Victorians! discussion

Please discuss chapters 11 - 19. Please avoid spoilers from later in the novel.

Satis House is one gloomy place. The location and its supporting cast seem to anticipate Kafka. The wedding cake, the order of Miss Havisham of "Walk me, walk me" to Pip are contrasted to Estella's beauty and attraction. Pip's mind must be in a swirl of contrasting feelings. At once he must feel a fascinated repulsion of what he sees around him that is in direct conflict with the early stirrings of attraction to Estella.

With the visit of Joe to Satis house we have the meeting of two worlds. The world of honest labour with the world of decayed commerce and gentry; the world of hearth, warmth and home with the cold, barren austerity of bitterness and regret; the world of energy and movement with a place where time has literally stopped.

And Pip. Apparently drawn to love a world that is sterile and a person who is cold at the expense of turning his back on family and honest labour.

The end sentence of Ch 13 and beginning sentence of Ch 14 suggest ill winds are moving into the book's next phases. "I had liked [being a blacksmith] once, but once was not now." Ch 13 and It is a most miserable thing to feel ashamed of home." Ch 14

Oh Pip, your social ambition is not allowing you to see what is really happening with the ladies at Satis House. Distancing yourself from Joe is a mistake I'm sure. I hope you see that before it is too late.

Pip's parting with Joe was interesting. I like how Dickens wrote the last few chapters in this section. It felt much more realistic to me than some of his earlier novels. I think Pip's ongoing internal dialogue is very relatable, particularly in the end of chapter 19. I get a strong sense that "great expectations" will turn out to be great disappointments. Pip's disappointment with the new suit and his regret at having not had a better or warmer parting with Joe is just the beginning. His calling Miss Havisham his fairy godmother in the narration, even as she delights in Sarah Pocket's jealousy does not bode well.
"with triumph in her weird eyes, and so I left my fairy godmother, with both her hands on her crutch stick, standing in the midst of the dimly lighted room beside the rotten bride-cake that was hidden in cobwebs." She resembles more a witch who has played a cruel trick. I can't help wondering if Pip's "expectations" are a poisoned apple scenario.

Yes, the clash of his emotions he experiences, and his immature view of how the world should be, may well become Pip's undoing as he moves into his new world in London.

Kristen wrote: "Pip's parting with Joe was interesting. I like how Dickens wrote the last few chapters in this section. It felt much more realistic to me than some of his earlier novels. I think Pip's ongoing inte..."

I agree about Pip's internal dialogue. I can relate to his feeling "out of place", as I often felt this way growing up. That feeling of being embarrassed at not having what others have - education, opportunities, clothes, etc. - can be a difficult pill to swallow. And he (at least sometimes) knows that he shouldn't feel as he does.

That feeling of being dissatisfied with one's lot is challenging. Every dream gets so overly fantastic that reality can rarely match up to the vision in one's head.

It's heartbreaking to see how he hurts Joe and others, but hopefully he will grow out of it and realize how important it is to have people who love you. And hopefully he will realize that a person can be successful and happy even if they have (what might be considered) simple expectations.

I was especially sorry for Biddy. I think she is the most level-headed and intelligent person in Pip's village. More of an innate intelligence and an ability to see what is going on than book learning. It was especially poignant when she pointed out to Pip that she had been his teacher once. I think she is interested in Pip, but would never put herself forward, and so she makes do with being his confidante and hearing about his obsession with Estella. Once, Pip was grateful for her help; by the end of this section, he is only haughty and condescending to her.

I have read this book before, but have never disliked Pip so much as I do to this time around. It will be interesting to track my feelings as we move forward.

I think Pip is very human. whether or not we like him, he is definitely an interesting protagonist. Also Pip as the narrator seems to be self-aware and telling the story ftom some future point where hindsight is 20/20. I haven't read many Victorian novels, but I'd be interested to know if others have more "likeable" protagonists. Does anyone know if this is supposed to be a coming of age story?

Kristen wrote: "I think Pip is very human. whether or not we like him, he is definitely an interesting protagonist. Also Pip as the narrator seems to be self-aware and telling the story ftom some future point wher..."

Hi Kristen

GE does fall into the category of the Bildungsroman, or coming of age novel, quite nicely. Many Dickens novels do such as Oliver Twist and David Copperfield.

You are quite right to wonder about "likeable" protagonists, as reading and liking are subjective in many ways.

Pip is certainly very human, and perhaps of Dickens's characters the most honestly drawn portrait of what most humans are like. As we read through the novel it will be interesting to see how our opinions will track.

Hi Kristen

Yes, GE is a Bildungsroman or coming of age novel. Other Dickens novels that would fall into that category would be Oliver Twist and David Copperfield. You are right to question my use of the word (un)likeable. Oliver and David, to me at least, were characters with fewer rough edges. Let us just say, since we are still early in the novel, that Pip is seemingly self-centred and lacking some insight into how he treats and handles the situations he finds himself in. The fact that GE is told from a retrospective point of view does make it an interesting viewing of his own character.

I am thinking of another curious characteristic in the novel. Pip is considered a non entity for the most part so far. Suddenly, from the tailor to Uncle Pumblechook to Sarah Pocket all treat him differently when he is known to have come to fortune. Especially Uncle Pumblechook seems to recollect his sister's bad temper and ill-treatment.

Bharathi wrote: "I am thinking of another curious characteristic in the novel. Pip is considered a non entity for the most part so far. Suddenly, from the tailor to Uncle Pumblechook to Sarah Pocket all treat him ..."

Yes. I believe Pip would continue to be "raised by hand" enjoy working at the forge with Joe and, in all likelihood, would have spent his entire life in or near his home village. That was the way of life for many rural inhabitants at the time in which the novel is set unless they moved to a city to find work or follow the siren's call of possible prosperity elsewhere. I feel that Pip would not have considered leaving if he never came into contact with the world of Havisham - Estella.

Money, or even the scent of it, changes many, as it did Pip. Building sand castles in one's mind, or watching how others treat us because we have money, or even have prospects of wealth, changes human dynamics and interactions.

We'll see how it all turns out later in the novel.