Reading the 20th Century discussion

Having recently discovered an interesting podcast about spy books, http://spybrary.com/, I have been prompted to try Len Deighton. I can't even recall if I have read him before, but I have now embarked on The Ipcress File which is his first novel. Has anyone else read any of his books? If so, which would you recommend?

http://www.deightondossier.net/

This is a very useful site if you are a Deighton fan.

I think I must have read a bit of Len Deighton when I was a teenager but cannot recall what I thought. I'd be interested in revisiting him (or trying him).

The three giants of spy novels are always said to be Le Carre, Deighton and Fleming, but I have only read Le Carre (as far as I remember anyway!). I do have a feeling I tried The Ipcress File before, maybe as a teenage too, Nigeyb? I used to like Jack Higgins when I was young too.

I've read the first Fleming, Casino Royale and wished I could have come to it fresh without the Daniel Craig film in mind.

The book is more brutal, but also more sentimental and self-deprecating, and we're let in to see Bond's thoughts making him more vulnerable, less cool than the films.

I'd happily read more Fleming, just somehow haven't so far.

I've never liked the Bond films, RC, and have only seen one in full (Live and Let Die, obviously, as a Macca fan!) and bits of others when my husband has watched them. I think Deighton and Le Carre has more appeal to me, as I prefer their more, down at heel, characters than the fantasy image, but I would like to try at least one Fleming. Maybe the books are better?

Susan wrote: "I would like to try at least one Ian Fleming..."


Perhaps On Her Majesty's Secret Service Susan?

I only mention this because the book that the Backlisted Podcast will be discussing on the next episode - on Xmas Day - is Ian Fleming's tenth James Bond novel 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service'.

#itwasmeanttobe

That's interesting. Don't they need to be read in order though?

No, they all work as standalone novels. In fact, from hazy recollections, I don’t recall any ongoing narrative at all. Just an increasing familiarity with the supporting characters (M, Moneypenny, Felix Lighter etc).

Felix Lighter? Hmmm. OK, will think about that, but I would prefer to start at the beginning.

I must confess I am reeling from the revelation...


Susan wrote: "I've never liked the Bond films and have only seen one in full"

How have you avoided them?

I'm not suggesting they are essential, although there are unquestionably a few good ones, and most are enjoyable enough.

Susan wrote: "Live and Let Die"

My personal favourite. Although I rewatched it recently and it has not aged well. Best theme song for sure (up against some very stiff competition too).

Two of the Daniel Craig films - Casino Royale and Skyfall - are superb

Susan wrote: "I would prefer to start at the beginning. "

I know that is always your preference, although I find it hard to imagine you wanting to read them all, and you absolutely could read them in any order without compromising your enjoyment or understanding.

A few years ago I reread From Russia With Love and enjoyed it. I've also got a hankering to read Colonel Sun by Robert Markham (which is Kingsley Amis writing under a pseudonym and is very well regarded).

Susan wrote: "I used to like Jack Higgins when I was young too"

I'm pretty sure I never got to Jack.

I did used to read a lot of Alastair McLean who you never hear of these days, and who staked out similar territory.

Back to Len Deighton, I loved the Michael Caine Harry Palmer film adaptations from the 1960s.

I HAVE seen The Ipcress FIle - makes a change! I think Michael Caine (above) looked gorgeous in it, which is - I admit - why I watched it. Plus I am a sucker for anything set in the Sixties...

I've seen it too. Len Deighton appears in it, or rather his hands do, making an omelette.

I have read one Len Deighton - XXGB, I think. The Germans won the war and have taken over England. Years after reading this I heard that the author was extremely right wing politically and I thought that explained a lot about the book.

I discovered Ian Fleming in high school - the movies started coming out then but I always read the book first, especially Goldfinger and Dr. No. I don't think I have ever seen Daniel Craig as Bond. My favorite is still Sean Connery. Not sure I knew that they had remade Casino Royale. The David Niven/Peter Sellers was just hilarious.

Have also read a number of the John Le Carre George Smiley books. Also probably because of the shows on PBS. Loved Alec Guinness.

Nigeyb wrote: "No, they all work as standalone novels. In fact, from hazy recollections, I don’t recall any ongoing narrative at all. Just an increasing familiarity with the supporting characters (M, Moneypenny, ..."

I would say at least some of them do need to be read in order - I remember that You Only Live Twice very much follows on from On Her Majesty's Secret Service - these were my favourites in the series when I used to read them avidly as a teenager! I also think The Man With the Golden Gun then follows on too.

Earlier in the series, Dr No (can't find a link for it, bizarrely) also leads straight on from events in From Russia With Love. There may be others too.

I read all the books when I was younger, although I'm not a big Bond fan nowadays, and do remember some bits quite vividly even after all these years!

Michael wrote: In On Her Majestys Secret Service, film version, (view spoiler)[Bond's wife is killed, and it is his employment that brought her into harms way. This must have a deep psychological effect on who Biond has become. Therefore need to read that first?? (hide spoiler)]
For reasons I've mentioned before on another thread, From Russia with Love is my favourite.
Love all the Harry Palmer ones, must read them at sometime though!

Michael, there was an open spoiler in your post so I've quickly deleted and reposted it with spoiler tags added - hope that is OK by you. I know the Bond books are very well known, but there may still be readers who don't know of this plot twist.

Bond has never had much appeal for me. The bits of films I have seen have mostly been pretty silly, but I expect the books are better. I think Smiley, Harry Palmer (although he isn't actually named in the books) are more my type of cerebral spies.

Thanks Judy, oops sorry long day and the brain has dis-engaged.

I know how you feel, Michael. I've just sat through a school Christmas concert and now need some peace and quiet...

Yes Susan some of the films are a bit 'fanciful', hence my preference for the earlier ones.

I think the earlier ones are probably best, Michael.

We refer to Bond as a 'spy', working within MI6. That has never sat well with me, I don't see him as spy in the classic sense.

I think the Daniel Craig version of Bond is definitely the best. Takes away the charm, and ups the ruthlessness. He's more of an assassin than a spy.

As I state above Casino Royale and Skyfall are superb films.

The Bourne films upped the ante for all action films and so the Bond franchise had to reinvent itself - so no jokiness or silly gadgets, just lots of brilliant set pieces and kinetic cinematography.

Hard to imagine anyone not being enthralled - even you Susan.

No worries, Michael.

Just wondering if we should set up an Ian Fleming thread, as he seems to be taking over this Len Deighton one?!

You're probably right Judy - though perhaps the bulk of the Fleming chat has now finished?

I don't like Daniel Craig at all as Bond, Nigeyb, in the bits I have seen. Anyway, moving away from Bond, and films, and back to books...

I was interested to read that Len Deighton was an illustrator before being an author. I think he has quite a spare style, but it is also quite poetic. I think it is interesting that Harry Palmer is not named in the books. I suppose that was impossible in the films, so they came up with a name, but it kind of sounds perfect - quite everyman.

Nigeyb wrote: "You're probably right Judy - though perhaps the bulk of the Fleming chat has now finished?"

Could be. I'll hold fire for now and set one up if we seem to be veering back to Bond...

I remember reading The Ipcress File about 20 years ago and enjoying it much more than the Bond books I'd read while in school. I wouldn't put either on the same shelf as John Le Carre though, for my money he's in a different league. As I remember it The Ipcress File was a grittier less globe trotting more down to earth Bond.
As to Alistair MacLean I reread Where Eagles Dare a couple of years ago (as a massive fan of the film) and was knocked out by just how rubbish I found it.
When it comes to the Bond films I have to say I'm not a huge fan but they will always pass a couple of hours without forcing you in to too much thought. And Live and Let Die is easily the best!

I am enjoying the Ipcress File so far, CQM, but I totally agree that he is not comparable to Le Carre. Le Carre seems to have much more depth. However, I will reserve judgement until I have finished it.

Susan, does the book have the same grocery store scene as the film, about the quality of mushrooms?

I haven't got to that part if it is, Michael. He has been to a delicatessen to buy some garlic sausage though :)

Finished, The Ipcress File. My review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Thanks Susan - very interesting

I have to say, I much prefer Le Carre, although I am obviously basing that just on one Leighton novel...

I got that strong impression from your review Susan. Not many can top John le Carré. Having read all the Smiley books in 2017, which were universally wonderful, I am looking forward to reading more books by John le Carré.

Yes, me too, Nigeyb. I would say that Le Carre and Herron are my spy favourites, without doubt. I am glad I tried Deighton, but I struggled a bit. The Bernard Samson series is supposed to be good and I might give that a try at some time, but I don't feel motivated to rush out just now and read it.

Bearing in mind this thread and the Ian Fleming one, I couldn't resist reading a Kindle single book I just noticed, James Bond: My Long And Eventful Search For His Father by Len Deighton.

This is more of a long article than a book (33 pages, looking at the rights wrangles behind the scenes of the early Bond films, the differences between the books and movies, and Deighton's own involvement - he wrote screenplays for From Russia with Love and the Thunderball remake Never Say Never Again, although he doesn't think much of his work was ever used.

Leighton was quite friendly with Fleming, but more so with producer Kevin McClory, who claimed to have invented the movie version of the character.

That's interesting, Judy. I do have the Backlisted podcast to listen to (about Bond) but will need to wait for the school run to begin again, so I will be alone in the car and can listen to my own things again :)

Came across this book on Spybrary: Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang: The Boom in British Thrillers from Casino Royale to The Eagle Has Landed

Looks an interesting read on thrillers - but will undoubtedly add to my reading list!

Thanks Susan - does indeed sound interesting...


When Ian Fleming dismissed his books in a 1956 letter to Raymond Chandler as ‘straight pillow fantasies of the bang-bang, kiss-kiss variety’ he was being typically immodest.

Drawing upon conversations with many of the authors mentioned in the book, Mike Ripley shows how British writers, working very much in the shadow of World War II, came to dominate the field of adventure thrillers and the two types of spy story – spy fantasy (as epitomised by Ian Fleming’s James Bond) and the more realistic spy fiction created by Deighton, Le Carré and Ted Allbeury, plus the many variations (and imitators) in between.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

As it happens, I am reading The Ipcress File right now and really enjoying the mixture of high literary style and 1960s UK slang.

That makes it sound like a winning combination Patrick

It is stylistically demanding. Deighton later said that, since The Ipcress File was his first novel and he didn't yet have a fully developed sense of the author-reader loop, he expected too much of his readers. I don't mind in the least, but it sure ain't Robert Ludlum!

This morning I have been listening to the John Barry soundtrack to The Ipcress File and conclude it's got to be a contender for greatest film soundtrack of all time. Certainly greatest score.

I really must get round to reading some Len Deighton this year, and rewatching the Harry Palmer films

Nigeyb wrote: "I think I must have read a bit of Len Deighton when I was a teenager but cannot recall what I thought.

I really must get round to reading some Len Deighton this year"

The time has come

I'm finally embarking on The Ipcress File

Len Deighton’s classic first novel, whose protagonist is a nameless spy – later christened Harry Palmer and made famous worldwide in the iconic 1960s film starring Michael Caine.

The Ipcress File was not only Len Deighton’s first novel, it was his first bestseller and the book that broke the mould of thriller writing.

For the working class narrator, an apparently straightforward mission to find a missing biochemist becomes a journey to the heart of a dark and deadly conspiracy.

The film of The Ipcress File gave Michael Caine one of his first and still most celebrated starring roles, while the novel itself has become a classic.

Nigeyb wrote: "The time has come


I'm finally embarking on The Ipcress File"

And really enjoying it too. Why did it take me so long?

It's a confusing plot however the pleasure is in the writing. He's nailed the life of the spy, especially the loneliness and suspicion. His descriptions of London are spot on, and really evocative. Factor in his imaginative use of words, his emphasis on bureaucracy, his preoccupation with class and hierachy, and it's no wonder that he is held in such high esteem. Right up there with John le Carré and, as any fule kno, there is no higher praise.

I'll be working my way through his work - thanks Susan for your recommendation.

I recall struggling a little with the Ipcress File, although I enjoyed it. It would have been an interesting alternative, at the time, to the Bond novels, which were recently published.

I have Berlin Game on my TBR list, which was recommended to me.

Thanks Susan. From what I understand it is the most confusing of his books. It was his first novel and I believe he was trying out different techniques and also trying to provide a more realistic depiction of spying than the Bond books which he complained were too implausible. I know the rough story so am able to focus on the writing and the detail, which I am really enjoying.

It is certainly an important novel in the genre. Well worth reading and I would like to explore more of his work.