Feminist Future discussion

This makes me so proud and shows we really are making progress:

"2017 saw both a rise in 'feminism' lookups and a number of event-driven spikes. Feminism is our word of the year."

Great point Brittni! There's a powerful awakening occurring now. You see it more and more, women are tired of men's oppression.

What's so encouraging is the amount of young women now proudly stating they are feminists! The future is female.

Yes!!! I think women were afraid to be called "feminist" for a long time because there was negative stigma attached, and they were afraid of what men would think of them.

Slowly but surely things are turning around. It's happening before our eyes. In a few years from now it will be more obvious in hindsight.

YES!! I think that women who maybe didnt want to call themselves feminists or stayed away from the word are now seeing how important unity is. To me it feels like women are now uniting against misogyny and sexism as we're just fed up of it. We are not suffering in silence anymore and we're not scared to be outspoken.

Eimear wrote: "YES!! I think that women who maybe didnt want to call themselves feminists or stayed away from the word are now seeing how important unity is. To me it feels like women are now uniting against miso..."

Awesome points Eimear. I think there is a transition - when I was little it was 'hip' to be 'not' feminist because it was considered something only smelly women did, and now I see more of us embracing it and living it!

And what is more, women aren't just calling themselves feminists, but also calling out men for their complicity in so much oppression.

A friend of mine is working on writing an interactive play when the entire male gender and the men in the audience are put on trial for man's historic and continuing crimes.

There has to be a retribution and men held accountable.

Jasmine wrote: "And what is more, women aren't just calling themselves feminists, but also calling out men for their complicity in so much oppression.

A friend of mine is working on writing an interactive play wh..."

Yes Jasmine that's so true! Women are finding strength in themselves, community, and humanity to stand up to it! I love it! Awesome point!

Brittni wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "And what is more, women aren't just calling themselves feminists, but also calling out men for their complicity in so much oppression.

A friend of mine is working on writing an int..."

Thanks! I think that point is often overlooked. As well as empowering women - men need to be held accountable for their actions. There has to be a reckoning.

Jasmine wrote: Thanks! I think that point is often overlooked. As well as empowering women - men need to be held accountable for their actions. There has to be a reckoning.

This is so key. While the lip service is nice, male accountability is the only way we make real progress.

Amanda wrote: "Jasmine wrote: Thanks! I think that point is often overlooked. As well as empowering women - men need to be held accountable for their actions. There has to be a reckoning.

This is so key. While t..."

Yep!

How do you envisage this male reckoning being played out?

In terms of the recent outings of abusive men in power, the obvious answer is to remove them and replace them with women. Ideally, rebuilding the power dynamic with diverse female voices in place of abusive males would, over time, create safer and more welcoming environments for more women to find their way into leadership.

That said, I think the vast majority of the issue is too structural and deeply ingrained in the way our society functions to "fix" without a major overhaul of the entire system, but I digress.

Amanda wrote: "In terms of the recent outings of abusive men in power, the obvious answer is to remove them and replace them with women. Ideally, rebuilding the power dynamic with diverse female voices in place o..."

True. Replacing one or two men here and there won't change thing in the long run. We have to recognize that the whole concept of male leadership is rotten. Those structures will only change when we have majority female leadership in all organizations (including politics).

I've seen some companies claim to be pushing for 50% women in their leadership roles. But why not more? Given how women are empirically proven to be better leaders, why not 55% or 60% as a minimum?

I employ 23 people and the entirety of my management team is female. The benefits of this are just so obvious once you see it for yourself.

Jasmine wrote: "Amanda wrote: "In terms of the recent outings of abusive men in power, the obvious answer is to remove them and replace them with women. Ideally, rebuilding the power dynamic with diverse female vo..."

I do believe that we are making progress, and that slowly, but surely - we will breed-out the patriarchy as we know it now. I see it little by little. Will we see it completely gone in our lifetime? I don't know.

Jasmine wrote:. "Ive seen some companies claim to be pushing for 50% women in their leadership roles. But why not more? Given how women are empirically proven to be better leaders, why not 55% or 60% as a minimum?

Quotas tend to one part of the process like a phase 1. The goal is that after it's implemented that you won't need rules dictating a number, but have organic career opportunities after. That way you don't have people come up and tell you you got your job from a quota.

So it doesn't really matter what you set the number at as long as your hiring good, quality people. But the higher you set it the more the other population will push back. 50/50 keeps a balance. A few years after that then you're off to the races and will see how well those good quality people fair on their own merits.

And I fully believe that by the time babies today grow up to be 30, they won't have to deal with a Gender quota. And their kids will think it as weird to us as the creation of the weekend in the 20th century. It's just always been this way...

Pam wrote: "Jasmine wrote:. "Ive seen some companies claim to be pushing for 50% women in their leadership roles. But why not more? Given how women are empirically proven to be better leaders, why not 55% or 6..."

But ditching the quota's that would give male bosses a chance to then push it back to 60/70% male and claim that's just how it naturally worked out.

Men will always try to re-establish a patriarchy if you give them a chance and don't severely restrict them.

That's why for me a quota of 'at least' 50% female would be the most reasonable method.

Jasmine wrote: .."But ditching the quota's that would give male bosses a chance to then push it back to 60/70% male and claim that's just how it naturally worked out.

No one said anything about ditching the quota...

Pam wrote: "Jasmine wrote: .."But ditching the quota's that would give male bosses a chance to then push it back to 60/70% male and claim that's just how it naturally worked out.

No one said anything about di..."

If think you implied they could be in the future: "Quotas tend to one part of the process like a phase 1. The goal is that after it's implemented that you won't need rules dictating a number, but have organic career opportunities after. That way you don't have people come up and tell you you got your job from a quota. "

Pam I see what you're saying. Ideally they wouldn't be removed until the systems were functioning in an equal way, which is a nice idea but functions without a guarantee on how long it would take to really shift the power dynamic. I'm sure there'd be no issue finding qualified (if not overqualified) women to fill higher up positions right now or in the future. The real question becomes: how long would it take to establish female leadership as the new normal concretely enough that those protections wouldn't be destroyed upon removing quotas?

The question of how long it'll take before men aren't telling women "you only got your job because of quotas" is big here too. I imagine that stigma would take substantially longer to remove.

Ah I see. Thank you for the clarification.

Amanda wrote: "Pam I see what you're saying. Ideally they wouldn't be removed until the systems were functioning in an equal way, which is a nice idea but functions without a guarantee on how long it would take t..."

I'd keep the quota's permanently. A quota of at least 50% female or even reserve 50% of senior posts for women and allow the other half to be applied for by both men and women.

And as for men subsequently complaining that 'you only got the job because of a quota'? I'd simply laugh in their faces and then get on with the job.

Amanda wrote: "Pam I see what you're saying. Ideally they wouldn't be removed until the systems were functioning in an equal way, which is a nice idea but functions without a guarantee on how long it would take t..."

My guess would be one generation. Because now the majority of people who hire for firms are old white guys. And they won't change their opinions that they had for 40 years. But they will retire sooner or later and then (with a quota) half of the positions could be filled with women. And the other half with men who grew up with new ideas. And when the kids of todays feminists grow up and start to work, they will not accuse women of getting a job because of a quota. So i don't really think that such a system would crumble as soon as the quota is removed, as long as you wait one generation of employees.

But again, i think some experiences differ greatly, depending on where you're living. Different culture, different problems in society.

"And the other half with men who grew up with new ideas. "

All evidence to me is that the younger generation of men are just as bad in their sexism as their elders, if not worse.

I think it's because they're the first generation to be outperformed by their female peers, at school and college (women do far better in exams and final grades).

And they really resent this. They can't stomach the fact that on an equal playing field, with barriers against women taken down, women do far better than them.

Toxic lad culture and masculinity is as widespread in the 18-25s as the old men in charge now.

Jasmine wrote: ""And the other half with men who grew up with new ideas. "

All evidence to me is that the younger generation of men are just as bad in their sexism as their elders, if not worse.

I think it's bec..."

I'm not sure if this is universal, because here in germany i can watch none of that. Yeah, girls perform better in schools, at least outside of MINT classes. But i do not really know men in their mid-twenties who feel threatened because of that. Maybe because here it's not so difficult to go to good universities (because they all cost the same and it's not much).

And i know a lot of people from school/university/work where the father takes half of the parent-time (the time you get off from work but still get paid, so you can raise your child) to raise the children. And it's relatively normal now for women to have both, family and carreer. I think there is definitely a change going on with those who grew up in the 90s and later. They have all these new role models.

And yeah, there is this new revival of masculinity, but i think it's just a reaction to this change, trying to stop it. And that's where i'm optimistic. I think there are still guys between 18 and 30 who want to hang on to that toxic masculinity. But they get challenged because of it again and again, showing everyone that it's not okay and that it will not be accepted today. I don't think this notion of masculinity will vanish in the next 20 years, but it will not be nearly as strong as it was, getting challenged regularily. And those (men and women) who challenge it, they will have kids and tell them to do that.

Michaela wrote: "Jasmine wrote: ""And the other half with men who grew up with new ideas. "

All evidence to me is that the younger generation of men are just as bad in their sexism as their elders, if not worse.

..."

My fear is that when, in 10-15 years, female outperformance of men is so apparent in all walks of life, men will start to resent a system where they end up doing far less well (even though it's simply due to superior female excellence). They'll see that women can do well in the new world but say 'well whats in it for me?'

I'm not sure how to answer that, nor do I particularly care if there is anything in it for men, they'll just have to suck it up. But playing devil's advocate I can certainly see young men resenting a world where men do less well than women.

Could you maybe give me a few examples for the studies you're referring too? The studies that show female superiority regarding intelligence and leaderhsip? Because i'd really like to read them, haven't read so much in that direction until now.

Michaela wrote: "Could you maybe give me a few examples for the studies you're referring too? The studies that show female superiority regarding intelligence and leaderhsip? Because i'd really like to read them, ha..."

This book (written by a man of all things) "Women After All: Sex, Evolution, and the End of Male Supremacy" is a good summary that explores how women are naturally superior to men.

Jasmine wrote: "Michaela wrote: "Could you maybe give me a few examples for the studies you're referring too? The studies that show female superiority regarding intelligence and leaderhsip? Because i'd really like..."

Thanks, i will definitely check it out.