Lexington Reads discussion

Catcher in the Rye will be our group read during August/September 2014. Feel free to use this folder for discussion!

Hi Bobby and everyone else. My name is Luisa and I work at the Carnegie Center for Literacy and Learning in Lexington. We are organizing a great event for November, 7, 2014 inspired by "The Catcher in the Rye" by J.D. Sallinger.
It's our third year with the event Carnegie Classics.
Its an initiative to celebrate literature through different art forms.
We are inviting people to "walk into the pages" of " the Catcher in the Rye". Contact us for more information. CarnegieCenterLex.org

Sounds great Luisa

Hi my name is Cosmic. I just joined your reading group so that I could read the Catcher In The Rye with you all. This is one off my favorite books because I have learned so much for Salinger that I didn't know. I look forward to the discussions.

Thanks for sharing, Luisa! This will be a great chance for everyone to visit/revisit "Catcher in the Rye" before the November event. It sounds amazing!

I wonder who is planning to read The Catcher in the Rye this month? It is unfortunate that they haven't made a kindle version of this book.

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has started reading the first chapter?

(view spoiler)[

I like the story of that Holden's brother writes. Do you remember the name of it and what it is about? Keep the idea of a fish motif in mind as you read this story. Especially keep this one line mind when you hear about the others.

Horses will be a big symbol in this book. On the second page he questions what it is a symbol of since he never saw a horse at Pency Prep. The ones that represent Pencey are good at jumping fences. What are fences good for?

One thing you won't find at Pencey are a lot of girls. It is an all boys school. Girls are a symbol in this story. They are at a disadvantage if they are interested in jumping fences and being connected.

Salinger really went to McBurney school. He really did practice fencing too. He also went to a military academy that was an all boys school. What do you think are the advantages of going to an all boys school is over a coed school?

Holden isn't down at the game because he is going to say goodbye to his history teacher Mr. Spencer. Spencer to me is a symbol for "the survival of the fittest" that was coined by Herbert Spencer. I find that this make sense as we get to know him better in chapter 2

One thing that we hear about Pensey is that it is full of crooks. They will steal the coat off your back even though it is made up of a student body that come from wealthy families.

Why does Holden refer to the cannon as a crazy cannon?
How do you think that Holden got a good Good-bye?
He says that he and his friends were chucking a football in front of the academic building. He mentions Tichener twice. Robert Tichener was a psychologist, Titchener is best known for creating his version of psychology that described the structure of the mind; structuralism.
Structuralism as a school of psychology sought to analyze the adult mind (the sum total of experience from birth to the present) in terms of the simplest definable components and then to find how these components fit together to form more complex experiences as well as how they correlated to physical events. To do this the psychologists would use the method of introspection, self-reports of sensations, views, feelings, emotions, etc.[1][2]

How might school set you up for the experiences you will have in life? How might it help you jump over fences? How might it create a negative experience such as getting the ax. "They give guys the ax quite frequently."

I wonder what you read that you found was interesting in chapter one? (hide spoiler)]

well i decided to run away to harlan county for a month, so i've not really been reading much of anything right now .... but i can catch up!

Cosmic wrote: "I wonder who is planning to read The Catcher in the Rye this month? It is unfortunate that they haven't made a kindle version of this book."

according to this article:

3. The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger. The cantankerous, über-protective Salinger never allowed any adaptation of his novel, including no film versions. (Everyone from Elia Kazan to Steven Spielberg got shown the door.) Since his death two years ago, his agents have continued the "no adaptations" mantra.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artatta...

Mari wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger. The cantankerous, über-protective Salinger never allowed any adaptation of his novel, including no film versions.
..."

I have heard a professional reader read his book and I have seen a PDF of The Catcher. But those are not adaptations like a film. I think that Salinger's decision not to let them make his book into a movie was very wise. Hollywood would have made the theme of the book what suited them and possibly distort the intention of the author. A good case in point is Bambi which is where Disney got his inspiration for the movie from, but the stories are so different that many people have never read Bambi thinking they "know" it because they saw the movie.

Wiki says:

Bambi was "hugely popular" after its release,[14] becoming a "book-of-the-month" selection and selling 650,000 copies in the United States by 1942.[15] However, it was subsequently banned in Nazi Germany in 1936 as "political allegory on the treatment of Jews in Europe."[14] Many copies of the novel were burned, making original first editions rare and difficult to find.[16]

"The reader is made to feel deeply and thrillingly the terror and anguish of the hunted, the deceit and cruelty of the savage, the patience and devotion of the mother to her young, the fury of rivals in love, the grace and loneliness of the great princes of the forest. In word pictures that are sometimes breath-taking the author draws the forest in all its moods--lashed into madness by storms, or white and silent under snow, or whispering and singing to itself at daybreak.


—Louise Long, Dallas Morning News, October 30, 1938[17]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bambi,...

Chapter 2 Holden goes to see his history teacher Mr. Spencer.

(view spoiler)[
Holden finds Spencer wrapped up in "old beat-up Navajo blanket". You are going to see something else at the end of the book that will have this same phrase "old beat-up". What do you remember about the Indians and the American Revolution? http://mtwsfh.blogspot.com/2007/12/li...
Maybe this article explains why Holden refers to the cannon as "crazy".

How were the Indians robbed of their rights? How were they robbed of their land? How were they given small pox? (This is what I thought about when I read about the blanket). How does this dovetail with the idea of the "survival of the fittest"? Is this just propaganda to help us accept death of certain people?

My favorite quote in the book is
"Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules."
"Yes, sir. I know it."
Game,my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are then it's a game, all right-wing I'll admit thst. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game.

Now this comes from a boy that has just gotten the ax at school, lost the fencing equipment and had his coat stolen. (Do you see the connection between the Indian blanket and Holden's coat? How the Indians had their land stolen by the wealthy land owners that signed a treaty with them then took their land. Is school a society that is trained and are we not a product of its conditioning?)

What did you think of Holden's essay on the Egyptians?

How do our leaders save face? Do they write history and erect monuments to themselves to make them look better than they are (the charm)? Philanthropist?

On page 13 Holden starts thinking about the ducks at Central Park South. These are not all the ducks in Central Park or in the north. The only ducks that he is concerned about in the book is the ducks in Central Park South. Let's look at that:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra...

One of the land marks of this area is:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...

On page 9 Holden says "Grand. There's a word I really hate. It's phony. I could puke every time I hear it."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney...

I haven't read Nausea yet but I am thinking that when Holden uses the word puke or vomit that it could be referring to this book. Maybe some that has read this book could tell me how it might relate to the topic.

Do you have any thoughts about chapter 2? (hide spoiler)]

"I'M THE MOST terrific liar you ever saw."

I would say that is a good skill to have if you want to "play the game according to the rules."

Chapter 3. (view spoiler)[
OSS-in-Hamburg got is start in the undertaker business. He is one of the best examples of a liar I know. It's nice that these philanthropists make memorials to themselves so you will want to grow up and be like them.

The OSS is
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office...

When he came to town you had to do a locomotion or a cheer. Reminds me of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Up...!

We have Edgar Marsella blowing a terrific fart. This reminds me of James Joyce book Ulysses because he does a good bit of talking about things you are not suppose to. And maybe this is one of Salinger's mentors.

He talks about authors on page 18.
In Out of Africa I like this quote:
"The squatters are Natives (reminds me of the American Indians), who with their families hold a few acres on a white man's farm, and in return have to work for him a certain number of days in the year. My squatters, I think, saw the relationship in a different light, for many of them were born on the farm, and their fathers before them, and they regarded me as a sort of superior squatter on their estates."

Now he didn't much care for Somerset Maugham. It turns out that he was a spy for the British in WW1.

But he really liked Ring Lardner. It might interest you that in one of Lardner's short stories he mentions something that might give you a key to the title of the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

He likes Thomas Hardy's character Eustacia Bye in the book "The Return of the Native". How clever to give us another clue that NATIVE is a key word. We have had the Indian blanket that Spencer owned. A reference in Out of Africa as well as Chapter 6 when Holden goes to the History Museum. I just thought about the Indians mode of transportation, the horse. So indirectly we have a horse motif.

Oakley hates Stradlater's guts. What do you think Akley and Stradlater represent as a motif?

On page 21 Holden mentions his hat. He starts "horsing around" he pulls the peak of his hat around to the front. "I think I'm going blind." ..."I took it off and looked at it. I sort of closed one eye, like I was taking aim at it. "This is a people shooting hat," I said, "I shoot people in this hat."

Interesting if he is taking aim at the hat then he is shooting those people that shoot people, right? This is how Salinger is a CATCHER IN THE RYE.

Page 26
"He was at least a pretty friendly guy, Stradlater. It was partly a phony kind of friendly, but at least he always said hello to Ackley and all."

To me Ackley reminds me of the preachers (church) and their entitlement. And Stradlater reminds me of politicians (state).

Any thoughts on this chapter? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 4 starts out with Stradlater whistling "Song of India"
Have a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhMxtP...

(view spoiler)[

Tommy Dorsey was popular during WW2. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_...
He even did eighty songs with Frank Sinatra. One of the first movies (and I am guessing popular because it has a link on the above page) is called Ship Ahoy. Ship Ahoy is the title of a 1942 musical-comedy film produced by MGM, starring Eleanor Powell and Red Skelton.

"The movie also is credited with one of the most unusual displays of dance on screen for a sequence in which Powell's character, needing to communicate a message to a (real) US agent in the audience of one of her shows, manages to tap out the message in morse code. (Reportedly, Powell taps genuine code during the performance.)"

I think this is how I thought of the Catcher in The Rye, that the different places he would say "old beat-up" or would give a song, that there was a message in that. Today I discovered this reference...and I am pretty excited about it!


He mentions "Slaughter on Tenth Ave". Nice title.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_...
"Tenth Avenue, known as Amsterdam Avenue between 59th Street and 193rd Street, is a north-south thoroughfare on the West Side of Manhattan in New York City. "

Amsterdam Avenue" was intended to recall the Dutch roots of Manhattan's earliest colonization in the 17th century. According to Sanna Feirstein's Naming New York:

What is now Amsterdam Avenue was laid out in the 1811 Commissioners' Plan as 10th Avenue and opened from 59th Street to Fort George Avenue in 1816. The name was changed in 1890 in a bid on the part of Upper West Side landowners to confer a measure of old-world cachet to their real estate investments in an area that had yet to catch on. The new avenue name supported the speculators' claim that this section would become "the New City" and a "new, New Amsterdam."[2]During the real estate boom of the late 20th century, Amsterdam Avenue from roughly 59th Street to 96th Street became one of the city's most expensive residential districts.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_...

Balanchine originally choreographed Slaughter on Tenth Avenue in 1936 for the musical On Your Toes, in which Ray Bolger played the Hoofer and Tamara Geva portrayed the Stripper. The show was a parody of Broadway, Russian ballet, and the mob. Briefly told, it is the story of a jealous Russian premier danseur who hires a mobster to kill a rival during the premiere of a new ballet. Slaughter on Tenth Avenueis the story of a tacky strip joint and the customer who falls in love with the Big Boss’ girl.
http://balanchine.com/slaughter-on-te...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diA5vU...

I will continue to write about this chapter as I read it.
I haven't really come to any conclusions about "slaughter on Tenth Ave. If you have a idea I would appreciate hearing it. (hide spoiler)]

"The reason he fixed himself up to look good was because he was madly in love with himself." Holden talking about Stadlater. I just love Salinger's wit.

I like to think of (view spoiler)[ Ackley as being a religious leader and Stradlater being groomed for a politician.

In chapter 4 he is telling you about Stradlater. He was a different kind of slob compared to Ackley. He was a "secret slob".

I find Holden's voice to be truthful and perceptive and he lacks what one would expect in a mentally ill person. So it really bothers me that they want to compare Holden with the children that are on medications they didn't have when Holden would have gone to school. When you could bring a gun to show and tell and they didn't lock the school down. Before you had children killing their class mates. Salinger did not write this book with the kind of school atmosphere that we have now, and yet the school was toxic.

But it is these private high schools rich folks can send their children so they can create huge connections and continue to work together for the greater cause. Whatever that may be. We however are manipulated to play a part by being trained to play according to the rules. The rules are important to filter out the ones that are on the team.

There was something that I didn't mention about the hat that Holden is wearing. One way the hat looks like a baseball catcher hat and when he turns it around the other way it looks like a hunters hat. Ackley says it is a deer shooting hat. This reminds me of my ALL TIME FAVORITE children's book called Bambi. If you have seen the movie or read adaptation of this book you have never read the book that Felix Salten wrote. This book is a political allegory with adult themes. In it the Prince tells Bambi that if he wants to survive he will have to stay off the paths.

I think that the hat is an allusion to the book Bambi. Bambi is an allegory about war and the Jewish migration from Russia to Israel. This book was banned by Hitler. This is another book that you cannot get a kindle version of and there is no unabridged version of it on audible. If you don't know about the character Gobo, Falin's brother then you haven't read the story Bambi. I used to read this to my children every fall!

Back to Stradlater. "He's always asking you to do him a big favor." This is so typical of politicians. "You take a very handsome guy, or a guy that thinks he's a real hot-shot, and they're always asking you to do them a big favor. Just because they are crazy about themselves, they think you're crazy about them, too, and that you're just dying to do them a favor to. It's sorta funny in a way. (Really? The bold is what I added and was not in the text.)

In chapter 1 page 2 Holden says "If there's one thing I hate, it's the movies. Don't even mention them to me. " On page 29 in chapter 4, he repeats this, "I hate the movies like poison, " He makes an allusion to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A... . One of the first films that Fred did with Ginger Rogers was http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert.... This is significant because if the song "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" which Holden mentions towards the end of The Catcher In The Rye. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_...
Glenn Miller conducted his rendition of the song at Abbey Road Studios in 1944. His orchestral version of the song was not released until 1995, due to his sudden death in 1944. There were also the Miller-led AAF Orchestra-recorded songs with American singer Dinah Shore. These were done at the Abbey Road studios and were the last recorded songs made by the band while being led by Miller. They were stored with HMV/EMI for fifty years, never being released until their copyright expired in Europe in 1994. (You have to play the game according to the rules.)[86]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_...

While in England, now Major Miller recorded a series of records at EMI owned Abbey Road Studios. EMI at this time was the British and European distributor for RCA Victor.[82] The recordings the AAF band made in 1944 at Abbey Road were propaganda broadcasts for the Office of War Information. Many songs are sung in German by Johnny Desmond and Glenn Miller speaks in German about the war effort.[83] Before Miller's disappearance, his music was used by World War II AFN radio broadcasting for entertainment and morale as well as counter-propaganda to denounce fascist oppression in Europe with even Miller once stating on radio:

"America means freedom and there's no expression of freedom quite so sincere as music".[84][85]-Glenn Miller

Miller spent the last night before his disappearance at the Hall in Milton Ernest, near Bedford. On December 15, 1944, Miller was to fly from the United Kingdom to Paris, France, to play for the soldiers there. His plane (a single-engined UC-64 Norseman, USAAF serial 44-70285) departed from RAF Twinwood Farm in Clapham, on the outskirts of Bedford and disappeared while flying over the English Channel.[89]
Perhaps this is what Salinger was alluding to when he said that Ossenburger probably just put the bodies in a sack and dumped them in the river.

There is another song "Oh, Marie" that is mentioned toward the end of the book that Glenn Miller recorded at Abbey Road Studio.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G...

This has some good reviews:http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Record... (hide spoiler)]

Edward wrote: "Cosmic, you are truly amazing. To have taken a great book, already read and loved by millions, 63 years from inception, and to have found a new, valid viewpoint is absolute genius. I wish I could o..."

Thank you Edward. I don't know you personally but you have inspired me to keep writing about The Catcher In The Rye. Every time I do I discover something that I didn't know. I love doing this kind of research!

I started studying Ulysses because I thought it might give me a hint on how Salinger wrote The Catcher. I bought a book called Weldon Thornton Allusions In Ulysses An Annotated List. Here is a quote from the book.

"The purpose of allusions in a literary work is essentially the same as that of all other types of metaphor- the development and revelation of character, structure, and theme- and, when skillfully used, it does all of these simultaneously. An allusion achieves its purposes through inviting a comparison and contrast of the context in which it is used with its original context. Allusion is distinguished from other varieties of metaphor or analogy by the greater complexity and potential its context necessarily brings with it, it is a metaphor with an almost inexhaustible number of points of comparison."

To me this is what makes The Catcher In The Rye a classic. The story of Holden is not as remarkable as what Salinger wanted to achieve in writing The Catcher In The Rye. In fact the first sentence of the book Salinger tells us that this is not another David Copperfield kind of book. If you read the first page in David Copperfield you will read that a caul is a veil that a baby may be born with. This veil was supposed to be a talisman for sailors to keep them from drowning. Holden's last name is made up of Caul-field. An allusion to David Copperfield. There are more allusions to David Copperfield. I think the "window" (where Holden sees his teacher, when he is getting a good Good-bye) is an allusion to a passage in David Copperfield, I think.

Thank you Edward for cheering me on!

Page 30-31
"My date."
"Yeah?" I said, "What's her name?" I was pretty interested.
"I'm thinking....Uh, Jane Gallegher."
Boy, I nearly dropped dead when he said that.
Jane Gallagher," I said.
The italics is in the original text.

(view spoiler)[
I have noticed different phrases like that killed me or this one "I nearly dropped dead" and these are like pointer to look more closely. Also when Salinger made a word italicized or repeated or made a big deal about a name (such as Tichener on page 4). Here it is the name Jean and Holden reminds him that it is Jane.

"You used to play what with her all the time?"
"Checkers."
"Checkers,, for Christsake!"
"Yeah. She wouldn't move any of her Kings. What she'd do, when she'd get a king, she wouldn't move it. She'd just leave it in the back row. Then she'd never use them. She just liked the way they looked when they were all in the back row."

I think that the "Chrissake" is a reference back to Ossenburger.

I think that Jane refers to this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane%2...

She had a Doberman that would crap in Holden's yard, summer before last. Hmm this might be an interesting time frame to remember later.

But for now the Dobberman.
http://dobermanpinscher.ws/?page_id=27

I wonder if any of you see anything on page 32 that could add to our understanding of the allusions to WW2? (hide spoiler)]

I have been looking at the beginning of the book again because the overwhelming consensus is that this book is about a mentally depressed individual. I don't hold that view but rather see the book as an allegory about and around the themes of WW2. Two things that Holden says that I have been thinking about. One is that he hates the movies. The other is that he is a terrific liar. Since Salinger loved going to the theater and movies I think there is truth in both these statements. One he had a love hate relationship with the movies because the movies were promoting the war...propaganda pieces. And he loved them for their entertainment value in real life. His favorite movie was The Thirty-Nine Steps by Alfred Hitchcock.

Ok so I reread this on page one, "I'll just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to me around Christmas."

(view spoiler)[
I was thinking about what happened around Christmas that has to do with WW2? I thought about when the US entered the war on December 7. Hitler declare war on us December 11,1941.

So what about the "madman stuff"? I looked it up on a search engine several ways and my best bet is that it relates to this movie:
http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article...

If you are lucky you might find a copy on the internet.

Here is a trailer with the poem by Edna St Vincent Millay:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=h...

The poem was a play so you only get a piece of it here at the beginning of the movie and again at the end.

Here is an article that has a review of the poem and some more stanzas of the poem:

http://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-19...

I especially like the last stanza because it repeats the word "catch" and reminds me of the title The Catcher In The Rye. They didn't grow wheat there, they grew rye.

Careless America, crooning a tune!—
Catch him! Catch him and stop him soon!
Never let him come here!
Think a moment: are we immune ?
Oh, my country, so foolish and dear,
Scornful America, crooning a tune,
Think. Think: are we immune?—
Catch him, catch him and stop him soon!
Never let him come here!
Ask yourself, ask yourself:
What have we done?—
Who, after all, are we?—
That we should sit at ease in the sun,
The only country, the only one,
Unmolested and free?
Catch him! Catch him!
Do not wait!
Or will you wait, and share the fate Of the village of Lidice?
Or will you wait, and let him destroy The Village of Lidice, Illinois?
Oh, catch him!
Catch him, and stop him soon!
Never let him come here! (hide spoiler)]

The Radio City Music Hall...and Allie July 18, 1946....no that's not right
(view spoiler)[
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Radio City Music Hall

"With cigarettes and all, the check came to about thirteen bucks. I think they should've at least offered to pay for the drinks they had before I joined them--I wouldn't've let them, naturally, but they should've at least offered. I didn't care much, though. They were so ignorant, and they had those sad, fancy hats on and all. And that business about getting up early to see the first show at Radio City Music Hall depressed me. If somebody, some girl in an awful-looking hat, for instance, comes all the way to New York--from Seattle, Washington, for God's sake--and ends up getting up early in the morning to see the goddam first show at Radio City Music Hall, it makes me so depressed I can't stand it. I've bought the whole three of them a hundred drinks if only they hadn't told me that."

The Radio Music Hall:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_....

This is John D. Rockefeller creation.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D....

He was the only son among the five children of Standard Oil co-founder John D. Rockefeller
http://reformed-theology.org/html/boo...

"Regrettably, the Congressional committees did not explore an even more ominous aspect of this Standard Oil — I.G. Farben collusion: that at this time directors of Standard Oil of New Jersey had not only strategic warfare affiliations to I.G. Farben, but had other links with Hitler's Germany — even to the extent of contributing, through German subsidiary companies, to Heinrich Himmler's personal fund and with membership in Himmler's Circle of Friends as late as 1944."

"Another prominent example of Standard Oil assistance to Nazi Germany — in cooperation with General Motors — was in supplying ethyl lead. Ethyl fluid is an anti-knock compound used in both aviation and automobile fuels to eliminate knocking, and so improve engine efficiency; without such anti-knocking compounds modern mobile warfare would be impractical."

Holden is the name of a car made by GM.
http://www.holden.com.au/

During the thirties they made war related things.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden

"However, World War II delayed car production with efforts shifted to the construction of vehicle bodies, field guns, aircraft and engines.[15] Before the war ended, the Australian Government took steps to encourage an Australian automotive industry.[18] "

GM made:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

Thus Holden's preoccupation with the ducks.

The Allies (Allies) go into Spain in 1948, no...just like Holden corrects Stradlater that it is Jane not Jean so you have to do this with Allie.

"He got leukemia and died when we were up in Maine, on July 18, 1946. You'd have liked him. He was two years younger than I was, but he was about fifty times as intelligent. "

http://www.sdheroes.com/?p=7276
"The war is usually taken as a prelude to World War II, which is often characterized as a clash between the left and right, between Hitler and Stalin, including the allies of each."

https://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/qu...

Spain and Portugal were Not Neutral during WW2 they just said they were Portugal was selling Ore to the Nazis

Spain was the Conduit for food Oil fuel supplied By standard Oil IG Farben up to July 1944 when France fell Spain was of Little Value to the Germans and the British in 1944 convinced the Portugal to stop dealing with the Nazis

Sweden was selling Ball bearings to the German GM factory and also supplying the ITT Factory Ball bearings ITT was Building Focke Wulf's

and we all Know that the Swiss who also claimed Neutrality were Hitlers Bankers. (hide spoiler)]

Has this group read been taken off the Catcher In The Rye discussion board? I didn't see it listed.

I didn't remove it...not sure what happened. It should be back now. Thanks!

Bobby wrote: "I didn't remove it...not sure what happened. It should be back now. Thanks!"

Thanks you Bobby.
I've had a great time reading this book again.
I hope you all enjoying it as much as I am.

"So what I did,I wrote about my brother Allie's baseball mitt." Page 38

(view spoiler)[
"My brother had this left-handed finder's mitt."

I was looking for a metaphor for left handed. I haven't found one yet but I found this very insightful post about hands:
http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.com/200...

Gloves and hands are a huge symbol in the Catcher and reading this today reminded of it. So I will go back and look up some of the areas where they are mentioned and also show you some references that are in other books and movies that Salinger was alluding to. (hide spoiler)]

I get so excited every time I start studying the Catcher. It took Salinger 10 years to write this book and yet in the surface it doesn't have a complicated storyline.

I have been studying gloves. Of course in the beginning of the book he talks about the guys at Pencey Prep stealing his furlined gloves and camel coat.

He says the richer the school the more crooks it has.
Chapter 13 The first two chapters:
(view spoiler)[
The first paragraph has him walking back 41 blocks....and then he tells us that he used to climb 12 stories up in the apartment that he lived in.

I see this as an allusion to 1941 and December 7 was when we entered WW1. December ? (I will have to come back and fill in the date or someone else can answer it, Hitler declared war on the U.S..

Next paragraph he talks about finding his gloves in a closet of of someone from Pencey Prep. He would like to imagine that he would go up to them and confronting them when he found the gloves in the guys closet inside the galoshes. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galoshes

Gloves were suppose to protect the hands against the cold. Both golashes and gloves were suppose to protect one against the weather.

Weather was a big deal in WW2. Maybe someone that is more knowledgeable than I can talk about this. I had only become interested in learning about WW2 after reading The Catcher In The Rye.

But weather is important in the Catcher when we look at the name that Phobe calls herself when she is a detective. Is this not a hint that the weather played a huge part in the game of war.

In this same paragraph that goes on to the next page (89) you see yellow mentioned several times. To me this reminded me of the yellow star of David the Jews were required to wear in Nazi Germany.

I have to go but I hope this will give people something to think about. (hide spoiler)]

The Return of the Native is mentioned on page 19. Holden says that he liked to call old Thomas Hardy up. "I like that Eustacia Via."

So I started reading The Return of the Native. I have yet to be disappointed to discover something in the books or movies mentioned in The Catcher in the Rye to shed light on Salinger's true reason for writing this book.

(view spoiler)[

So I read it and found this quote...
"as upon some wondrous thing she had created out of chaos."

Maybe quite innocent but it reminds me of the quote

"ORDER OUT OF CHAOS"

Here is a Masonic web site that talks about a book called Order Out of Chaos The Landmark of Freemasonary.

http://northernfreemason.com/masons/2...

What does this have to do with the Catcher in The Rye?

Well it would seem that the first reference to phoney is also a reference to free mason.

See my post here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I am interested in seeing how Eustacia Via does this. Presently at this quote she has called a secret meeting with the use of a bon fire up on a hill.

But this isn't the only reference to secret societies in the Catcher. See if you can find more of them. (hide spoiler)]

Edward wrote: ""Order out of chaos." That's exactly where it is. Try to explain it. Martyrdom. Ignorance. Painful protracted demise. Old extremely boring story. Yet, there has been no other offered. The sterile c..."

I remember reading the "Fuck You" when Holden takes the "brothers" down into the "crypt"....you know where the Egyptian exhibit inside the Natural Science Museum. And I though about the dollar and how they kept printing them making them more and more worthless and really turning us into slaves while they talk about how free we are and how freedom cost something. I think someone is laughing all the way to the bank.

But back to our regular programming:
The Return of the Native
(view spoiler)[

In post 25 I mention how Holden says he really likes Eustacia Vye. Her is a quote from
Chapter 8
Queen of Night

Eustacia Vye was the raw material of a divinity. On Olympus she would have done well with a little preparation. She had the passions and instincts which make a model goddess, that is, those which make not quite a model woman. Had it been possible for the earth and mankind to be entirely in her grasp for a while, she had handled the distaff, the spindle, and the shears at her own free will, few in the world would have noticed the change of government. There would have been the same inequality of lot, the same heaping up of favours here, of contumely there, the same generosity before justice, the same perpetual dilemmas, the same captious alteration of caresses and blows that we endure now.


1."Not quite a model woman." Think about our view of Hitler. He is not quite a model man.

2.)Distaff -unspun fibers, keeping them untangled and thus easing the spinning process.

"You look a little tied up."
Better to keep you from doing what you want.

3.)Spindle -A spindle is a straight spike usually made from wood used for spinning, twisting fibers such as wool, flax, hemp, cotton into yarn.

"You are look like you are drunk." No, just a little dizzy from all this spinning.


4.)Shears- Sheep shearing is the process by which the woollen fleece of a sheep is cut off. The person who removes the sheep's wool is called a shearer.

"What happened to ya?" "Oh, I've been fleeced."

(To take advantage of).

5.) contumely http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwo...

The link is that the swelling up was with misplaced or ill-judged pride, leading to arrogant behaviour.

6.) Dilemma
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DilemmaA dilemma (Greek: δίλημμα "double proposition") is a problem offering two possibilities, neither of which is practically acceptable. One in this position has been traditionally described as "being on the horns of a dilemma", neither horn being comfortable. This is sometimes more colorfully described as "Finding oneself impaled upon the horns of a dilemma", referring to the sharp points of a bull's horns, equally uncomfortable (and dangerous).

7.)captious-If someone tends to be hypercritical and find fault with everything, you can describe that person as captious.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/...

captious, something is calculated to confuse or deceive — such as a captious explanation of the facts. When a person is described as captious, the sense is usually of nitpicking at faults or raising petty objections. It is usually used to imply a permanent character or personality flaw, as opposed to a momentary lapse in understanding. (hide spoiler)]

I am still reading the The Return of the Native
(view spoiler)[

Having read this book once I wondered if it would have anything of interest toThe Catcher in the Rye.
Well I was surprised to find that Eustacia Via wants to go to Paris. She doesn't want to stay in her Heath.

Also there is another mention of caul.

"And I was born wi' a caul, and perhaps can be no more ruined than drowned?" Christian added, beginning to give way.
Ultimately Christian laid down his shilling, the raffle began, and the dice went round. When it came to Christian's turn he took the box with a trembling hand, shook it fearfully, and threw a pair-royal. Three of the others had thrown common low pairs, and all the rest mere points.
"The gentleman looked like winning, as I said," observed the chapman blandly. "Take it, sir; the article is yours."
"Haw-haw-haw!" said Fairway. "I'm damned if this isn't the quarest start that ever I knowed!"
"Mine?" asked Christian, with a vacant stare from his target eyes. "I—I haven't got neither maid, wife, nor widder belonging to me at all, and I'm afeard it will make me laughed at to ha'e it, Master Traveller. What with being curious to join in I never thought of that! What shall I do wi' a woman's clothes in MY bedroom, and not lose my decency!"
"Keep 'em, to be sure," said Fairway, "if it is only for luck. Perhaps 'twill tempt some woman that thy poor carcase had no power over when standing empty-handed."
"Keep it, certainly," said Wildeve, who had idly watched the scene from a distance.
The table was then cleared of the articles, and the men began to drink.
"Well, to be sure!" said Christian, half to himself. "To think I should have been born so lucky as this, and not have found it out until now! What curious creatures these dice be—powerful rulers of us all, and yet at my command! I am sure I never need be afeared of anything after this." He handled the dice fondly one by one. "Why, sir," he said in a confidential whisper to Wildeve, who was near his left hand, "if I could only use this power that's in me of multiplying money I might do some good to a near relation of yours, seeing what I've got about me of hers—eh?" He tapped one of his money-laden boots upon the floor."

So the caul has another allusion to luck or risk.

In the Catcher you will remember reading about Luck...and in another place about reaching for the "gold ring". (hide spoiler)]

I finished reading The Return of the Native.

Eustacia Vye, who Holden really liked has quite an interesting history and then demise. Who do you think she represents in the theater of WW2, according to Salinger? And why?

(view spoiler)[



I think that Eustacia Vye represents Germany. The reason for this is that she uses others just like Hitler used the Germans to go after different countries riches. He was like killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

One of Salinger's favorite movies, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...
reminded me of this. The title of this movie is taken from the book The Great Illusion. Now in this book he lays out why it is not economically in the interest of the German people to go to war. Then we have WW1 and after this When Money Dies: The Nightmare Of The Weimar Hyper Inflation. So he was correct in his analysis...even though Germany did go to war.

Eustacia wants to go to Paris. She is an opportunist. She thinks one man will take her there and when he disappoints her she seems another man. In the end she realizes she is more dependent on money that she imagined and gives up and kills herself.

Why would Holden like Eustacia? First we would have to figure out who or what Holden represents. In The Return of the Native as I have stated in my last post, we have another use of the word caul. Luck was associated with it.

I think Holden if we remover one letter and exchange it for an "r" we get "Holder". HOLDEN CAULFIELD represents the Stock Holder. In the chapter with Spencer we have his name spelt out like a business...or corporation, in all capital letters. Page 12

What do you think about this?
http://reality-bytes.hubpages.com/hub... (hide spoiler)]

On the first page of the Catcher in the Rye we are introduced to three people in Holden's family. His mother and father, whom he says if he ever said anything about them they would have "about two hemorrhages a piece.
He also introduces us to his brother D.B.
(view spoiler)[
"
"I mean that's all I told D.B. about, and he's my brother and all. He's in Hollywood. That isn't too far from this crumby place, and he comes over and visits me practically every week end. He's going to drive me home when I go home next month maybe. He just got a Jaguar. One of those little English jobs that can do around two hundred miles an hour. It cost him damn near four thousand bucks. He's got a lot of dough, now. He didn't use to. He used to be just a regular writer, when he was home. He wrote this terrific book of short stories, The Secret Goldfish, in case you never heard of him. The best one in it was "The Secret Goldfish." It was about this little kid that wouldn't let anybody look at his goldfish because he'd bought it with his own money. It killed me. Now he's out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute. If there's one thing I hate, it's the movies. Don't even mention them to me. "

Now I am maintaining in this post that Holden represents a stock in the stock market. That stock is GM. Because GM bought the Holden plant in 1930 when they were in financial trouble and then used that factory to start making war related items. Also when Holden signs his name on page 12 it is just like you would see it on your checks or credit card. It is not how you sign your school paper or your signature.

D.B. in this allegorical sense would be....
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=db
He made his money after writing a book of SHORT stories.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_...

The one that Holden like best was called The Secret GOLD-fish. This was also the title of the book.

Secret means:
1 a : kept from knowledge or view : hidden
b : marked by the habit of discretion : closemouthed
c : working with hidden aims or methods : undercover (a secret agent)
d : not acknowledged : unavowed (a secret bride)
e : conducted in secret (a secret trial)
2 : remote from human frequentation or notice : secluded
3 : revealed only to the initiated : esoteric
4 : designed to elude observation or detection (a secret panel)
5 : containing information whose unauthorized disclosure could endanger national security — compare confidential, top secret

Goldfish symbolizes: http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld...

According to Feng Shui, a fish represents wealth and prosperity because the actual word in Chinese for fish, in Pinyin: yú, 魚, also translates to “abundance” 裕 Pinyin: yù.

In the The Hare With Amber Eyes: A Family's Century of Art and Loss the author talks about his family support of Germany because if Germany lost ...we know that Germany lost....it was the D.B. bank that bought this Jewish bankers bank for pennies. The family was ruined. The bank that had been in the family for generations gone.


D.B. drives a Jaguar. A jaguar is at the top of the food chain. One of those English jobs. Hmmmm very interesting watch this film about Lady Diana:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=l...

Not sure if this is related...it could be if Diana was induced to go into labor.
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vide...
Anyway....
"Now D.B. is out in Hollywood being a prostitute and all."
If Holden is a stock on the stock exchange then Hollywood and the Stock Exchange are in bed together.
In The Seven Pillars of Wisdom he defines what it means to be a prostitute:

"What now looks wanton or sadistic seemed in the field inevitable, or just unimportant routine.
"Blood was always on our hands we were licensed to it. Wounding and killing seemed ephemeral pains, so very brief and sore was life with us. With the sorrow of living so great, the sorrow of punishment had to be pitiless. We lived for the day and died for it. When there was reason and desire to punish we wrote our lesson with gun or whip immediately in the sullen flesh of the sufferer, and the case was beyond appeal. The desert did not afford the refined slow penalties of court and gaols(prison).
"Pray God that men reading the story will not, for the love of the glamour of strangeness, go out prostitute themselves and their talents in serving another race.
"A man who gives himself to be a possession of aliens leads a Yahoo life, having battered his soul to a brute master. He is not of them. He may stand against them, persuade himself of a mission, bait and twist them into something which they of their own accord, would not have been. Then he is exploiting his old environment to press them out of theirs. Or after my model, he may imitate them so well that they spuriously imitate him back again. Then he is giving away his own environment: pretending to theirs and pretences are hollow, worthless things. In neither case does he do a thing of himself, nor a thing so clean as to be his own (without thought of converse), letting them take what action or reaction they please from the silent example."

This reminds me of
The Century Of The Self. Here is a link to the trailer. The series is a BBC documentary that is five hours long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YLy6...
Here is a review of it:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-ce... (hide spoiler)]

Cosmic and Edward, have you noticed that you are the only ones posting on this topic in this group?

Karen wrote: "Cosmic and Edward, have you noticed that you are the only ones posting on this topic in this group?"

No. There are 45 of us here at least. When I joined this group I told the moderator that I had a different view of the Catcher than just interpreted as "teenage angst". I was invited to read this book with the group. Perhaps not known to myself I am the guest moderator of the group. I invite anyone that wishes to discuss The Catcher in the Rye and wants to read it with us to join. It is a short book and you have plenty of time to read it.

Will you be joining us Karen?

So on the first page three of Holden's family are named:
Holden has a mother and a father and a brother named D.B.
Now in order for my theory to hold this dysfunctional family must relate to each other.

"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, an what my lousy childhood was like, and how my parents were occupied and all before they had me, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth. In the first place, that stuff bores me, and in the second place, my parents would have about two hemorrhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them. They're quite touchy about anything like that, especially my father. They're nice and all--I'm not saying that--but they're also touchy as hell. " (view spoiler)[

Some things that we are told about Holden's father:

Holden's father wanted Holden to be a Yale man:

"On my right there was this very Joe Yale-looking guy, in a gray flannel suit and one of those flitty-looking Tattersall vests. All those Ivy League bastards look alike. My father wants me to go to Yale, or maybe Princeton, but I swear, I wouldn't go to one of those Ivy League colleges, if I was dying, for God's sake."
CHAPTER 12 Page 85

Maybe he had high hopes that he might get tapped like:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred...

"I got a cab outside the hotel, but I didn't have the faintest damn idea where I was going. I had no place to go. It was only Sunday, and I couldn't go home till Wednesday-or Tuesday the soonest. And I certainly didn't feel like going to another hotel and getting my brains beat out. So what I did, I told the driver to take me to Grand Central Station. It was right near the Biltmore, where I was meeting Sally later, and I figured what I'd do, I'd check my bags in one of those strong boxes that they give you a key to, then get some breakfast. I was sort of hungry. While I was in the cab, I took out my wallet and sort of counted my money. I don't remember exactly what I had left, but it was no fortune or anything. I'd spent a king's ransom in about two lousy weeks. I really had. I'm a goddam spendthrift at heart. What I don't spend, I lose. Half the time I sort of even forget to pick up my change, at restaurants and night clubs and all. It drives my parents crazy. You can't blame them. My father's quite wealthy, though. I don't know how much he makes--he's never discussed that stuff with me--but I imagine quite a lot. He's a corporation lawyer. Those boys really haul it in. Another reason I know he's quite well off, he's always investing money in shows on Broadway. They always flop, though, and it drives my mother crazy when he does it. She hasn't felt too healthy since my brother Allie died. She's very nervous. That's another reason why I hated like hell for her to know I got the ax again. "


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...

Vanderbilt Hall, named for the family that built and owned the station, serves as the entrance area from 42nd Street at Pershing Square. The terminal has been properly called “Grand Central Terminal” since 1913.

The Vanderbilt were part of an exclusive club:
http://www.jekyllclub.com/about-us/cl...

The Secrets Of The Federal Reserve
The Secrets Of The Federal Reserve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RkOqE...

The Biltmore Hotel
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/G...
The hotel opened on New Year's Day 1913, and was operated by Baumann until his death on October 15, 1914.[1] John McEntee Bowman, the Biltmore's manager under Mr. Baumann, took control of the lease and operated the hotel thereafter.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...

Interesting how he dies:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract...

The Biltmore was the brainchild of Gustav Baumann and was the fourth grand New York City hotel to be designed by Warren & Wetmore. It was described as being sumptuous and magnificent and its design ensured that at twenty-six stories it still maintained a harmonious relationship with the rest of Terminal City. A palm court, grand ballroom, Italian garden, and private arrival station at Grand Central ensured that the Biltmore would be in a class of its own. Its name lured the likes of Zelda and F. Scott Fitzgerald to honeymoon there and F. Scott Fitzgerald and J.D. Salinger to incorporate it hotel into their stories.

The hotel was also historically important. Henry Ford tried to broker an end to the First World War there in 1915. On August 4, 1916, the Treaty of the Danish West Indies was signed there by Danish Minister Constantin Brun and Secretary of State Robert Lansing, giving the Danish West Indies (now U.S. Virgin Islands) to the United States for $25,000,000 in gold. Also, from May 6 to May 11, 1942, 600 delegates and Zionist leaders from 18 countries attended the Biltmore Conference, which resolved that British Mandate Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth.

http://untappedcities.com/2013/02/12/...

Picking up the pieces after Baumann :
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M...

(To be continued) (hide spoiler)]

Edward wrote: "An observation. You have flip-flopped a bit on whether or not you considered Holden depressed. I keep in mind that that word has been defined by the pill dispensing industry prone to acronyms, sometimes abandoned in later years. For whatever its worth I never considered Holden depressed in any sense of the word, with which I thought myself familiar. HE WAS DISDAINFUL AND DISGUSTED. There's a real difference. He saw the kids as others sharing the same values. But then they grow up and become smart; perhaps a precursor to; "Don't trust anyone over thirty.".."


I would say that this thread lacks the voice of the "teenage angst" crowd as well.

If we talk about "depression"...perhaps we could talk about a financial depression. These is a point where Holden is talking to the teacher and he repeatedly says that he loves shooting the bull. Well a pull market is an up market. When the economy is depressed then you can buy up your competition. This is exactly what GM did when they bought the Holden factory.

We had a man at a talk that I went to that was a specialist at cytology. He was pointing out several things about the code that he was breaking and he said one of the things is that the code has to work every place.

I don't think the depressed explanation works for so much of the book. It doesn't explain his fascination with the ducks. It doesn't really contribute to any "understanding" when relating to Ackley and Stradlater. He has too much perspective to be depressed. And tell me what is he depressed about? His brother? Or the ducks? This doesn't explain how it kills him when his brother becomes a prostitute for Hollywood film industry.

It was all these open loops that made me question the official interpretation.

Personally I was not really interested in WW2. I was interested in getting an education like Salinger had. I believed that his education would not insult my intelligence to believe that he could write about the mummies in Egypt and didn't know where the ducks went in the winter. I believed also that it was insulting to think that we as a reader would not notice that he hates the movies in chapter 1 and then devotes several pages to talk about going to the movies. I believed that Salinger was smarter than me, because I had not played, nor my parents paid for an ivy league education.

When something doesn't fit together logically then you haven't broken the message that the author is trying to get across. I was looking for that thread or cipher.

I think that logically it was History and Hollywood and Wall Street.

I haven't explored enough of the passages when he goes to the lagoon. I am still breaking the code. But I believe that Holden talking about disappearing is what some are emphasising when they talk about Holden being depressed.

I don't think it is unusual for an allegory to be two stories in one. Bambi is like this.

Don't forget, The Carnegie Center will be featuring "Catcher in the Rye" at their annual "Carnegie Classics" event on November 7th. Details here: http://carnegiecenterlex.org/event/ca...

Cosmic wrote: "So on the first page three of Holden's family are named:
Holden has a mother and a father and a brother named D.B.
Now in order for my theory to hold this dysfunctional family must relate to each o..."

I just wanted to continue with this thread of Holden's family. I didn't expect to find out too much about Holden's father but was pleasantly surprised when I googled "Hollywood 30's corporate lawyer". (view spoiler)[

So I came up with Greg Bautzer.http://m.newsok.com/greg-bautzer-a-gl...

Makes me want to read The Man Who Seduced Hollywood: The Life and Loves of Greg Bautzer, Tinseltown's Most Powerful Lawyer.

I think that Allie is another names for "Allies".

There are a lot of names in the Catcher like this.

You have Stradlater....which is made up of two words
STRAD AND LATER.
http://www.thestrad.com/
This violin magazine has been around since 1890. Do you remember Holden talking about a violin. How does this relate to Stradlater? Who was he going to play like a violin in WW2? If Jane is the catalogue of military accessories? How would this related?

Who is Holden's mom?

I think Holden's mom is of course America. Look who bailed them out of the financial crisis?
"She hasn't felt too healthy since my brother Allie died. She's very nervous. That's another reason why I hated like he'll for her to know I got the ax again."

Look at the fascist symbol again:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascis...

Look at all these Eagles....who have got the ax. Great pun Salinger.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascis...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic...
Both during and after his terms, and continuing today, there has been much criticism of Franklin D. Roosevelt. Critics have questioned not only his policies and positions, but also the general consolidation of power that occurred due to his responses to the crises of the Depression and World War II. Also controversial was the unprecedented length of his tenure as President.

By the middle of his second term, much criticism of Roosevelt centered on fears that he was heading toward a dictatorship, by attempting to seize control of the Supreme Court in the Court-packing incident of 1937, attempting to eliminate dissent within the Democratic party in the South during the 1938 elections, and by breaking the tradition established by George Washington of not seeking a third term when he again ran for re-election in 1940.

In 1940, with the two-term issue as a weapon, anti-New Dealers... argued that the time had come to disarm the 'dictator' and to dismantle the machinery."[1] These criticisms largely ended after the Attack on Pearl Harbor.


Wars make money because a civilian is caught in the middle. And the warlords fight and rearrange the ponds on the board. War doesn't make sense to those that fight it as much as to those that profit by it.

So D.B. (the Deschutes Bank) wrote a short story called "The Secret Goldfish". The story was about a boy (maybe a boy that goes to Pence-y Prep?) that wouldn't let anyone see his fish (capital) because bought it with his own money.

Now the Eskimo how did he get his fish? No matter how many times you visit the Museum of Natural History it is always the same, because history repeats itself. The Eskimo works for his fish.

So when the taxi car driver tells Holden he shouldn't worry about the ducks he should feel sorry for the fish that are frozen and can't move or get out. The fish is capital and it isn't moving. It is frozen. It is the depression. The ducks are going to go find better fish....where?

Well at the Natural History Museum where things always repeat themselves he says that if you turn your head upside down so the birds migrate north instead of south they go faster. What DUCKS is Holden talking about? The ones that left The Grand Army Plaza that is at Central Park South.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centra... (hide spoiler)]