Jane Austen discussion

We are still at Sotherton. Sir Thomas is sending word he will be home in November and planning begins for the wedding. Mr. Tom Bertram arrives home.

Maria already feels trapped and she hasn't even married Mr.Rushworth get.Henry is laying it on thick that he wants Maria and why isn't everyone seeing this?Why only Fanny?If Edmund wasn't so in love with Mary I think he might see it.At least Mr.Rushworth is finally seeing that Maria seems to like Henry better then him.Henry is so selfish playing with others feelings like this.

I feel that Julia has the better head of the two sisters.She at least is telling herself she should be distrustful of Henry when comes and wishes he wouldn't come back.I have been seeing this little hints throw the book that Julia has the better character.Like when she thought she should offer to stay at home and not Edmund for the Sotherton party but didn't speak on it and left the room.

Am I the only one who will forever wonder what Edmund and Mary talked about when not with Fanny?

@Nicole D.
I agree with you, Julia is has the best character of the two sisters. Probably she is just mislead by Maria's example, Mrs. Norris prais without refrain and Lady Bertram indifference.

Hadn't been so besotted with Mary, Edmund would have probably seen the impropriety of her sister Maria and probably her unhappiness too. Maria felt trapped and I felt trapped with her, and I can't help but blame Mrs. Norris for all of this, because she was the promoter of the match.

Near as I can tell, aside from Mary the only person with any brains is Fanny. Well, Edmund would have some if he wasn't stuck on Mary. :-)

I'm really finding it quite surprising that I'm liking Mary so much. I must be a lot more cynical than when I last read through this. She's even making good serious sense. :-D

Perhaps later on she'll fall off her pedestal. I'm apparently just as bad as Edmund in this regard! ;-)

Valshar wrote:

I'm really finding it quite surprising that I'm liking Mary..."

Mary hasn't really done much to make me dislike her too much except to make terrible comments to Edmund about his chosen profession (clergy). I think that her remarks are a little cruel. Edmund as a younger son has fewer options. Mary as a young woman who has some claims of gentility, should know these things about younger sons. Her remarks were not kind. In addition, I think that she is making generalizations about the clergy based on her interpretation of what she has observed about her brother in Law, Dr. Grant while living as a guest in his home. Mary seem to be an ingrate where her uncle is concerned, now she seems to be one where her brother in law is concerned.

Mary Crawford is ungrateful and selfish... she likes Edmund, but would like to change him and turn him in someone more similar to her brother. Clearly she doesn't like him enough to accept him as he is and support him in his choice.

Aside from the manners aspect, I actually don't mind her comments on her uncle. Especially since it was clear her uncle had little character. With mistresses coming in and leaving at all times it's no wonder she had a poor view of him. (I'd have a few nastier comments to say about that than she did.) :-)

I do agree with Fanny that she shouldn't go around saying negative things about him in public though.

As for the clergy comments, I think that's why I didn't like Mary the last time. Only now... (view spoiler)[I was a lot younger during my last read. Today, the idea of being in the clergy fills me with dread for Edmund. I find at this point in my life I apparently agree with many of Mary's comments as well. I found myself somewhat agreeing when she said: "I must look down upon anything contented with obscurity when it might rise to distinction." (hide spoiler)]

It's true, Mary does want to change Edmund. This time I'm not taking that as she's selfish (I did previously) but rather that she and Edmund most certainly do not belong together. She does not belong in the country and Edmund is the wrong person for her. She just doesn't see this yet. A shame I can't pop into the story, take Mary off to some decent climate (which she would complain about incessantly), then Edmund and Fanny can have their happily ever after earlier. Everybody wins! :-D :-D

It would appear I have indeed become quite a bit more cynical than the last time I read this. Mary has gone from being way too dour to someone I find very interesting. I'm not sure that says anything positive about me... ;-)

I'm hoping at some point in the story Mary does something bad enough that I no longer have her on the same pedestal that Edmund does... We're really pathetic, Edmund and I! :-D

Mr Crawford is definitely beginning to show his true colours, but it shows the Miss Bertrams up just as badly... he couldn’t get away with it if they didn’t play along. I agree Nicole, that Julia has the better character of the two though.

However bad Maria’s conduct is in encouraging Mr Crawford, it does seem that she must have genuine feelings for him as his net worth and consequence is less than Mr Rushworth’s… perhaps if he had feelings for her she would have made a more honourable choice and let Rushworth go.

Mary Crawford speaks just as badly of Mr Grant as of her uncle but Edmund seems to find this less objectionable. One point in her favour though is that she seems to recognise Fanny’s merit better than most members of her family, I like her comment “I fancy Miss Price has been more used to deserve praise than to hear it.”

If only Fanny had a little more confidence in her own opinions, if she could have convinced Edmund that more was going on with Maria and Crawford it might have saved a lot of trouble later.

@Nicole - ‘Am I the only one who will forever wonder what Edmund and Mary talked about when not with Fanny?’ I don’t think it can have been anything very important but it would be interesting to know whether they actually agreed on anything other than the harp and riding.

@Irene - I agree, Mrs Norris has a lot to answer for, but so does Lady Bertram for allowing her so much influence over her daughters while not exerting any of her own.

@Valshar – “It's true, Mary does want to change Edmund. This time I'm not taking that as she's selfish (I did previously) but rather that she and Edmund most certainly do not belong together.” I agree it’s not entirely selfish in that she believes what she is saying, that it would be better for him. It also says something about her that when she’d actually got to know them she chose Edmund over Tom despite their situations.

About Mary trying to Change Edmund
You know Mary trying to change Edmund to me makes me start to think that she never really loved him as much as she thought.I mean if you love someone do you really want to change them into what you want them to be.He isn't a man of the town and that is why I think she loves him but she wants him to be a man of the town.

@Irene Mrs.Norris is a witch and a huge problem.Maria and Tom are always praised to the stars by her and I think Maria is worse for it like you.

Good point, yes she probably wouldn't be happy with the result if she succeeded.

I think Mary preferred Edmund to TOm because she wanted a stable and loving marriage and she realized that the London types of which Tom took after were just married for show and not real companionship.She bacsically was looking for a real life but sadly did not have the kind of upbringing that would give her the tools for itNow the Bertram sisters and Tom were given better tools so why did they come out so crass?

@Mrs

I think that there is some truth in what you say about Mary. I keep trying to figure out why she is drawn to Edmund and I think that you have hit upon it. She wants a real husband not a "society" match.

@Mrs
I think Mrs.Norris had a lot to do with Maria and Julia being who they are.Lady Bertram never troubled herself with her children and Mrs.Norris was more a mother to them then Lady Bertram.She took them to balls and always told them how wonderful they were.Plus Maria and Julia didn't like there father.He was too serious and strict for them and they wanted freedom from him.

@Nicole D.

I think that you may be right. That awful Mrs Norris took more of an interest in these girls than their own mother ever did and has unfortunately had an influence on them. What a horrible woman Mrs Norris is!

I agree with a lot of things being said about Mary Crawford. I see her decision in choosing Edmund over Tom but how can you truly love someone if you can't even accept their profession. Her desire to change him irks me. Haha! And I find her comments to be rather cruel but for some reason (this is my first time reading the novel) I think that there may be more to Mary than meets the eye.

Ashley, I agree that Mary's comments were cruel, especially since a son who was not the heir had fewer options in class and rank obsessed England at that time.

I must ask you young participants something not to do with the book but relating to Internet communication Several people have asked to be my Friend and I approved but have no idea how to contact them thru good reads and what this means

If you go into your profile you should see a list of your friends with a link to their profiles. You can send a message from there, compare your books or recommend books.

On each book page it usually tells you whether your friends have read/reviewed that book as well, and any other options you have.

While we've gone off on nuts/bolts of how GR works, I have a question/problem that maybe someone here can advise:

I have a DNF shelf (that's "did not finish"). My problem is that I cannot move these books off of the exclusive shelf altogether. Is it possible to move a book off of the exclusive shelves without deleting them altogether?

How do I enter my profile ?Ilooked but could not find it

It's the square at the top right hand corner of the menu that, as you have not yet added a picture, should look like someone reading a book?

You should also be able to click on your name at the top of your posts.

https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/7...

Mrs,

You have some profile info about yourself entered. Of course you can add to it or change it.

Irene wrote: "Mary Crawford is ungrateful and selfish... she likes Edmund, but would like to change him and turn him in someone more similar to her brother. Clearly she doesn't like him enough to accept him as h..."

In that view, Edmund would be pretty much the same. He also can't accept Mary as she is and, he imagines a "Mary" of his liking and tries to mould the original to his liking. I think that here we can already see that this is nothing but infatuation and not real love.

I think Mary is torn btwn wanting companionship in marriage and wanting a husband that is a stepping stone to an elevated social position in "society." I think Mary was on the right track when she realized that Tom was a zero as a potential husband ( and he doesn't seem interested in settling down ).

In Edmunds case, I don't think that he has much contact with "appropriate" young ladies in his neighborhood. It seems as if there aren't any young ladies in his neighborhood.

The oOwen sisters? I was going to post my thoughts on potential mates or rather the lack of them for several of our JA heroines/ Fanny who goes no where,Emma who also goes no where and ditto for Anne who met only Capt Benwick and Charles during those 8years.And I still think Charlotteb made the right decicion for her sad case. she knew how to handle her marriage and had a home and children think what her alternative in her brothers house would have been At least JA had a warm and happy home with her M0ther sister and friend most spinsters did not have such options as Emma points out only wealthy ones had a life