Jane Austen discussion

Fanny is being asked to join in the acting and is unhappy about it and is trying to resist. Edmund is finally drawn into the play as well so that Mary does not act with a stranger. Fanny is left to help read lines and make costumes.

Chapter 17
Edmund is by far my favourite character in the whole novel, even if he has his faults. And probably I like him because I can relate to his struggles. In every group or company I had the chance to be, I’ve always been the wise one, the one that was expected to be responsible and reliable, the one that was expected to hold in check all the others. So I was always the one worried about what was right, while the others had fun.
In this chapter Edmund is more or less in the same predicament. His younger sisters, his friends and even his older brother and aunt are all engrossed in this foolish acting plan (I find it foolish even for our time, let alone for Regency period when propriety was a diktat and actor an actress were considered only a little better than prostitutes) while Edmund has to behave like the head of the household.
In the end he acts exactly as I did a few times (except for regret it after a while): he gives up and decide to join the fun and, for a change, do something foolish as anyone else. It’s a wrong choice, but I can’t disapprove him too much for this, because I understand.

Chapter 18
For the first time in the whole novel I appreciate Fanny, because I see her being steadfast in her position about the "theatre affair". For the first time she doesn’t dismiss her own judgment to conform to other’s (and with other I mean Edmund's).

Moreover in this chapter she almost acknowledge to be in love with Edmund, when she says she’s jealous of Mary Crawford. Not that the reader needed such a declaration, but I find it quite different from other Jane Austen’s novels, where the heroine needs almost the whole novel to understand she is in love with the hero.

Irene writes, I find it quite different from other Jane Austen novels, where the heroine needs almost the whole novel to understand she is in love with the hero.

There's kind of an interesting parallel/contrast to Edward Ferrars from Sense and Sensibility here, because for a long time Eleanor thinks he's in love with Lucy and her love is unrequited, while all the time Edward is true to her, and the reader suspects as much. [[Skating close to a spoiler here!!]] Here Edmund spends a lot of the novel genuinely being not in love with Fanny.

I'm always in awe of how Fanny, powerless and disrespected as she is, has the strength remain true to herself. There's a lot of power in her humble dignity.

I particularly started liking Mary at the point where she intervenes for Fanny. She may be cynical (which I'm apparently liking now), and she pushes the bounds of manners by talking dirt about some people (even if I agree with her assessment in both cases) but she also has some kindness. Not to mention that after initially aiming for Tom she rather quickly switched to Edmund. Good taste it seems. A shame they just aren't suited as a couple. :-)

Itoo think Mary Has a lot of good traits she just is not suited for a country clergydoes mans wife Too bad that Fanny jealousy does not let her be friends with her Fanny has neverhad a real girlfriend her cousins have always been awfull and she never goes anywhere

I'm having a hard time at disliking Mary too... She has many good traits, she is smart and witty in her way. What I don't like are her principles, so maybe it's not entirely her fault...

I think with a little nudging Mary's principles wouldn't be all that bad. (At least up to this point, we'll see if I change my mind later. And.. that sort of means I'd be trying to change her like she tries with Edmund. Oops.) She's a little cynical (which I now seem to find attractive) and she does seem to have good taste even if she takes a bit to get there. And... she's funny. Apparently this is all I require to like a character these days! :-D

If it was up to me (and it's not) I would have liked to have seen the 3 of them friends. Particularly Fanny and Mary. I think they both would do well as friends. Where one is deficient the other would help. :-)

Meanwhile I STILL just want someone to run up and hug Fanny. Aside from Edmund she has no friends at all and most people she knows continually put her down. Poor thing.

In sum, Mary is neither all good nor all bad.

Boy, is this so called "play" very silly.

@Andrea

Isn't it? All that fuss over something so ridiculous. And of course it was an excuse to put down Fanny several times. Le sigh. Horrid, horrid people! :-)

@Mrs I think it also Fanny sees something wrong in Mary morally.

When I first read this I was a little surprised Edmund caved even with Mary.What makes me so upset is that Maria and Tom are so happy they finally got him to do something he thinks is wrong.

Mary and Mrs.Grant talk and Mary finally says something about the triangle that is Maria/Julia/Henry.Mrs.Grant is more worried for Henry then the sisters.She shouldn't be.With this speech talking about Mr.Rushworth Mary seems angery that Edmund isn't in Mr.Rushworth's place as money and land go.Did anyone else see that in the speech?Mary seems to be the only one other then Fanny that knows Maria and Julia are both in love with Henry.

Julia is suffering and I would have liked her better if she had turned to Fanny for friendship.But then she had been told by Mrs.Norris that Fanny is nothing for years and so doesn't think to confide in her.

I think Henry Crawford is the best actor because his whole life is an act.You never see the true Henry.Just his charm.

I really felt for Fanny having to watch Mary and Edmund act that scene.It must have been so heartbreaking for her.

I thought it was funny how most of the players had complaints about one another's acting ability and took them all to Fanny. Their complaints against each other were funny :-D !

@Irene – I sympathise, I too am often the one who sees how stupid others are being, with little or no power to curb them. If I am in the right mood and amongst people I trust, I would join in… I would act now as there is really no harm, but back then I hope I would have stood firm if I felt it to be wrong. I have certainly stuck to my refusals when I do not want to participate in something.

Edmund’s biggest mistake in having compassion for Mary’s feelings is, to my way of thinking, the fact that if she truly judged it to be wrong she should have refused to do it and joined with him and Fanny. If she had pulled back because it was going too far, Maria would have been forced to make a push to change things at the very least. It seems instead they were all trying to provoke Edmund into giving up his principles and as they then decide that he has done so out of jealously, it seems deliberate. I am suspicious of Mary’s mentioning her discomfort to Fanny and in his hearing, it seemed more like she was trying to gain their support than confiding her fears.

I think the reason we don’t dislike Mary is that in general her faults would not even be considered faults these days. Manners and morals have moved on to such a point where if we met her today, we probably would not even notice. It is the setting and the comparison with the others that makes us think about these things.

Having finally read the play, I find myself wondering what would have happened if Edmund had reached Fanny before Mary Crawford and they had read through the lines together alone first. Anhalt and Amelia come very close to their relationship and we know that Fanny shares Amelia’s feelings though she would not be so bold as to tell him in her own words. Would Edmund have heard the truth in the lines of the play?

Do you all realize that we dicuss these characters as if they were real people and had choicesrather than made up by Jane Austin. I read once that her characters seem to walk out of the pages and so they do seem to Just look at how we have been relating to them This is one of Janes greatness (May I call her Jane ?)

I tend to discuss characters in this JA group and in my GR HR group as if the characters are real people running their own lives.

@Mrs I tend to discuss the characters from all my books like they are real people.My family has to ask book,movie,or real.

@ Andrea & Nicole

That's funny, I have a similar issue. It used to be everyone's eyes would glaze over when I talk about science or technology. Now they get glazed over when it's about some character in a book. :-D :-D

What does D: stand for?

@ Mrs

Oh that's a smiley. A ":-D" means a really happy ":-)". At least when I use it. I don't why I persist in using old style smilies instead of: ☺︎. Probably force of habit. :-) See, did it again!

And I finally have a reason to get a bit mad at Mary but it's beyond chapter 18 so I'll bide my time for now. ;-)

Mary is really starting to grow on me especially when she intervened for Fanny. She's a lot less rude\difficult than what I anticipated. I hope she keeps this up. Haha