Jane Austen discussion

Fanny is becoming more respected in the household, now Julia and Maria are off the scene. Mary, too, is starting to show her friendship. Fanny and Edmund go for dinner at the parsonage. Henry again returns and decides that he would like Fanny to fall in love with him. Fanny's brother William comes for a visit.

Mary only wants to have Fanny for company now that Julia and Maria have left.I can understand why Fanny doesn't feel singled out.She didn't want her intil there was no one else.

I love hearing Fanny talk about nature.She sees the beauty in it Mary doesn't.

Mary wants to be rich but she loves Edmund.But she also seems to in a way hate for not being the eldest son or have money.Edmund as a younger son doesn't have many choices and Mary should being a women of the world understand that.She does understand it by in the beginning saying she always likes the eldest son it was her way.

Henry is back and like Fanny I wish him away.He is such a worthless uncaring selfish man.Mary might have been different in another place and time but Henry never would have been.Fanny says it all he(Henry)can feel nothing as he ought.

Yes Mary is angry.She now says she has decided against Edmund because he will be a clergyman.She will have no more thoughts of him because in her words by fixing himself in a situation which he must know she would never stoop to.

The only reason Henry wants anything to do with Fanny is because she doesn't want anything to do with him.Plus Julia and Maria aren't there or he would have went back to them.He is such a creep and I can't stand him.I dislike Mary more and more.Not thinking it wrong again for her brother to mess with someone's feelings.

William has come to visit and Fanny is so happy to see him.I love there brother/sister relationship.

I don't think Mary wanted to be friends with Fanny because there was no one else. She actually realized Fanny 's worth (which shows she was cleverer than the Bertram sisters)this is apparent in several conversations in the book including her final one.it was just that previously when the daughters of the house were home it wouldn't have been proper to prefer Fanny . Even now Mrs Norris does not think Fanny should go to dine out at the parsonage By the way she didn't think Henry should mess with Fanny read th conversation again Henry might be a creep but he knew it himself what I mean is he knew what correct behavior was and chose to be a "bad boy"

@Mrs
She protested a little and then told him not to hurt her too much.She really doesn't understand I think what it means to be a friend.If she were a true friend I think she should have carried the point of him leaving her alone a lot longer and did more to talk him out of it.

Henry does what amuses him no matter who it hurts.I think also she wanted to be nice to Fanny because she knew of all things that would make Edmund like her more.

If Mary really is in love with Edmund, she certainly isn't happy about being in love with a future member of the clergy!

She "outlined" the type of life that she'd like to have, but Edmund can't give it to her. Despite her rejection of pining for that feather head Tom, I think she envies Maria, the new Mrs Rushworth.

Henry is even worse than I thought!

More on Henry:

I think that Henry even preferred Maria over Julia bec it was more "fun" to win the affections of Maria bec her betrothal to Rushworth was common knowledge! I recall that Julia was quite hurt that he preferred Maria, who was promised to Mr R. Now he wants to sink his teeth into poor Fanny all bec it amuses him that She, Fanny holds Henry in contempt!

The whole book at this point seems to be about a contrast between those who take life lightly (all the world's a stage), as a game or a play, and those who see it as serious business, where manners on not simply forms but have substantive meaning. The Crawfords aren't perhaps the worst of the players, and in fact are sometimes seductive; but they're players nonetheless.

@Abigail
I agree with you and I couldn' have said it with better words.

At this point of my re-reading I remember why I didn't like Mansfield Park as much as other Austen's novels: it's because most of the time I feel frustrated.

@Andrea
I think it's more she wants Edmund to have what Mr.Rushworth has.

chapter 17
Mary to Mrs.Grant
I often think of Mr.Rushworth's property and independence,and wish them in other hands:but I never think of him.A man might represent the country with such an estate:a man might escape a profession and represent the country.

@Nicole D.

I think you are right. MC wishes that Edmund had what Mr R has. However, she well knows the lot of a son who is anything BUT the heir.

I think Abigail's observation was very apt.

Mary does seek out Fanny occasionally, but we must recall that it was not always appropriate for her to do so. Fanny was not considered "out" - there was even a conversation about it. Yet it is her kindness to Fanny that endears her most to Edmund.

I was finally able to get a bit mad at Mary for allowing her ruinous brother to try and seduce Fanny. Then she goes and does something nice! Impossible girl! I keep trying to dislike her and it is not working out! :-)

@Valshar

Mary is not consistently mean or bad. I think she's an interesting character. She really is hard to pin down.

I agree she is basically a nice girl but she had a bad environment to grow up in both in her uncles house and her friends so her thinking is warped and she is definitely not suited for a country clergyman's wife It took me a very long time to organize my opinion of her but now I have found that I really like her and feel sorry for her and appreciate that she sees Fanny for her worth and is nice to her( even in her final speech )

Aside from Edmund, the only one to show Fanny any kindness (so far) was Mary. Barring any revelations I've since forgotten, I am giving up. I like Mary. :-)

@Nicole, I agree completely.

Also, I don’t think Mary does much without thinking of her own good. She values Fanny above the Miss Bertram’s but her affection for her isn’t really any more than Fanny’s for her. She is a diversion to her, a novelty, and she really makes no push to save her from her brother’s attentions.

I love that William brings Fanny out a little, and that he can see Mrs Norris as she is, whereas Fanny takes too much of what she say to heart. Even Sir Thomas has started to run interference where she is concerned.

@Louise

Mary is uncritical of her brother. She never tries to appeal to his better nature (if he has one). She supports him in all things--even if he is up to no good with Maria and Julia! They have an excellent relationship though.

But do you think their affection for each other is as sincere as that of Fanny and William?

Clearly they are closer than the Bertram's but neither of the Crawfords seem to feel anything very deeply.

@ Louise

I think HC/ MC have a really strong attachment to one another that is touching. I think that they are as devoted as Fanny/William. I think part of what created such a strong bond btwn the Crawfords is that they seem to have been orphaned at a young age. They are sweetly attached to their older sister as well

No I don't think there affection is as close as William and Fanny.But I do think the Crawfords are have a strong affection for each other and most likely like Andrea has stated they got very close being orphaned so young.I do think after William and Fanny they have the strongest sibling bond.Edmund doesn't seem to have very strong relationships with his 3 siblings even with his brother.We know the other 3 aren't very close or affectionate.All it took was Henry and Maria and Julia hated each other.

@Nicole D.

Sadly, it's true that HC came btwn Maria and Julia.

@Andrea

I don't think Henry came between them. There was already and underlying war for attention going on, Henry was just a match that lit the fire.