Rothfussians discussion

I really think that the Lockless box contains something that has to do with the Chaendrian.As Kvothe,Alveron and Meluan discuss it they seem to think that it was "Locked away because it was dangerous and precious and could'nt be destroyed". It had been locked away so that no one could lay eyes on it. Further more, Meluan says that no one would dream of writing anything about the Loeclos box and nothing abt it was recorded. It was an extremely secret thing. Also, there's the matter of the carved Yllish story knots on it. Yll had disappeared long ago and story knots were now extinct, enforcing the idea that it was old and was almost impossible to open. The box has remained closed for abt 3000 years.
I really thing it has a panting on glass or an engraving on stone or metal about the Chaendrian. Who else thinks this is the case?

Hello!

Really interesting your idea about Chandrian! I think it's totaly possible.

I think it could be the Iax (the man who stoled the moon) box, in his story say that he locked the name of moon in a small box, so I think inside the box there is something related to the moon, for example pieces of the moon that he has found out and used to call the name of the moon.

But the chandrian theory is very interesting too and makes a lot of sense.

Well, i did consider the possibility of the box being Jax's box with the moon's name in it. But it is clear in the book that the box was made of iron, was small enough to fit in Jax's hand and had a clasp and a lid. The loeclos box however is made of wood, is as big as a breadbox, and has no clasp or lid. I think the loeclos box might have the moon box but it wouldnt be particularly dangerous. Not so much that it needs to be locked away.
So im going for the Chandrian.

I personally like the theory that it is part of the reason Ctheah is trapped at the tree. I've seen some interesting ideas around the forum on that and they are my favorite.
Plus, the wood of the box is described similarly to the wood of the tree Ctheah is tied to...I should see if I can pull one of those theories for you to read.

Hmm. Worth considering. But if that was the case wouldn't the.... Guardians? Have protected it as they protected the cthae? In the fae world. Bast was astounded that kvothe hadn't been slain by them for coming a single step close to it. I cant seem to remember if the wood was connected to the cthae. Was it?

The Tree - 'the leaves stirred I smelled a strange, sweet smell. It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon'

The Box - 'It was dark enough to be roah, but it had a deep red grain. What’s more, it seemed to be a spicewood. It smelled faintly of . . . something. A familiar smell I couldn’t quite put my finger on. I lowered my face to its surface and breathed in deeply through my nose, something almost like lemon."

Oh. Yes. You're right. It might be the cthae. But it doesn't explain the fae guards not destroying it. Interesting though. I'll keep it in mind.
Though I'm still leaning towards the chandrian theory.

I think there is a sympathy link bewteen the tree and box and that what binds the Cthae to the tree. Destroy/Open the box, free the Cthae

Yep, Kenneth, I was thinking it was something like that, but couldn't remember exactly.

But yes, you wouldn't want to destroy the box, and it wouldn't necessarily be in Fae, remember Fae was created after the Four Corners already existed. Likely Ctheah was trapped in Fae, but was not always there. Namers and Shapers from the Four Corners created Fae, so it could stand to reason, especially if it involves sympathy (something we haven't actually seen Fae practice regularly or culturally) that a mortal did it and passed the guardianship down through the generations of his/her family. If the box was never in Fae, likely the Sithe would have some trouble looking for it, we haven't seen them policing the mortal world as far as we know, whatsoever.

But bast says that the sithe would come to destroy kvothe if they ever found out about kvothe talking to the cthae. He was really scared of it. And if there is a box that could free the cthae, the sithe must have searched for it through the fae as well as the mortal world. And the lockless box may not be famous but every story speaks of it. Caudicus called it a door. They would have come destroyed the whole lockless family.

Interesting!

All the theories are interesting, and I think all of then are possible. I can not discart any one!

But, there is something that I always think about and never have concluded any idea,... Why the Sithe didn't kill Kvothe?

The Sithe are clearly not infallible more than Kvothe has talked to The Cthae since they have been guarding it. I think of them as doing their best but their task being basically impossible.

Yep, pretty much what Kenneth said, Kvothe isn't the only person to get away with speaking to Ctheah either. Lanre/Haliax spoke to Ctheah and he still roams freely, Jax/Iax spoke to Ctheah and he was free to do enough damage for a time at least before being captured, and it certainly suggested he wasn't killed by any means.
There is even some possibility that Cinder has spoken with Ctheah.

The Sithe do what they can, their are too fully inhabited worlds to deal with.

Also, its an assumption the Sithe would search for the box and take it, you could just as easily assume the Sithe agrees with the Lockless family gaurding it. We really don't know. They may think it's as safe a place as any, they may not know it exists, they may be actively working to take it...impossible to tell. For all we know it may be of no use to anyone outside of the Lockless family and they clearly don't know how to use it. It's pretty suggestive that at least the door can only be opened by someone of that particular bloodline.

I know there were others that talked with Ctheae, but look to them:

Haliax, Iax...

They have a lot of power, maybe the Sithe could not stop them. Or maybe it was before the Sithe protect people from Cthae.

Any case, I think they allowed Kovthe talk to him, or Kvothe is much more important then we suppose.

But why should they have allowed, or why should they have not stoped him?

Perhaps being favored by Felurian has something to do with why Kvothe wasn't killed.

Or perhaps the Sithe had knowledge that Kvothe's meeting with the Cthaeh would/could set in motion a chain of events that would lead to a conclusion they wanted.

Kvothe is by no means weak, he could have destroyed Felurian like 4 scenes previous to meeting Ctheah.
He is one of very few men to have ever even escaped her, and the only one we know who wasn't totally insane afterward.

He's a modern day legend in the 4 corners.

Also, I like the idea that maybe they left him because they knew Felurian favored him, or maybe they even just thought he'd never leave or be driven mad by her.

I also have thought, it's possible the Sithe were just doing something else right then so they didn't catch Kvothe. We have no real way of knowing how large they number.

Also, Haliax didn't go to the Ctheah as Haliax, he went as a mortal, Lanre. He didn't have any special abilities at the time other than being a mighty warrior. He was arguably less capable than Kvothe at the time he spoke with Ctheah.

The sithe could have been distracted. chasing off someone else at the same time. Or he snuck by. But shouldn't fleur have "turned him in" or something after he spoke to it?

She never struck me as one who played by any rules imposed by anyone or anything less than what is natural.

LOL, Shouldn't Bast?
Someone like Felurian, whose been around since before Fae may have a different impression of Ctheah than born and bred fae. As we know, rumors and stories are not always what they seem in this world.

She mostly just seemed concerned about it biting him. So maybe that is an important piece of the puzzle.

the lockless box tied to the cthaeh? count me in!

Ok I have a clueless question...I've been out of the loop... Is there a third book? Or am I totally insane?

Yes, but it's in that damned box that no one can open.

@Eye,

The Bast story was released in the Rogues anthology and the Auri story is coming out later this year The Slow Regard of Silent Things

But Day 3 has not yet been released

I always thought that the box was the one that Jax trapped part of the name of the moon in...

Technically they are described differently.
But I think there is some possibility of the description being off, considering. Or that Jax's box is actually encased in the wooden box.

Completely unsupported by anything just an interesting idea: What if, the box containing the Moon’s name, is in the Loeclos box and Kvothe manages to open it. The troubles in the world, wars, scrael etc are because the “real world” and the Fae are starting to merge back, ungracefully, as one reality again. Now that the moon is free, I assume it would return to 4C pulling the fae back like the moon pulls the tide waters. The Fae seemed a pretty dangerous place for the unwary.

Though I really like the idea of, the wooden box, somehow binding the Cthae to the tree... Yllish sygiltry(sp). The box had script or dots of some sort on it…

I personally I agree it is probably one or the other of those theories, despite them having little support.
They just feel right. I'm more prone to believe the ctheah box, but the moon box one is not bad either and from what I understand has some possibility.

Auri is Kvothe's little Moon Fae

I have just read the books and im sure others have picked up on this but it is not mentioned here, so here it goes...

Kvothe's mum could be Meluan's sister, the fact that she had run off with the Edema Ruh and that Meluan appeared very familiar to Kvothe. If this is true then the box is "rightfully" Kvothe's heirloom.

Anyway that and the fact that the box might be related to the Ctheah (ty kenneth) could be his key to be released from his horrible fate.

It is actually a widely believed theory among the fandom. The thread is in the archives if you'd like to read it, it is horribly long though! LOL.

I've seen some support for Denna being Meluan's sister as well, but I think the majority sway the direction you bring up. I personally think it fits well and is most likely correct. We also know that one of the things required to open the Lackless door is a son who brings the blood, I wouldn't be too surprised if Kvothe plays a roll there since it's come up.

Anywho, yah, I agree.

I feel like Denna is too young to be Meluan's sister, at least i've always read her that way.

I've always read her that way as well, but it can be argued that an age is never given, so *shrug*

I definitely lean more toward Kvothe's mother being Natalia.

Kvothe's mother being Netalia Lackless is practically canon at this point xD

LOL - Yah I feel pretty confident as well. I'll be surprised as hell if that doesn't work out.

But since I hate when people are so adamant about technically non-canon things in other series, (*cough*ASOIAF*cough*) I try not to let that show too much or encourage that attitude. :D

Gabriel wrote: "Kvothe's mother being Netalia Lackless is practically canon at this point xD"

I thought so, but having just finished reading Wise Man's Fear, I joined this group to see the theories. I should do some Kvothing and dig around the archives ;) see what else i missed out on. ty Amber

Yep, feel free to comment in any too, if they start getting discussions in them, Myself or one of the other mods will move them out of retirement. LOL

Caudicus told a story about a door without handle or hinges somewhere on a piece of land beloning to the Lackless family, maybe the box they have has the door knob to that door. What is behind that door I'm not sure.

Okay, I never considered that, but it actually seems fairly logical. LOL.
That'd be really funny.

Natalia wrote: "Caudicus told a story about a door without handle or hinges somewhere on a piece of land beloning to the Lackless family, maybe the box they have has the door knob to that door. What is behind that..."

I've just re-read the books, again, and had a similar thought as Natalia.

I was wondering if the door Caudicus mentions is the same one in the archives.... if the land belonged to the Lackess hundreds of years ago, as I think caudicus said something about the family splitting up and taking different names. As the family divided they moved away from each other and over the centuries some family names died out and would have lost their land. (or perhaps a part of the family created the university?)

not sure if there is any other evidence to support this, (besides two mentions of a mysterious door must mean they are the same!)

Btw you don't think Caudicus is really dead, do you?

While re-reading the book 2, I came across this paragraph in chapter 32 (I think), where (view spoiler)[ they are planning to do something bad to Ambrose, and Fela is involved. There Fela says the following dialog to Devi:-

"I had to walk back from Imre," Fela explained. "Sim came to meet me halfway. Don't worry mother, he was a perfect gentleman." (hide spoiler)]

So is Devi mother of Fela, or is this some literary device ??

I think she was being sarcastic? But you never know!

Ali wrote: I thought so, but having just finished reading Wise Man's Fear, I joined this group to see the theorie..."

You might want to check out the TOR reread and the series' subreddit, both of them are really good and full of theories.

Alan wrote: "Btw you don't think Caudicus is really dead, do you?"

There are so many ways the story could go, though, it's pretty much pure wild speculation. You could think he's alive and an Amyr like Dagon and working with him, you could think he was working with the Chandrian who wanted to kill the Maer for unknown reasons, etc etc. We don't have any sort of hints, only a suspicious event (specially for readers like us seek things between the lines).

Akshay wrote: "While re-reading the book 2, I came across this paragraph in chapter 32 (I think), where they are planning to do something bad to Ambrose, and Fela is involved. There Fela says the following dialo..."

Nah, they know each other from the University, their ages are not far off. Probably a joke about how protective Devi was being with Fela.

Does anyone think that the thing inside the lackless box holds, a philosophers stone of sorts maybe Denna's necklace "made of a pale green stone" like the enchanted flute "made of a pale green stone" that had the power to call the moon used by iax..Taborlin had an amulet that protected him from bad things.

The philosophers stone is believed to be created by the moon goddess in modern myth, the moon goodess(lady lackless)is believed to bear the giving and taking of life.. So if lanre is Taborlin he would have wanted to marry Cyphus's daughter.(got this conclusion by paralleling kvothe's "chronicler" escape story from king cyphus with taborlins escape from king cyphus..Lyra would be cyphus's daughter considering all the myths of a high born daughter running away with a peasant/ruh(lanre).

But Cyphus was the wisest king of all and would have known of the philosophers stones existance and would make Taborlin promise to get him it("The king was wise, and knew if he could get taborlin to promise to work for him he would have to do whatever the king said, because taborlin never broke a promise" - paraphrased Cob) but might not have told Lanre what the stone does, then when Lanre/Chronicler goes "searching the four corners of the world for secret magics to bring back to the king" he would have asked Cthaeh of it and found it... Then Lanre/Taborlin would find and eat the sinus fruit and know the names of all things and see into the deepest hearts of people..It would make sense if they locked the philosophers stone in the lackless box. What better heirloom than a philosphers stone created by the moon.. Maaaaaybe, the IAX story isnt really about stealing the moon and loving her, maybe its about pulling the moon to the fae in hopes to draw the world closer to the fae so Cthaeh can attain the philosopher stone(he is completely malicious)..If this is true chandrian might actually work against the Cthaeh keeping the stone away from him and explain why cinder did the cthaeh wrong one time and cthaehs excitement to hear that Kvothe might kill Chandrian aiding cthaeh in retrieving the stone..So if the Sithe kill anyone who has talked to the cthaeh it might be because the cthaeh is trying to get someone to retrieve the stone and the sithe dont want that. And since the Philosophers stone is what grants rebirth and eternal life it would be the most sacred thing to the Ruach/Lackless. "Their are no books that talk of the lackless box." And since there is an old river that ran through the university(ThroughBottom chasm) it could be that they were using the "huge gear machines" and water power from the river to conduct electricity into the big iron slab and copper pillars to somehow draw power from or to create the philosophers stone.. And that would explain the four plate door..

After the philosophers stone was created or drawn power from, A ciridae would cause some great event with the destroy or over heating the room would have happened to stop the user of the stone and the door would be used to seal whoever used it or drew from it(Cthaeh/Iax) in an attempt to save the world or whatever..Finally we have the answer to the Ciridae quote "if he were to burn a church(ciridae setting fire to the cathedral room, throughbottom, during the event of creating or drawing from the philosopher stone) or break an old stone bridge(Taborlin/Chronicler trapped in a completely stone room and escaping)no one would hold him accountable, knowing whatever he did was for the greater good.

Thus Vorfelan Rhinata Morie. we know that morie means shaper or shaping(glamorie, gramorie/"'he desire for knowledge SHAPES a man'or something like that") and we know that Vorfelan means land of fel or land of desire because fel means desire in latin and felurian sings Vorruhlan in her song before kvothe runs for her meaning land of Ruh or land of Sould because ruh or ruah is soul. Thus we know rhinata is something to do with knowledge becuase rhin is a alternate spelling of Rune with are stones that hold "True Knowledge" or "complete knowledge" like a tree of Sinus fruit.. So we know the door holds a tree or land of sinus fruit or desire fruit and what better place for E to almost kill himself"god it almost killed me" he would have got in ate a fruit learned the names of all thing or ways of seeing listening feeling them and would go insane and be locked in haven.. Then still having the knowledge hed have broken out.. It all makes sense. "no one talks about it" Sorry if that was confusing

How about a name? Like Jax' box?