us. Of various admirals, I could tell you a great deal; of them and their flags, and the gradation of their pay, and their bickerings and jealousies. But in general, I can assure you that they are all passed over, and very ill used. Certainly, my home at my uncle's brought me acquainted with a circle of admirals. Of Rears and Vices, I saw enough. Now, do not be suspecting me of a pun, I entreat".
Edmund again felt grave, and only replied "It is a noble profession".
"Yes, the profession is well enough under two circumstances; if it make the fortune, and there be discretion in spending it. But, in short, it is not a favourite profession of mine. It has never worn an amiable form to me.

I think these two are the comments made by Mary and considerate inappropriate by Edmund, because they seem ungrateful. As he said later, she can think what she wants about the Admiral, but she shouldn't speak about him in such a way in public.

Chapter 9
I really like the way Jane Austen uses the day spent at Sotherton to describe the dynamics in the group of young people: the clear interest Maria has in Mr. Crawford, the jealousy between Maria and Julia, the situation of silly Mr. Rushworth (who should probably had better cut the engagement after such a poor behaviour of his beloved), and the increasing mutual interest between Mary and Edmund, who even forgets about Fanny.

In this chapter more than ever, Fanny seems the only person of sound mind, the only tower of strength in a complete mess.
I don't know if my interpretation is correct, but I like to see a little uncaring attitude in her sitting on that bench at Sotherton. In the category: "why should I go out of my way to prevent you doing something stupid or improper? Go, do what you want, I won't be bothered too much".

Thanks Irene!

I thought so little of the first comments about the cottage that I didn't notice the possible "impropriety." I guess that my sensitivity to the mores and expectations of polite behavior was not acute enough.

The other comments about the Navy reflected a poor opinion of her uncle in a seemingly oblique fashion. I didn't notice this either when I read it.

I think I spoke to soon about Edmond not being in a foolishly besotted state over Mary. I don't think that Edmond is foolish, but the more that the two of them converse, she reveals to him an unflattering tone of her mind.

RE: "Of Rears and Vices, I saw enough. Now, do not be suspecting me of a pun, I entreat."

That line has always seemed so outrageous to me that it's hard for me to imagine Edmund having any respect for Mary whatsoever after hearing it. Even today, it would be a bit risqué. I guess hormones really do trump brain cells at Edmund's young age!

And Irene, great comment about chap. 9! It is wonderful how JA uses the scene of the principal characters "wandering in the wilderness" to reveal so much about everyone.

@Abigail

In addition to Edmunds "hormones," Mary seems to be the only young lady around whom is not a relative. Tom as the heir has more freedom of mobility that could put him in the way of young ladies should he wish for their society. Edmund seems to be stuck in his home neighborhood and cannot "roam" for more agreeable society as does his brother.

Irene wrote: "Chapter 7
This is when I start becoming annoyed both with Fanny and Edmund. Fortunately he seems to heal from his infatuation enough to change his way in a short time, but she…
I understand that F..."

I feel the same way! It has been so difficult for me to read this book and watch Fanny remain so silent when she isn't treated fairly or when she's treated poorly. Yes her upbringing has a lot to do with it, but I too find my self shouting "Come on!! Say something!"

The trip to Mr. Rushworth's home really gave me insight to Maria and Julia and their personalities. I somewhat felt sorry for Mr. Rushworth when he was so openly abandoned by Maria for Mr. Crawford. And it still amazes me how openly Mr. Crawford is willing to accept the affection and attention from both sisters.

Edmund feels just as he should about Mary riding for fun and Fanny for her health and I was happy to see when he did forgot it and after the rose garden headache he was himself and put the blame on himself for not thing of her and more about Mary.Mary doesn't even say sorry for riding Fanny's horse so long.Edmund has had his head turned and so have Julia and Maria by Henry.You also think that Edmund would know Fanny by now and that is he asks for the horse she will say she doesn't want it because it's him.

Poor(not really)Mary she has just found out the man she loves wants to be clergyman.I profession she hates and mocks.

@Ashley I agree with what you said about Henry willing to accept openly affection from both girls.What he and Maria whisper about at the alter is horrialbe even for today.What is surprising me no one is seeing how much him and Maria are together and her affection for him.I feel like everyone in the novel should be seeing it.I keep thinking are you all blind?

I feel so bad for Fanny being beat down as she is by everyone.I just think she is to scared and timid to speak up for herself and I don't see myself shouting speak up.I didn't throw any of my rereads and I think this is my 5th.

Irene wrote: "Chapter 9
I really like the way Jane Austen uses the day spent at Sotherton to describe the dynamics in the group of young people: the clear interest Maria has in Mr. Crawford, the jealousy between..."


I think she does what she had to help the situation but thinks to little of her own judgement and position to do anything really.

While I might not usually defend Mary Crawford, at the point when she borrows Fanny’s horse and keeps her waiting she doesn’t know how impossible it is for Fanny to stand up for herself. Given her own situation and the way the Miss Bertrums behave she probably thought that if anything, Fanny would take her cousin to task over it, but by then she would have had what she wanted. Selfish, but not mean spirited or neglectful, unlike Fanny’s cousins who must all have known the true state of affairs but were unwilling to sacrifice their own pleasure. At one point it does say that Julia at least is conscious of her own behaviour even though she doesn’t check it, and Edmund of course feels guilty whenever he is made aware of his neglect.

I don’t get frustrated with Fanny because there is nothing she could have said to Mary without making herself look bad and the repercussions with her family would not have been worth it. She could have had a quiet word with Edmund later but of course she won’t do that because she is genuinely grateful for his friendship. Don’t forget that it is Edmund’s horse anyway, Fanny owns nothing and has no right to make demands, she is conscious of the fact that he didn’t have to ask her at all before he leant the horse to Mary, and the rest of her family makes sure she never forgets her position.

Edmund’s constantly putting aside all the faults he sees in Mary is frustrating, but she’s very pretty, lively and good humoured and seems to like him, of course he’s drawn to her. He chooses to believe she isn’t serious about his chosen profession, though his beliefs are never swayed by her.

Rather ironically, and perhaps sadly, I think Mary Crawford was ultimately proved correct. While in those days a parish clergyman could be all the use that Edmund ascribes to them, city morals seem to have won out today. There are, I think, little pockets that hold out, but Edmund would be grieved at how little influence he could have today.

Andrea please buy the book It is so much richer when you can go back and reread penguin has cheap paperbacks I have baught in cloth bound collecters
library 3for 2 when I visited England most of JA works and it wasnot expensive

@Mrs.

I'll take your advice. This most likely will not be the last time that I read this book. I tend to reread books that I really love!

As for what Mary says about rears and vices, Jane Austen may be asking the readers to sympathize with Fanny and Edmund ... but the line she gave to Mary is hilarious. And Austen is the one who thought it up, or at least who approved of it enough to write it down.