Victorians! discussion

Please discuss chapters 20 - 29. Please avoid spoilers from later in the novel.

After the fresh air of the countryside Pip's first image of London must have been a bit of a shock. Although London was "rather ugly, crooked, narrow, and dirty" Pip no doubt still saw it first, at a young age, as the place to become a gentleman, shed his coarse boots, and find a way to attract and win the pot of gold, in the form of Estella.

Jaggers and Wemmick present Pip with two very different lifestyles in London, and Wemmick can even be said to have two different personalities within one body.

By the end of these chapters Pip has become a very disagreeable person. It seems thst the more he progresses on the path of becoming a gentleman the more he falls out of favour and touch with what really matters. Joe's visit to London is painful to read.

Dickens's ability to match a person's home/office with their personality continues to intrigue me. Both Jaggers' office and home and Wemmick's castle are all strokes of great style and commentary.

Pip certainly was disappointed on his initial arrival in London calling it "decidedly overrated".

I love the character of Wemmick and when he tells Pip "my guiding-star always is, 'Get hold of portable property'." What a quirky little house he lives in with his father, totally different and separate from his work life.

I agree with Peter that the description of Joe's visit to London was painful to read. When Pip returns to visit Miss Haversham I can understand him staying in the town, but why oh why does he not at least visit his sister? Does he really feel he's risen so far above he can't/won't make the effort to visit the woman who raised him. That says a lot about his character and not in a good way.

I've just remembered another little passage I wanted to comment on.

"I had got on so fast of late, that I had even started a boy in boots". I'm not sure what Pip was thinking here - he's certainly got ahead of himself by employing a boy that he has dressed in a ridiculous outfit and doesn't really know how to utilise.

When Pip first goes to Jaggers office he is told his allowance which he describes as "very liberal". Jaggers comments "Of course you'll go wrong somehow, but that's no fault of mine." It sounds like he knows that Pip will turn a little wild with money once he gets into the habit of having some and I think the 'boy in boots' is a good example of this happening already!

Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "Pip certainly was disappointed on his initial arrival in London calling it "decidedly overrated".

I love the character of Wemmick and when he tells Pip "my guiding-star always is, 'Get hold of por..."

Hi Helen

I agree. Pip is becoming more and more disagreeable. At this point I enjoy reading more about Jaggers, Miss Havisham and Estella than I do about Pip. Dickens certainly knows how to evolve his characters and keep his readers hanging on as we move through the chapters.

How accurate and observant is Dickens when he created Wemmick! He is, perhaps, one of the first characters in literature who demonstrates an effective strategy to survive and stay sane in a modern, urban, boring, work-dominated society. A look around a transit bus or subway and there we all are ... all "Wemmicked" up for yet another day at the office.

I also like the sense of mystery around Miss Haversham's life, who is Estella and where does she come from? Where are the criminals now and who were they? Will they make a re-appearance? Just a little suspense to temper Pip's declining attitudes.

Probably my favourite character in this section is Wemmick, but I felt so badly at Pip's attitude towards Joe when he came to visit. I wanted to box his ears. Poor Joe went away feeling quite out of sorts.

I agree with you, Peter, on how Dickens has the power to evolve his characters and on how Pip is turning out to be less the good person I thought he was. His attitude towards Joe was quite bad and I felt so sad for him. Despite all this, I'm still quite interested in Pip and I believe that he still has a good heart. Maybe the city has changed him - after all his life changed completely.
Also, I couldn't be more anxious to find out who the misterious benefactor is. I think it isn't Miss Havisham, that would be too obvious.

I'm trying to keep in mind that Pip is still very young (under 21, certainly). Although he has some good role models like Joe and people like Herbert, Michael, Jaggers and Wemmick, he doesn't really have anyone to help mentor him in the transition into this new life. It seems to be bringing out his worst instincts!

As for not visiting his sister when he went back to see Miss Haversham and Estella, it seems that he had planned to go, but was diverted when Mr. Jaggers showed up. I think he was a bit discombobulated by seeing Estella!

I, too, think Pip has a good heart - at least he seems to realize (perhaps after the fact) when he isn't kind. Hopefully, he is not so changed in the big city that he can't recover some of his sweetness and lose the haughtiness.

I agree that Pip has a good heart. I think his bad behaviour is more to do with his immaturiity and weakness of character. His infatuation with Estella influences his behaviour so much. He behaves in a manner that he thinks she would approve of. Miss Haversham is also influencing him about the meaning of love. See quote below

"I'll tell you, said she, ....... what real love is. It is blind devotion, unquestioning self-humiliation, utter submission ......... giving up your whole heart and soul to the smiter - as I did."