Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Deception is called Deception because it is Deceptive!
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People who use bible verses out of biblical context.
I agree, Rod. Especially Matthew 7:1 about "judging".
Rod wrote: "People who use bible verses out of biblical context."How about people who DON'T even use the Bible? They just want followers based on the weight of their opinions.
Fundamental cultists who believe you must believe the entire Bible to be saved when Jesus says the only requirement is to believe in His divinity, death and resurrection as atonement.
It depends on which century you were alive in as to what canon of scripture was complete. I'm pretty sure we got it sorted out now - but skepticism isn't really a Hell worthy offence.
Good point Wade: the bible is a huge book of judgement.
We all judge - atheist and theist. On the other hand, Robert C. seems to have a penchant for creating a reactionary straw man, then attacking it with an unsettling passion and arrogance. I suspect he's had some serious legalists somewhere in his past.
Robert wrote: "Fundamental cultists who believe you must believe the entire Bible to be saved when Jesus says the only requirement is to believe in His divinity, death and resurrection as atonement."My response: Where does Jesus say this? Jesus endorses the entire Old Testament as the Word of God... and tells us we MUST live by it.
Please quote Jesus saying what you allege He said.
But we gentiles don't need to live by much of the Old Testament. It is rather Jewish.
Rod wrote: "But we gentiles don't need to live by much of the Old Testament. It is rather Jewish."My response: I did not say it... JESUS DID!
Jesus was NOT talking to Jews... He quoted it in self-defense against satan....
Jesus did NOT say that Jews MUST live by every word... He said that MAN MUST...
So you're saying I should absolutely and blindly obey every verse of the Old Testament?
Rod wrote: "So you're saying I should absolutely and blindly obey every verse of the Old Testament?"IN CONTEXT...
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."2ndCor.11:3Deception is not something to be taken lightly considering the following scriptures:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." That's a lot of deception. " And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rather than being smug about it I think it is a topic to consider because the deception will be so great it says that if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I think our purpose needs to ensure that we are of the very elect. Making our calling and election sure as the scripture says. Blessings.........don't all yell at me at once. lol
Laurette wrote: ""ather than being smug about it I think it is a topic to consider because the deception will be so great it says that if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I think our purpose needs to ensure that we are of the very elect. Making our calling and election sure as the scripture says...."My response: If I am understanding you accurately, I agree... no yelling from me!
Rod wrote: "You said it: "Context"!!!!!!!!"My response: ABSOLUTELY! In context with the Bible... NOT in context with your favorite teachers opinions!
Sometimes we need our favourite preachers/teachers opinions to even comprehend context.The Bible is not a simple short book. God's word is eternally deep and confusing to most of humanity. The world's greatest theologians have been endlessly debating for two thousand years.
God doesn't just give us the clear truth. What fun would that be?!
I deal with Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, and atheists (and liberals) who endlessly quote the Bible. God won't force us to believe His truth: but when our heart is right He will guide us and correct our insanities.
Robert, you assume you are somehow above the debate, why is that?
Rod wrote: "Sometimes we need our favourite preachers/teachers opinions to even comprehend context.The Bible is not a simple short book. God's word is eternally deep and confusing to most of humanity. The wo..."
My response: When the Bible is SO CLEAR that a fourth grader can readily understand it... it is sheer eisegetical folly to FORCE it to say something else.
Rod wrote: "The world's greatest theologians have been endlessly debating for two thousand years..."So why do you IMMEDIATELY DISMISS legitimate theologians who disagree with your opinions? (eisegesis)
Indeed, some issues fourth graders can easily grasp. But many they cannot - especially not when being challenged. Otherwise every Cult with a bible would easily empty out. As would Catholic and charismatic churches. And as you say: Calvinistic churches.
Rod wrote: "God doesn't just give us the clear truth. What fun would that be?! ..."My response: DISAGREE! I believe God WANTS us to KNOW truth and He rewards those who diligently seek Him with it...
I believe this...
John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth..."
Rod wrote: "Robert, you assume you are somehow above the debate, why is that?"My response: This is a FALSE STATEMENT!
I am above debating with those who desire debate based on OPINIONS... TEACHINGS OF OTHERS... THE BIBLE AS INTERPRETED BY OTHERS... anything EXCEPT the BIBLE.
Bring the Bible to the discussion and we can talk...
To me it is the height of hubris to think the Bible is somehow LACKING and is in NEED of some HUMAN TEACHERS to illuminate it for us.
YES, that happens...
...NO, it is NOT mandatory!
Rod wrote: "Indeed, some issues fourth graders can easily grasp. But many they cannot - especially not when being challenged..."My response: So why do you REJECT the simple ones?
Many only appear simple to the simpleminded.
Rod wrote: "Many only appear simple to the simpleminded."My response: Ask ANY un-indoctrinated fourth grader what this means... and I suspect 100% agreement...
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."
Indeed, let me pick a 100 other verses: and you'll see that their simple uneducated reactions will be very wrong. Take the Nephilim verse for instance. Or the pluck out your eye verse.
Rod wrote: "Indeed, let me pick a 100 other verses: and you'll see that their simple uneducated reactions will be very wrong. Take the Nephilim verse for instance. Or the pluck out your eye verse."
My response: GIVE ME 100 verses that CLEARLY support your OPINIONS. Problem is, that you have ZERO verses... and so you toss up DIVERSIONS such as Nephilim and eye-plucking!
Learn a little Greek grammar (even English grammar would be helpful!)
Rod - no less a theological philosopher than C.S. Lewis said he had no methodology to evaluate the veracity of Old Testament verses, only New Testament ones because Jesus said he was uniquely given the authority and ability to perform them.
Robert wrote: "Rod - no less a theological philosopher than C.S. Lewis said he had no methodology to evaluate the veracity of Old Testament verses, only New Testament ones because Jesus said he was uniquely given..."My response: If Jesus ENDORSED the Old Testament as SCRIPTURE...
...I don't care who says otherwise... THEY ARE SCRIPTURE!
Robert - well, we agree on something - Jesus endorsed Scripture. However, he only knew what the Father vouchsafed to him and not whether all the Old Testament was true. Thus, he endorsed the fable of Jonah being swallowed by the fish when realistically he was clinging to ship's timber for 3 days.
Robert wrote: "Robert - well, we agree on something - Jesus endorsed Scripture. However, he only knew what the Father vouchsafed to him and not whether all the Old Testament was true. Thus, he endorsed the fable ..."My response: LOL!!!! Your FALSE Jesus is PITIFUL if He believed LIES!
YOU claim to KNOW MORE THAN JESUS!
The topic being deception, bringing it back in focus and seriously, The Bible warns us over and over again about deception, deceivers, deceiving and being deceived and that the deception would be so great...........I think looking into this world system we know that satan is the god of this world with a little g, and those of us who know The Truth and can discern the signs of the times and distinguish between good and evil have a responsibility not to shy away from difficult topics with unbelievers, haters, and those who want to put labels on Christians and everyone who disagrees with their perversions, warped thinking, mass indoctrination of the children, and the passing of laws designed to put gag orders on those who call themselves Christians. Meanwhile our brothers and sisters all over the world are dying for their faith in Christ Jesus, like this weekend in Nigeria but for the most part the silence from the pulpits is deafening. Deception is sweeping the planet, and the enemy would like us to strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
Laurette wrote: "The topic being deception, bringing it back in focus and seriously, The Bible warns us over and over again about deception, deceivers, deceiving and being deceived and that the deception would be s..."My response: Good stuff Laurette!
Studying "deception" in the Bible always makes me wonder how some Christians can take it so lightly?
satan is not represented in the Bible by the letter "g" but the letter "J" for Jehovah (not even a valid translation of Yahweh) and full of deception. Here are the qualities of the false god Jehovah: Fascist (not democratic) Genocide (the murder of refugees) Killing (of pets) Slavery (ready to start the civil war all over again?) Angry and vindictive, unforgiving and hateful. All these points I can prove in the Old Testament; do you see anything here that is Divine ? Jai ! Jai ! El Shaddai !
G. wrote: "All these points I can prove in the Old Testament; do you see anything here that is Divine ? ..."My response: Thanks for your OPINION... I see you offer NO SCRIPTURE.
Looks like another Islamist troll can actually use a mouse. And I thought all they could do was place their nose on the ground as close to the butt of the person in front of them as possible.
G. wrote: "satan is not represented in the Bible by the letter "g" but the letter "J" for Jehovah (not even a valid translation of Yahweh) and full of deception. Here are the qualities of the false god Jehova..."Angry much?
Robert wrote: "Robert - well, we agree on something - Jesus endorsed Scripture. However, he only knew what the Father vouchsafed to him and not whether all the Old Testament was true. Thus, he endorsed the fable ..."That doesn't sound right, If we look at the gospel of John chapter 1:1-2"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." and verse 14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" NOW if you follow this further verse 3 says "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." So in the beginning was the Word, and we establish through scripture that Jesus is The Word and it also said all things were made by Him. So if you go to Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and we read in the Book of The Revelation 4 times Jesus is called Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Seems rather reasonable that The Word who made all things, was there in the beginning and is The Alpha and Omega would know The Word, beginning to end. Blessings
Laurette - consider the verse "This is my son of whom I am most proud." Why would God say that if Jesus was merely his earthly extension? Why would Satan bother tempting Jesus if he was the untemptable Yahweh incarnate? Why did Jesus say only the Father knows when he would return? My conclusion is the fully God/fully human Jesus was indeed a child who had to learn Scripture growing up. In order not to contradict God, he was not told what parts of Scripture were erroneous. When he started his ministry, God provided more knowledge, but not the full arsenal. This in no way diminishes the divinity of our Lord, nor the teachings he provided for us to adhere to. When he returns, God will direct the precise width and breadth of his new terrestrial adventure!
Robert wrote: "In order not to contradict God, he was not told what parts of Scripture were erroneous. ..."My response: LOL!!!! You think that you KNOW MORE THAN JESUS!
You NEED to repent and come to the TRUE JESUS of the Bible.
Robert - at least I try to define precisely who he was and what he was about instead of just "see passage, believe passage" characteristic of ignorant Fundamental cultists.
Robert wrote: "Robert - at least I try to define precisely who he was and what he was about instead of just "see passage, believe passage" characteristic of ignorant Fundamental cultists."My response: YOU are the CULT member. True Christians believe God and His Word, the Bible... CULTISTS believe THEIR OWN NONSENSE and PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS and REJECTIONS of the Bible.
Robert - how many actual mountains have you moved in your lifetime, Robert?
Robert wrote: "Robert - how many actual mountains have you moved in your lifetime, Robert?"My response: As many as God has called me to move!
Why do you REJECT that which the TRUE Jesus of the Bible ACCEPTS?
Jesus was highly aware of the deceptive powers of satan, and thus He WARNED the men that He personally trained to BEWARE of DECEPTION .
Most DECEIVERS appear to be genuine. They often come across as very "loving" and "caring". They make their doctrines sound Biblical (i.e. deceptive)... BUT they contain very SUBTLE twists and contortions of the truth... which make them LIES .
What dangerous deceptions have you encountered?
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