The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

As Ronald pointed out in the reading poll topic, we don't read many short stories in this group. They were one of the driving forces of SF, especially during the Pulp & Golden Age eras, so it's a huge oversight for a group with our name not to read more.

Jo has said she doesn't mind running another poll & if she can't I will, although someone might have to remind me. Here are my ideas & questions.

Starting 1Jan2018, we'll nominate short stories for the first of the month for one week, vote during the next week, & read them for the last half of the month. Faster timing than books, but they're a quickie read, right?

All stories have to be freely available & nominations have to include a link to a LEGAL site where we can all get them for free.

We'll read them in the same groups as we do now & rotate the same way Pre1920, 1920-1939, etc. While Gutenberg.org, Archive.org, & Gutenberg Australia will work for older stories, there will likely be a problem with stories from 1960-2000. Many will still be under copyright but the older ones won't be on free web sites like Clarkesworld.

Thoughts? This is pretty much off the cuff, folks. If I got it all right the first time, it will be the first time. Pick it apart & let me know what you'd rather do.

Setting up another poll probably means another broadcast message to everyone. Are you OK with that?

I find them annoying & a waste of time, but I check my GR discussion page frequently so I see topics that have been updated. I don't get group digests emailed to me or any emails from GR at all, for that matter, just notifications.

That's just me, though. What do you all want? One issue is we can't edit a broadcast PM for specific people. If we send one, it goes out to all 789 of us & that's why GR limits us to sending 1 per day &, if we goof it up at all, the other moderator has to send another.

I got to thinking...

What if we didn't do a poll or just picked one or even a specific decade, but just made it the first 5 stories submitted?
- One story per person & they can't submit a story the next month until day 5, if there is still a slot open.
- The following month they can submit a story on day 3, if there is still a slot open.
- Anyone who's submission makes it goes back to day 5 again for the next month.
- No broadcast message, just a nomination topic put up on the first of each month.
- We'd make a topic for each short story that wins to discuss in a Short Story folder.

Should we define short story to a limited number of words, say 20K & under?

My suggestion: members nominate a story, from whenever and wherever.

Here are three I liked a lot:

"Impossible Dreams" by Tim Pratt. This Hugo Award winning story about a video store from an alternate universe that appeared in our world first appeared in Asimov's, and is reprinted here:

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/impossi...

"Traveller's Rest" by David I. Mason. First published in New Worlds Magazine in the 1960s and republished at Lightspeed Magazine, the story is well written with clever ideas concerning Time. If Jorge Luis Borges were asked to write a story for a science fiction magazine, he might have written something like this:

http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fic...

The third story is "A Colder War" by Charles Stross, a sequel to H.P. Lovecraft's "At The Mountain of Madness":

http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories...

Ronald wrote: "My suggestion: members nominate a story, from whenever and wherever...."

Isn't that what the Short Story topic is for?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

That hasn't spurred much group discussion. Perhaps a little more structure or build up would?

For what it's worth, I don't think I will read along a lot of short stories. I'm fine with books.

Good to know, one way or another.

I'd read along if the short story captured my interest and it was free. Longer novella-type shorts like At the Mountains of Madness would be a tougher sell.

Jim wrote: "That hasn't spurred much group discussion...."

Most people probably don't get notifications when new topics are started. If you want people to nominate short stories, you should send out an announcement like you do for the novels.

Ed wrote: "Most people probably don't get notifications when new topics are started. If you want people to nominate short stories, you should send o..."

That's good to know. I don't particularly like broadcast messages & other moderators have mentioned that a lot of people in their groups hate them. Some have said people even leave groups because of them. We can add the short stories to Jo's monthly message, though.

I use my discussion page to check for new messages. Groups & topics with new ones bubble to the top & the topics have a red number next to them indicating the number. I also don't use the mobile app. I guess I'm weird.

This is a great idea. I hope if not weekly we could read a short story either bi-weekly or semi-monthly.

In my opinion in order for this to work well, it will have to be highly formatted--nominations are accepted at this time each week or month and should be submitted with link provided and one sentence describing the story (since there won't be a GoodReads page for it in all likelihood), polls run at this time each week or month, discussions start at this time for non-spoilers, at this time for spoilers, and so on.

Also, I think you're going to have to define short story by maximum number of words. Otherwise, people will submit novelettes and longer. I recommend using the SFWA's definition of short story as being less than 7,500 words, found here: https://nebulas.sfwa.org/about-the-ne...

Short story topic link - as mentioned above, perhaps build up and use the decade/era qualifier - why not for the year read shorts from the golden age of science fiction - select writers less well known today, but whose short stories helped define the genre?

I'm sorry Kate, perhaps too much Xmas, but I don't understand what you're driving at. I like the idea of selecting writers less well known today.

Jim wrote: "I'm sorry Kate, perhaps too much Xmas, but I don't understand what you're driving at. I like the idea of selecting writers less well known today."

My Xmas eggnog (or shoveling snow) lacked clarity ~ consider selecting short stories from the golden age of science fiction for the entire year rather than moving forward through the decades ?

Ah! Good thought, similar to one I had for myself. I recently made a list of a bunch I wanted to check out more after reading Forrest J Ackerman's World of Science Fiction. Uncle Forry dropped a lot of names & stories. I've read some of them, but either it's been a long time, I want to see what Gutenberg/Librivox has, &/or there are specific stories to get.

Stanton Coblentz
Ralph 124C 41+: A Romance of the Year 2660 by Hugo Gernsback
Aldous Huxley - Ape and Essence, After Many a Summer Dies the Swan
David H. Keller
Kuttner & Moore plus their pseudonyms
Murray Leinster
Abraham Merritt?
Bob Olsen
Eric Frank Russell
Richard S. Shaver
Edmond Hamilton
Stanley G. Weinbaum ('Adaptive Element' as Jessel?)
Harry Bates - Farewell to the Master
Anthony Gilmore (Bates & Hall?)
Nat Schachner
L. Ron Hubbard - Final Blackout: A Futuristic War Novel (short story?)
Arthur J. Burks

Paul Payne - Planet Stories, first black MC? Check Vizigraph (reader's section) for dust up. Jewish guy flew to city, punched bigot in nose, & flew home on next plane?

Anthony Boucher
H. L. Gold
M.P. Shiel - The Purple Cloud

Since there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest or agreement, perhaps I'll just pick a story & see how many read along. It might be interesting to start earlier, say with Micromegas by Voltaire. I could get Jo to announce it & the topic in the broadcast message each month.

If there are requests for a group read of a story, make them in that topic since conversation could spur looking at another story. Nothing formal, we'll just wander around reading short SF stories.
How does that sound to everyone?

Sounds good.

But fyi, even though I'm late, I get all my notifications by email and never check the notifications tab. And I don't mind receiving broadcast messages at all. ... Just to be contrary.

But imo being less formal is a good way to see how things go for now... if discussions don't get enough participation, or if there are any other problems, we can get more formatted. In my belated opinion.

Somewhere here on EoSF I got this link to The Martian Obelisk by Linda Nagata.
https://www.tor.com/2017/07/19/the-ma...

I put the link on my browser and then quasi-forgot about it. I read it this morning. It's very good.

The communication time lag between Earth and Mars, adds to the suspense. There are references to time as the master torturer, a phrase right out of Gene Wolfe's The Shadow of the Torturer, which I just finished last night.

We've had discussions here about women in science fiction. The main character in this story is an architect, a woman. I didn't give it a second thought. A character is named in the story - When Tory Eastman is referred to as she, it momentarily confused me. It hadn't occurred to me that Tory wasn't a man's name.

OK, here are the links for the 2018's Nebula Awards nominations: where to read the nominees online
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/20/17...

Including most of the short fiction!

Oops. These are basically last years (despite the title @ the site.) Oh, well. Many still (or permanently) free. When I see an actual 2019 list, I'll post it! And Nebula award eligibility is always a puzzle.... 🤓 🤯

OK, 2019 Nebula nominees online, same place:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/20/18...

Kind of a sparse selection of freebies! If I see more, I'll post them.

Gods, Monsters, and the Lucky Peach by Kelly Robson looks really interesting.

Thanks, Peter!

Dan wrote: "Gods, Monsters, and the Lucky Peach by Kelly Robson looks really interesting."

I thought so, too, until I tried it: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
-- but maybe it will work for you. Definitely great cover art!

I noticed after I wrote my above sentence that your review and others' reviews indicate a work that requires too much work needed by the reader to really follow it. I may want to give it a chance some time when I have hours and some isolation so that I can give it my full attention and concentrate on it for a while. I also keep character lists (a way of taking notes) for works like this.

Why go through all this? The premise sounds too cool for me not to read it!

Ronald wrote: "My suggestion: members nominate a story, from whenever and wherever.

Here are three I liked a lot:

"Impossible Dreams" by Tim Pratt. This Hugo Award winning story about a video store from an alt..."

Thank you, Ronald, for your reco for the Pratt story. I think I read it years ago (2008?) but it was fun to see it again. My take:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Daily Science Fiction has a lot of free, short SF stories:
https://dailysciencefiction.com/story

I'd like to encourage more member suggestions.

The Machine Stops Looks like this can be downloaded to as .epub though I couldn't get it to work as I don't have a suitable app. I was reminded of this by reading about Amazon's plans to alexify the world.

Well,this isn't SF, but it's a Mark Twain animal fantasy, & a good one:
http://storyoftheweek.loa.org/2011/11...
Originally published in "A Tramp Abroad" (1880).

Anna wrote: "The Machine Stops Looks like this can be downloaded to as .epub though I couldn't get it to work as I don't have a suitable app. I was reminded of this by reading about Amazon's plan..."

There are several places you can read this for free online. Here's one:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ma...

You can listen for free here:
https://archive.org/details/machine_s...

I read this a few years ago & gave it a 4 star review here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

New one here, at Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"You will remember this" by Justen Russell
Short & clever. Cassandra as an alien!

And another, even better:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"reCAPTCHA all over again"
Are you a robot?
by Aaron Moskalik
5 stars? See what you think. . . 🚀 🔥 ❤️ 🤩

OK. Last one for now: https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"Proxima junk"
Welcome to the curiosity shop.
Mark Vandersluis
A cautionary tale: "They also had thousands of mobile units based on primitive spacecraft technology, which they could use to speedily irradiate any location on their planet. From what we have seen, they had some spectacular successes using these to cover large areas of their world!"

Peter wrote: "And another, even better:
"reCAPTCHA all over again"
Are you a robot?
by Aaron Moskalik
5 stars? See what you think."

Fun. Not 5 stars from me, because I didn't fully understand it.

Ed wrote: "Peter wrote: "And another, even better:
"reCAPTCHA all over again"
Are you a robot?
by Aaron Moskalik
5 stars? See what you think."

Fun. Not 5 stars from me, because I didn't fully understand it."

Me either. Why can't George guess which day of the week it is?

Ed: "Me either. Why can't George guess which day of the week it is?"

Beats me.Late night (or early AM?) read. Need to reread!

And I should read more of the Nature short-shorts. Lots of cool stuff, & the price is right!

Peter wrote: "New one here, at Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"You will remember this" by Justen Russell
Short & clever. Cassandra as an alien!"

That's pretty weird & good. Thanks!

OK, here's another Nature short-short, a fresh take on the alien-possession (or is it an invasion?) theme:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"Gulliver at home"A traveller’s tale, by Anatoly Belilovsky

Perhaps Oleksander can comment on whether (or how) this little story reflects the author's Ukraine background?

Peter wrote: "OK, here's another Nature short-short, a fresh take on the alien-possession (or is it an invasion?) theme:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"Gulliver at home"A traveller’s tale"

I see 3 more by Belilovsky listed on the sidebar. But I'm going to read the new George Zebrowski first ..... 🚀 😎
-- or is that Georg?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"The fast stuff", by George Zebrowski
"It seemed a pity if anyone hesitated in those last moments before light speed, just because Albert had given the problem “a little think”.

Good story. “I think we’ve been let out,” the astronaut said.

https://www.nature.com/articles/543280a
"Proton", by George Zebrowski & Charles Pellegrino

A Jesuit physicist has a crisis of faith:
“Don't you see, Jason?” he asked, grasping my hand. “Feynman's joke of there being only one identical proton, bouncing back and forth through all the cycles of space-time, was the only reality, appearing timelessly everywhere and every-when at once. Our adding a twelfth dimension to the eleven of 'pembrane' theory now supports everything that we see, gravity included.”

In their [spoilery] blog post [linked at story but read that first!], Zebrowski quotes Bertrand Russell:
“we know very little, and yet it is astonishing that we know so much, and still more astonishing that so little knowledge can give us so much power.”

And here's the latest: A nice parable.
"The wind knows all" by Beth Cato
https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
Recommended story. Nice cover art, too

Peter wrote: "OK, here's another Nature short-short, a fresh take on the alien-possession (or is it an invasion?) theme:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d4158...
"Gulliver at home"A traveller’s tale, b..."

I'm confused. "The aliens don't hold with cruelty." But what would any of us call what they did to Dad, to his family, and, presumably, to the other astronauts?

Forthenco Pacino wrote: "
Winds of change is a pretty good collection of short stories, especially Ideas Die Hard.
You saw it. You saw the hidden side of the moon a..."

Author please? I think I read that one, back in the day. . .

Forthenco Pacino wrote: "Will comics count as short stories?"

Count in what way? While we do nominations and voting for long reads, the short stories that we read as a group are picked by Jim in a non-democratic process. He doesn't read comics.

We are free to discuss them. I read tons and tons of comics, in part because, as you said, they are generally short reads.

Feel free to start a discussion on comics. I've mentioned some before, but most members here don't seem interested. You might get more conversation in a different group such as I read comic books.

Just spotted the FB page for the Nature short-shorts:
https://www.facebook.com/NatureFutures/
-- with previews & cover art for the stories. Man, I'm WAY behind on these. At least weekly??

Forthenco Pacino wrote: "But are there any criteria to select the story, or is it all whim-dependant? ..."

He tries to pick short classic stories that are available for free online in text and/or audio format.

You can suggest some in a private message to him. And you can discuss any other short story that you want here or by creating a new discussion thread.

I'll vote for whim-dependent.
;)

Actually, everything Ed said is correct.

OK, another possibility. I m an RA Lafferty fan, in part because I grew up in Oklahoma, not far from where Lafferty lived (in Tulsa). So, https://www.ralafferty.org/works/stor...
"Continued on Next Rock" has always been a favorite of mine. "Lafferty alternates mystical musings about reincarnation with detailed descriptions of archaeological concepts in a fascinating marriage of magic and science.”
—Don D'Ammassa, Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (2009)
“... absolutely brilliant. This story contained everything I expect when I hear the term “visionary literature”: it didn't explain itself (yet was accessible), it engaged archetypal figures, and it tripped the reader into a bizarre other world that was similar enough to our usual world that it just might be our own world seen by truly open eyes. I highly recommend this story about an archeological dig gone inexplicably awry, involving a curmudgeonly Magdalen and impossible artifacts.”
—Deborah J. Brannon, Green Man Review (2004)
Etc etc.
Free copy here,
https://books.google.com/books?id=Oyx...
-- you have to scroll back to p.72 for the start. I'm 'pretty' sure this is the complete story.... It's a good one.

Ayup, Story ends on p. 89. This is a preview of "19 Stories by RA Lafferty", Wildside Press reprint collection, 1991
https://www.google.com/books/edition/...
Looks like Google has two more stories in their Preview.