Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

WE sure got a lot of members (1167 at the moment). Yet it's a good week if 5 of them make a comment.

Is this place simply too negative? Too Fundamental or Liberal or Evangelical or Charismatic or Cultish or too many talking donkeys without the aid of the Holy Spirit?

Should we try a new direction? Or is this a great place where atheists and Muslims can sit back and observe how pathetic and muddled Jesus' followers really are?

Or maybe we should actually read and discuss some theology and philosophy? Nah.

I come here for fellowship, but far too often, find too many arguments. Perhaps we should concentrate on what unites us instead of what divides us.

I also think that non-Christians shouldn't participate in a "Christian"
forum. Those who want to argue can do so, but it must for that purpose.

We could unite... but in general: theology and philosophy divide.

It is fun to chat about things that aren't eternally damning: Cool cars, Music, Movies, Geography... Sports. Those are worth fighting over too I guess.

Rod - it might help if you and the moderator wouldn't insist on a literal translation of Scripture for being a believer. This is contradictory to Jesus' teachings and anathema to 95% of Christians. Coming to Jesus is easy in his own words, with a light yoke. Insisting on unnecessary restrictions is just a resurrection of Pharissee methodology.

LOL, Robert.

Literal translations has nothing to do with being a Pharisee. Jesus quoted the OT many times, and I've yet to see you respond to that. Also, where do you get the "95% of Christians" number?

Wade - did Jesus recount the making of the Heavens and the Earth part? Probably he winces at that shot in the dark. 95% of Christians regard some of the Old Testament as old wive's tales as they have inherited a measure of common sense. Too bad you didn't receive your dollop!

Your rudeness amazes me, Robert. You should hang with the atheists who are also very good at being rude to others.

I'm not sure that simply a literal translation of God's Words (the non- metaphorical parts anyway) are the reason for a lack of discussion and involvement.

Would people really chat more if Christianity was applauded as endlessly ambiguous? Probably not. But at least we could get Mormons, Hindus, cults, new age Spiritists, and liberals all drinking from the same cup. Sadly, much of Jesus' words would be considered blasphemous or intolerable.

Robert wrote: "Rod - it might help if you and the moderator wouldn't insist on a literal translation of Scripture for being a believer. This is contradictory to Jesus' teachings and anathema to 95% of Christians...."

My response: What a LIE! Please QUOTE Jesus EVER discrediting ANY of the Bible.

Robert wrote: "Wade - did Jesus recount the making of the Heavens and the Earth part? Probably he winces at that shot in the dark. 95% of Christians regard some of the Old Testament as old wive's tales as they ha..."

Jesus said quote: Mark 10:6 - "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."

My response: The SIXTH literal day would be the beginning of the creation !

SIX trillion years would NOT!

Rod, I agree with what you are saying. I think that maybe it would be helpful in those active in the group put together a certain set of beliefs that we can agree on. I don't want to make this group a strict and stringent group expelling outsiders, however I have noticed arguments many over simple and easy to follow scriptural points. Maybe we should put a few together about what we believe about Scripture and Christ, and if people really argue about those simple set of precepts maybe they should reconsider their membership in the group. Because honestly as a follower of Christ I do love this group, however you are right Rod, even now arguments are springing up about simple truths.

I think this group is a great place to discuss and argue over the simple truths of Christianity. I seldom learn anything new here - but it's a fun place to test my apologetics.

Some folks don't believe Jesus even existed - and some others think they ARE Jesus. There really is no unity among the masses---- but the Saints should all be heading in the same direction.

Unity is NOT the goal... Spiritual Maturity IS!

Ephesians 4:3 - "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Ephesians 4:13 - "Till we all come in the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the Son of God , unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ :"
_________________________

Anyone can have unity with anyone... as long as one or both are willing to COMPROMISE enough.

Spiritual maturity is the goal and unity is the result.
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Here is a Bible study that I did on this topic...

"Christian Unity"

All believers want "unity", but what does the Bible have to say about "unity"?

Brief PDF file (free download)
http://www.christ-like.net/sitebuilde...

YouTube video of this study
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpgw_...

Wade - you call me rude because I'm not on the literal bandwagon and oppose it strenuously because I feel it a dangerous fanatical outlook given new scientific and historical unearthings. But, people who are with you say rude things to me all the time. You might gain more traction if you engaged in less selective outrage!

Robert wrote: "Wade - you call me rude because I'm not on the literal bandwagon and oppose it strenuously because I feel it a dangerous fanatical outlook given new scientific and historical unearthings. But, peop..."

You oppose TRUTH... TRUTH that Jesus TAUGHT and EMBRACED...

...because you consider your intellect SUPERIOR to CHRISTS!

Robert - let Wade respond for himself. I realize all you Fundamentalists are monolithic, but I hope one doesn't really speak for all. Sorry, probably wishful thinking on my part, but I'm hoping some part of an individual remains even after they've thrown their lot in with a cult.

Robert wrote: "Robert - let Wade respond for himself. I realize all you Fundamentalists are monolithic, but I hope one doesn't really speak for all. Sorry, probably wishful thinking on my part, but I'm hoping som..."

You oppose TRUTH... TRUTH that Jesus TAUGHT and EMBRACED...

...because you consider your intellect SUPERIOR to CHRISTS!

I would love to participate in a discussion or a debate in this group, but I feel like the atmosphere here is one that if I disagree with another Christian, out come the theological pitchforks and harsh, judgmental attitudes, all under the pretense of "standing for God's truth". Notice, I didn't say "judgmental" beliefs or doctrines; I have no problem talking with people who disagree with me, no matter how off point or heretical they seem. And I don't have a problem with people who seem more orthodox telling me I'm wrong and showing me how. I'm talking about attitudes, a presumption of people motives, and insults. I feel like I would be fighting Pharisees rather than having honest and insightful conversations with gracious believers. It's just really discouraging and that's why I don't want to participate.

Want proof? I think some future responses to this comment I've just typed will be enough. Wait for it....

Thanks Essy. Indeed - you said it all.

Personally I'd love to tackle these topics with a sense of humor. But the problem is obvious (to some of us)

Essy - well then, why don't you set the tone and see if others will follow. I DO have a problem with unbending orthodoxy, and I DO question motives when it seems applicable. Show us where we've all gone astray and I'll try to rachet down my rhetoric if others will do the same.

Robert wrote: "Essy - well then, why don't you set the tone and see if others will follow. I DO have a problem with unbending orthodoxy, and I DO question motives when it seems applicable. Show us where we've all..."

My response: Your problem is with God and His Word, the Bible.

You desire to CREATE your own FALSE Jesus and worship Him the way YOU WANT.

Robert wrote: "Show us where we've all gone astray and I'll try to rachet down my rhetoric if others will do the same..."

For me, I WILL NOT EVER reject the Bible as God's Word. (I presume that is what you mean by "racheting down the rhetoric".)

At this point i'm pretty sure we should REMOVE the "Christian" part of the groups title.

"...Theological Philosophical Book Club."

|And remove the Philosophical part.
And remove the Book part.
Are we even a Club?

Maybe we should just call it "Theological Mud."?

Robert wrote: "Essy - well then, why don't you set the tone and see if others will follow. I DO have a problem with unbending orthodoxy, and I DO question motives when it seems applicable. Show us where we've all..."

Perhaps I will and see how it goes; but if there isn't any improvement, I won't waste my time.

We can do better in how we speak to each other, guys.

Perhaps we can speak more Biblically to and about each other...

Galatians 5:12 - "I wish that those who are troubling you [by teaching that circumcision is necessary for salvation] would even [go all the way and] castrate themselves !"

God takes false doctrine very seriously... it is sad that His people apparently do not.

Some of us can Essy. It would be great to have you share your thoughts on some of these issues.

Agree with the other members so far. Would love to voice my opinions openly without being called a false prophet or the anti-Christ by the moderator and other fundamentalists.

Thanks Ben - that does seem to be the main problem here.

If you CANNOT contend for the faith with SCRIPTURE... well what does that say about the conversations you desire?

A quick look through the posts so far, and it appears as though ONLY ONE person has QUOTED any Bible verses. (Perhaps the low regard for Scripture is the problem.)

Robert "Cough, Ahem!" are you starting to get the picture yet? Everyone is complaining about YOU.

You are your own fundamentalist Bully. Sorry buddy, it had to be said. Few are chatting here because of you. Basically there's no mission field here - you are chasing everyone off with your own personal agenda.
This is just a place to chat and explore. RELAX. You certainly aren't winning any souls. Most people don't even want to talk to you. Relax and maybe make a friend.

Quote scripture if you like, maybe even paraphrase scripture (even though you seem to think that's a sin - i know, I've tried it with you.) Or simply talk about Christian theology and philosophy. Let go of all your demands. This isn't your playground.

Rod, I would love to chat more with my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I too find the tone very disturbing most times. I can understand disagreement with certain interpretations of scripture, but many times those with different interpretations are attacked, which has led to personal assaults which I find very un-Christlike.

Also, there is no baseline of who is allowed to comment, which I think leads to a degrading discussion. Some who comment don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, and rather than agreeing to disagree on that, the conversion devolves and becomes personalized. Rather than debate that topic in each and every every thread, perhaps a separate discussion thread can be set up for that purpose, and those who wish to discuss or argue their position or points of view can do it there?

Sounds great. We've tried that. we can try it again. We need more fun threads indeed.

Rod wrote: "You are your own fundamentalist Bully. Sorry buddy, it had to be said. Few are chatting here because of you...."

My response: You are the moderator of another group... why isn't anyone chatting in your group?

Not MY group. It just got dropped in my lap. I try to help out both by inspiring people to share.

Rod wrote: "Not MY group. It just got dropped in my lap. I try to help out both by inspiring people to share."

You assume that the lack of chatting is my fault, so why is no one chatting in the group you help moderate?

(The group you help moderate is FOUR times the size of this one. Shouldn't there be LOTS of "chatting" in that large a group?)

People are generally chatting. And nobody is complaining about The Bully at the moment.

Rod wrote: "People are generally chatting. And nobody is complaining about The Bully at the moment."

My response: NOT TRUE. You have one person who posts daily in that group with very little other interactions.

Rod wrote: "People are generally chatting. And nobody is complaining about The Bully at the moment."

Most likely no one is complaining (in the few discussions there are) because no one is challenging the heretics. Mickey for example. He thinks he is Elijah... and there is little or no correction offered...

So why would anyone complain?

Although, that is not true either. There is another guy who has complained vehemently about you.

People should complain about me: my humor and insights are out of control. But they are honest and exploratory - if that offends them: then that's kind of funny.

Robert nobody complains because you're a heretic or insane.... but because you're a rude bully. Show us all some Love and inquisitiveness. Learn to lovingly chat with people you disagree with. You just run around attacking people with your specific brand of biblical interpretation. (Which is very shallow.)

Please learn to make some friends in your ministry. Love your enemies even.

Rod wrote: "People should complain about me: my humor and insights are out of control. But they are honest and exploratory - if that offends them: then that's kind of funny."

They do. I had one guy complain to me about you... as if I could do anything about it!

Rod wrote: "Robert nobody complains because you're a heretic or insane.... but because you're a rude bully. Show us all some Love and inquisitiveness. Learn to lovingly chat with people you disagree with. You ..."

My response: All of your rhetoric boils down to "Robert learn to COMPROMISE"...

...sorry, that is NOT happening.

Rod wrote: "You just run around attacking people with your specific brand of biblical interpretation. (Which is very shallow.)..."

I directly quote the Bible... and you call that "VERY SHALLOW

Herein lies the problem. You think it "shallow" to believe EXACTLY what God says... without ADDING one's opinions (or opinions of others who say what one likes)...

2 Timothy 4:3 - "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

Mattia wrote: "Rod, clear and complete. But when one (Robert) has no ears to hear you, it is vain..."

Thanks for your OPINION!

At this point, there are more than 40 comments on this thread...
...ONLY ONE person has included Scripture!

Are the others to be taken seriously? In a Christian group?

Mattia wrote: "To laugh or to cry?"

"Christians" who discuss doctrine and theology without the Word of God is DEFINITELY NOT a laughing matter...

Rod wrote: "People should complain about me: my humor and insights are out of control. But they are honest and exploratory - if that offends them: then that's kind of funny."

I think you're pretty good about being open to ideas different from your own (I respect you for that), but there have been times where (and maybe you don't realize this) I've read your comments and your sarcasm came across as kind of rude. Not trying to attack you; just being honest about what I've noticed (I know everyone here, including me, can improve in this area).

Yes, I cross the line sometimes. Occasionally for a good reason (I assume). Depends on the previous posts.

I should behave. Thanks.

Robert wrote: "Rod wrote: "You just run around attacking people with your specific brand of biblical interpretation. (Which is very shallow.)..."

I directly quote the Bible... and you call that "VERY SHALLOW

He..."

Robert,

I'm glad you want to stand for Scripture. Perhaps to some degree, your motives are sincere, and your problem is just a bad execution of words. But I agree with others, that you talk very rudely to people in this group and often come across as proud and judgmental. There are at least two or three people within this group who have pointed this out to you, and according to Matthew 18:16, as a Christian, you need be open to the fact that you're wrong on this one. Not trying to be mean, but people aren't going to fudge on this and ignore it. It's festered too long.

Also, please remember that just because people don't directly quote from Scripture in their comments, that doesn't mean they can't think of specific verses or that they don't have Scripture and God's will backing them up when they argue for a theological position. Don't hold a superior tone in your words and assume that you're the only one who's trying to follow God when arguing for beliefs.

I'm not saying this to bash you, but to help you out. I used to act just like you in this way and, not only did it not please God, but it damaged my personal relationships I had with other Christians because of it; so I know. Everything I've said, however firm, is meant only in kindness. Please don't take it the wrong way.

Essy wrote: "There are at least two or three people within this group who have pointed this out to you, and according to Matthew 18:16, as a Christian, you need be open to the fact that you're wrong on this one..."

My response: Matthew 18 is in the context of "sinning against a brother". What sin against you am I guilty of?

Why did you NOT bring it to me privately?

Why did you NOT bring it next in the presence of one or two witnesses?
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Also, do you think there might have been two or three witnesses of what many would consider to be "sin" in this case?

John 2:15 - "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;"
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Sorry, I am NOT convinced that standing up for and upon the Word of God... is sin.